Interesting that I know little music theory as I only started learning the harmonica 2 years ago as my first instrument. Not sure how to start on the music theory journey. Any thoughts timeistight?
That whole prescription/description discipline thing is brilliant. Early iny experiments I was caught in the prescriptive mode, which lead me to a few blind alleys. It took me a long time to understand the descriptive nature as applied to different musical aesthetics. ----------
All of the jam hacks I used to spend time with don't know anything at all about theory, or music fundamentals, etc. Just as Adam Neely says, they're all proud of not knowing. You can guess how they all sound.
I too echo what Jlnx said. The prescriptive/descriptive concept is brilliant.
When have you ever heard a good musician say, "Man, I really wish I knew less." ???
As a group, harp players are fools to not learn about music. I know because I was one of those fools.
"Not sure how to start on the music theory journey. Any thoughts timeistight?"
I've actually been thinking about this question all day and I decided that most important thing is just to start. Take some lessons, read a book, sign up for a community college course, steal a keyboard, pick a brain, watch some videos, etc.
Try not to be in too much of a hurry, though. I don't think you ever reach a point where you can't learn something new about music.
How to start? Bluesharmonica.com David Barrett has a whole series of videos on music theory and how it relates to harmonica. Keep in mind he was a music major in college plus he's a damn fine player and teacher. The theory lessons (like all the lessons on his site) are well organized and easy to follow. Quite painless really.
I agree LSB. David Barrett is one of the best sources for understanding music theory for the harp. The harp is very much different from many other instruments in its diatonic nature and accordingly, to learn music theory from a more general aspect is rather daunting and often pointless. Not to discourage looking far afield for theory, but most needed knowledge can be found within the bounds of the harp community like Barrett and similar.
The other resource that is well liked by many is Harmonica for Dummies (and Blues H...). It has a great deal of theory along with many practical aspects of various different topics of music for the harmonica. The author does not talk down to the reader. I really is quite comprehensive.
But simply reading only goes so far. One has to think and practice to internalize theory. Particularly for the aspects of positions and related scales / intervals, etc. The toy that we play is a bit more complicated than what most of the world thinks it is. For sure.
For me, it's like the notes have T-shirts on that say who they are. It's all ears, try obsessing over how the notes relate to one another. Lately I have been playing the OTRA harp a lot--that would be the A diatonic with draw 7 tuned up a half step. A lot of what I am doing tho is just playing draw 1 and 2, then blow 3, long tones--or draw bending 3 or 2 and trying to get that great pitch vibrato. And listen, listen, listen. And think about what notes you are playing. Not just letter names, notes of the scale, notes of the chord, flavors (roots and fifths taste different from thirds).
I don't like the way some insist it is necessary and everyone should do it. Why do some people want to boss people around and try to make them feel inadequate? What if people are happy playing at the level they are at? Music is a personal thing, and people should be able to make up their own minds without being pushed.
I think people shouldn't worry about theory and just do what they want regarding their music.
You don't need to study music theory...
unless you want to improve your musicality, your understanding of music, your communication with other musicians, and improve your playing beyond your current limitations.
;>)
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 14, 2016 2:48 PM
I do think that if you choose to learn theory you need to study theory at your own pace, always pushing yourself a little beyond your comfort level, but not trying to swallow it all at once and choking on theory. Taken as a whole it can seem overwhelming.
Also, I have encountered some who are so steeped in theory that they neglect the actual process of playing music and improving their playing.
It just doesn't work to be able to give in depth theory descriptions with WORDS and not have the musicality to be able to play.
Well done is better than well said. ~Benjamin Franklin ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 14, 2016 9:05 AM
Thanks for posting Timeistight. I really liked his mention that Notation “language saves time and reduces ambiguity”. “The same way people take pride in not knowing history or world events or science, they take pride in not knowing the inner working of music”. It’s fine to not know something but to celebrate that fact ...”
Wherein he decries the written score in that musicians are sometimes judged on their ability to reproduce a piece v. improvising abilities and all. It gives us music that is really BORING. No art, texture, interesting, etc. He mentions reading music while listening to it being fun. Well, I am not sure about that but it certainly can be instructional at times. Some of this goes a bit over my head but I get the idea. In particular, the notation to the visual or graphical aspects of power and direction is very interesting.
But in the end, Doug is right. Knowing music theory is up to the player. It should be fun if that is the principal reason you play music. Different strokes ...
Last Edited by Shaganappi on Dec 14, 2016 9:18 AM
This made me cry I've been SCREAMING stuff like this here on this forum for years! Thank you Timestight this made me cry, laugh and smile. ---------- www.mooncat.org
Just as Jason AKA Moon Cat has been saying that for years, so have I as well, but unfortunately, many harp players are just too damned hard headed to bother and this along with getting their time straightened out are MAJOR reasons why those who play other instruments will ALWAYS be dissing them and think of them as really lousy musicians who just don't know jack. If you learn some basic thoery, your chances out working your way out of a mistake and not embarrassing yourself gets reduced dramatically and if you're in a band and they start doing tunes that aren't in the usual 1-4-5 changes, you're gonna be able to adjust damned near automatically and not have the deer in the headlights look on your face that I often see many harp players tend to have, especially in a lot of open jams.
BTW, Seydel actually has a book out now that does discuss theory for harp players in a step by step way that should be very helpful:
I would say it's highly dependent upon what your goals are in picking up the harp. If you hope to some day be on the bandstand with other real musicians gigging regularly, semi-regularly or even occasionally, you're definitely doing yourself a huge disservice in not trying to learn some theory.
But everyone who buys a harp doen't necessarliy have this as a goal. It all has to be viewed in the context that, for most of us, the time spent with this instrument isn't infinite. An hour delving into theory is an hour not spent perfecting bends, warbles, trying to learn a new riff or piece from a reallly cool song you heard. Or just blowing for the fun of it.
Early on, the acid test for me was asking myself the question: Would I rather be able to get up at an open mike, jam, party or sit in and do a credible job on a couple of tunes - or wax philosophically amongst a group of music fans/musicians at a cocktail party what was happening in bar four of some piece of music we all liked. The answer for me was the former, so virtually all of my time was spent playing (or trying to).
But over time, as I got more serious about it, I realized I'd have to spend some time learning theory. And by the way, we're tossing the word theory around casually, and it can mean alot of things. Is knowing where every note on every key harp is, knowing "theory"? I would think even a casual semi-serious hobbyist would want to know at least that.
Lastly, Michael Rubin's youtube videos - excellent resource for learning some theory as it applies to the diatonic. Learning theory can only help you, can't hurt you. It's up to you.
Oh yeah, the "proud of not knowing phenomena" is stupidly funny. I've never ever pretended that I shouldn't know any theory. Reminds me of the story/joke one of our members posted a while ago (as best as I can recollect):
New band member: I just play what I feel. Music legend: Well feel something in E, motherfucker.
That one always cracks me up. Don't be that guy.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Dec 14, 2016 11:28 AM
RE: "Everyone who buys a harp" Most folks try it for a few minutes, then decide it's too much work. Be careful having a casual conversation with me about theory, you might find yourself "drinking from the firehose" LOL
Also, RE: blowing for the fun of it. Make sure you don't subject an innocent bystander to this phenomenon--not until you can make sense of it. But hey, that's just me.
@Honkin I am often surprised by players who tell me they don't know what notes are on which holes--in any way. As in, "Oh, I don't do all that technical stuff." Different strokes indeed . . .
I don't like the way some insist it is necessary and everyone should do it. Why do some people want to boss people around and try to make them feel inadequate? What if people are happy playing at the level they are at? Music is a personal thing, and people should be able to make up their own minds without being pushed.
dougharps
The "should" was in Adam Neely's title, but I used it so I guess I'll own it.
When I say you "should" learn music theory, I don't mean like "there should be a law that all harmonica players must pass a Music Theory course or be sent to re-education camps in northern Alberta". I mean like "you should check out the new pizza place downtown" or "you should go see Jason Ricci if he's playing near you". In other words, "here's cool thing that will improve your life and that I think you will enjoy!"
Last Edited by timeistight on Dec 14, 2016 4:02 PM
If you read my whole post then you know that I DO believe in learning some theory. I had encountered theory here and there, but when I went to my first SPAH in St. Louis in 2008, that was one of my goals: to start learning more about theory. Michael Rubin was there and got me started on that journey.
The first part of my post was not aimed at you in particular, but was more of a reaction to everybody jumping on the "MUST LEARN THEORY!" bandwagon. Not everyone who wants to occasionally play needs to learn a lot of theory. But if you plan on being even an amateur musician, you will need at least SOME theory to get by. Even choosing a key of harp for a song requires some theory!
Some people just get defensive, dig in their heels, and cling to the idea of playing by feel alone when theory is brought up. I have learned to stop myself when I see eyes glaze over as I am answering questions with with a little theory related to harmonica. And I am not advanced in my theory knowledge relative to many!
I have adopted the approach of mentioning that there are benefits to learning some theory, but I do not tell people that they NEED to study it. I figure that if they persist in playing harmonica, they will eventually come to recognize the need in their own time. So I don't press, I offer gentle encouragement, and try to a few offer simple ideas at most.
It is sort of like the fable when the Sun and North Wind make a bet about trying to get a traveler to take off his jacket. The more the North Wind blew, the tighter the traveler held on to his jacket. A bit of warmth from the sun, and the jacket came off.
PS I do stand by my second post that talking theory about music is not the same as playing music. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 14, 2016 2:50 PM
I don't think a lot of people realize what a powerful aid to understanding theory a diatonic instrument can be. Just by using one for a while, you will gain an intuitive understanding of how various scales relate to one another. A bit of formal study of what is going on can really accelerate the usable musical principles you have access to.
I have the utmost respect for musicians, whether they are formally trained or oblivious to theory. Musicians are artists. The creative results are not governed by understanding. So I disagree with the closing remarks of the rant.
I grew up with a music education and do appreciate that, but:
“Why you should learn music theory?” Although the video spent more time on the subject of theory rather than “Why learn it”. The best reason is to better communicate with conductors and other musicians... But, if you have no need or very little need for that type of communication, and if you do not aspire to read or write music… then there is little point in learning much theory.
I’m afraid the speaker would not have much respect for me because I basically chucked all of my formal music education when I started playing the harmonica. I tried my best to forget about notation and theory, and just focused my attention to simply hearing music in my head and making it happen.
I currently play for my own pleasure so I have very little use for theory at this point. But as for example, I learned to play by ear using the “Solfege movable do” system. And with that bit of theory there is no reason for me to go into a lengthy description of how I hear sounds rather than think in notes...
Keep in mind that there are plenty of brilliant musicians around the world that have never studied music theory.
But hey I had to study it. So, learn some theory and learn how to read notation especially if you plan to play with others. At that point I believe there is some obligation. It’s really not that big of a deal.
The harp is a "Moveable Do" instrument, no doubt about it. And with all its microtonality, trying to notate harmonica can be more trouble than it's worth. But ya ought to at least know the do re mi, in straight and cross. I have encountered harps players who did not realize that blow three is the same as draw two--ay ay ay . . .
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 14, 2016 10:56 PM
I like the Descriptive definition - I think the same is true of lots of areas of study - Mathematics for instance! It's not reality it describes reality!
I am in my mid fifties with two kids and a full on job. I teach myself music because I enjoy both the music and the learning. However, no one is going to pay me to play and this is just a game for me so I have to be realistic about my investment (time, thinking).
I struggled with theory for a bit. Eventually I read How Music Works by John Powell and that answered a lot of questions for me - I now feel like I know enough so that I understand what is happening some of the time.
There is always more to learn but I am focusing on being more intuitive in my playing and having enough theory to significantly impact on that, will probably take more time than I have or am willing to commit - so I am letting my unconscious drive it.
One of the attractive things about the blues is that the 12 bar format was developed so that relatively uneducated musicians could play together without having to learn new chord progressions etc.
I once asked a very competent blues guitarist whether that was a C# minor chord - he did the 'rabbit in the headlights' look and said - "its not about all that, its about emotion."
I can do academia, I have licences, degrees and stuff - trying to move on from all that.
For me the distinction between descriptive and prescriptive looks far too simplistic. Musicians often use rules and patterns to compose and improvise. It's not as simple as 'from the heart and described afterwards'.
E.g. Tone Row.
Blues musicians aren't so freewheeling - they're following rules all the time, how many turnarounds have you heard in your life? How many minor 7ths played leading to a chord change?
bublnsqueak, I'm also not comfortable with your description of maths :) That's engineering maths, that is. Real maths is it's own reality, disconnected with everyday reality - touching it in places :) Maybe for another forum!
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 15, 2016 2:27 AM
I know GPS has made them obsolete,but music theory is like a road map. If you are in familiar territory that you know well,you don't need a map.You know where and when the turns are coming. But when in unfamiliar territory,you need the map to know where/when the turns are coming.You still have to negotiate the turns with the proper speed and timing.
It's not the end all be all far as I can tell. Plenty of harmonica players haven't studied any theory or specific timing practice who are getting gigs and plenty who have studied and practiced theory that will have no performance opportunity in the foreseeable future. Whether or not one of these performers is better then the other in a performance setting is a matter of opinion. It can up your game but doesn't necessarily make it better then someone else's game who hasn't studied/practiced at least in harmonica land.
If you study music theory (for itself - not harmonica music theory), your listening to all types of music will become much more interesting and enjoyable. ---------- The Iceman
Ah, music theory - my favorite topic for late night reading. Nothing puts me to sleep faster! But necessary to provide context for your playing and relating to other musicians. Also good for breaking rules. Personally, it's helped me play outside as much as possible. I like to be as discordant as possible, while still in the box. But I can't do it if I don't have an understanding of the box in the first place.
@dchurch A couple of phrases in your post really resonated with me:
"I tried my best to forget about notation and theory, and just focused my attention to simply hearing music in my head and making it happen."
and
"...no reason for me to go into a lengthy description of how I hear sounds rather than think in notes..."
I use theory to inform my playing, but when I am playing I think of the sound I want to hear at that point in the flow of the music, not the names of notes or intervals, or what hole, blow or draw or bend. I hear the chords, but I don't name the chords in the process. I believe that I am using a different part of my brain than the part that uses language to name.
This approach has allowed me to play with fluidity and spontaneity, and garnered a fair share of compliments from listeners and musicians.
Occasionally this approach has lead me into habitual errors that a greater awareness of theory as I play could have prevented.
When an error in playing habits becomes apparent through my own awareness that something is wrong or through help from a teacher, I practice to eliminate it.
I believe that knowledge of theory is a necessary component to developing as a musician, but it is not sufficient to assure development in and of itself. ----------
Some people seem to be born with a fantastic musical facility, like a gift. Once walking down the street I heard this little voice beautifully singing some popular show tune melody. I looked and it was a little toddler in a stroller. The mom and myself both were both astonished by the obviously great talent in this kid.
People like her can have a rich musical experience without any prescription. People like me need a heavy dose. Even singing a simple blues melody, I'm picturing intervals and measured bars in my mind. However, after I get going, that crutch seems to disappear.
Concerning harp players shunning theory, well that's because Herr Richter has applied it for them ; ) ----------
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Last Edited by JInx on Dec 15, 2016 9:24 AM
I am not representative of the blues harmonica player--but I try my best not to force anything on players. I will sometimes say things that folks don't follow, of course. Whadda expect from a guy who calls himself Gnarly? A little theory goes a long way--learn your instrument, and music will start to make more sense to you.
I think it great if this works for you and I support it 100%. I am a total discovery player and love the discovery process and to put thinking to it kills Spontobeat. I prefer to be simple and ignorant so to speak. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I have always liked to know how stuff works. This tune uses lots of scales that you can analyse. You may hear: A blues scale, Aminor petatonic, A harmonica Minor, A Dorian and the outline of A minor major 7 9 chord.
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Last Edited by Diggsblues on Dec 17, 2016 5:47 AM
