Udderkuz03
77 posts
Oct 24, 2016
7:06 PM
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Traded my bugera v5 & line6 spideriv 75watt plus money for a hot rod deville 4x10..the discovery I made was that after hearing so much about small apartment, use small amps..well this fender deville is so smooth and pleasant sounding @ #2 volume (through a zoom g5n) it goes against what a lot of people say..May be a case of acoustics but two mics...ultimate 545 & green bullet both sound good and doesn't make you paranoid of neighbors..works well with guitars...years listening to little amp struggle to sound good and then this..lol..took a while finally am on right track...'https://goo.gl/photos/hwpbhk2hSb7NywS99
Last Edited by Udderkuz03 on Oct 24, 2016 7:18 PM
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SuperBee
4210 posts
Oct 25, 2016
1:52 PM
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Yeah cool. I've been using an HRD 410 for a few years now. Mine is 19 years old. Made in USA. Export model (240 VAC)
The only reason I'm thinking about another big amp is to have a backup. Oh yeah sometimes I think about something that is a bit easier to carry.
I generally use bullet mics with it. I've modified the preamp but even before that I found it was quite useable when plugged into number 2 input.
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1847
3769 posts
Oct 26, 2016
8:29 AM
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am i missing something? he is using a 60 watt amp in his apartment because a small amp does not have the "tone"
first i question the sanity of using an amplifier in an apartment. a 5 watt amp is not loud enough to annoy the neighbors?
i would suggest wrapping a micocloth around the harmonica to deaden the sound.
i have a champ and a bassman here at work, after work i will use the champ to loop a 2 chord vamp with the guitar
then i will play acoustically. no need to amp the harmonica. although i could if i decided to. as it would not bother the neighbors.
the trick to getting a good amplified tone is by getting a great acoustic tone. and that takes work!
it is very easy to fool yourself into believing you have great acoustic tone when in fact many people do not.
the mic. and amp has very little to do with it. it is the icing on the cake, if you do not have a cake, there is no need for icing.
i would suggest watching adams video on embouchure, that is the key to good amplified tone.
Last Edited by 1847 on Oct 26, 2016 8:31 AM
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Greg Heumann
3287 posts
Oct 26, 2016
8:53 AM
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As a RULE, small amps have more crunch, small amps sound better in the studio. Large amps are cleaner. SOME are amps sound good when turned way down. If your amp does - you are a lucky man. The Sonny Jr Avenger also sounds good turned down (more than the Four-Ten did).
Rules are meant to be broken.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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Killa_Hertz
1839 posts
Oct 27, 2016
4:06 AM
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My small amps sound great. What do you mean "struggle to sound good"?
In a live situation perhaps. But I think they are perfect for home playing. Actually I use my VHT on the low power setting and my VOX on the 1.5w setting MOST of the time.
I wouldnt know what to do (at home) with all that amp.
I actually put a 12AU7 (instead of the 12ax7) in my VOX last night and it sounds great now. I can peg it at 10 and get a super warm power tube breakup. Then I use my dm2 delay with the sonic stomp to bring out the details. Really sounds amazing. IMO.
Udder
Are you playing more on the clean side or more distorted? I would think that amp at 2 would still be pretty clean. But I've never really used anything bigger than 5 watt, so I'm curious.
The reason I havent even looked at bigger amp choices yet is because I didnt think I could really even use them at home. Without getting the cops called.
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Goldbrick
1668 posts
Oct 27, 2016
11:35 AM
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I have several amps ( too many) but I never plug in at home.
I just play acoustically- If I want some reverb I will sit in the hallway.
I do amp for gigs but still play pretty clean- I just switch mics
Fireball or sm57 for clean jt30 for crunch
I think guys worry about amps and pedals too much and not enuff about mic choice
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Udderkuz03
82 posts
Oct 27, 2016
1:51 PM
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To killa hertz..both..but I think I said I use a zoom g5n, so that allows for a lot of different tones amp Sims cab sims ,effects..so that there says a mouthful..lol...as for why amp i guess I'm still a big kid.lol..just like excitement..my problem now at 68,is teeth falling out slowly affect embouchure..plus a partial plate that doesn't fit anymore..too much air escape through "holes-spaces"..the amp and pedal with a a little gain allows for little breath to get going...1847...i believe that th effects loop helps with feedback and good tones from pedals..i can go right into the power section of the deville and by pass the preamp and use the zoom g5n as the preamp and amp SIM which is a preamp I guess, at least it adds color and eq..as for small amp poor tone "struggling", I believe I had an acoustic problem with humidity and cluttered space...old harmonicas $5 blues band...worn guitar strings..it seemed like some days it played good but mostly muddy or on the verge of feedback...
Last Edited by Udderkuz03 on Oct 27, 2016 5:44 PM
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shakeylee
590 posts
Oct 27, 2016
2:01 PM
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I don't plug in at home either.
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www.shakeylee.com
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Killa_Hertz
1846 posts
Oct 28, 2016
5:39 AM
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Up until recently 99% of my playing was acoustic.
However over the last month or two I have been playing more amplified. I don't play gigs like the rest of you, so if I didn't plug in at home I would never get to play amped .. lol.
I'm finding that I'm really limiting all of my pedals. I was playing with alot of different effects, learning what I liked and didnt like. But I found that they were really killing the tube sound. Some of them straight up add a Solid State sound to the mix. So I just try to keep it pretty raw now.
A Boss DM2 Delay and a BBE Sonic Stomp and a Hot n Dirty Tube amp. Works pretty well. I would be hesitant to buy a big amp for home use and dirty it up with pedals.
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dougharps
1295 posts
Oct 28, 2016
8:27 AM
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Small, medium, and large amps each can serve a useful purpose and sound good in different settings. The problems usually occur when you try to push a small or midsize amp to do the job of a large amp in a larger space. You will not have sufficient stage volume with an undersized amp and you will have a high likelihood of feedback problems.
This issue can be managed if you have a band that agrees to limit stage volume and all bring amps appropriate to that purpose and keeps volume under control while using the PA for FOH volume. Do not expect this at a jam.
When the stage gets loud and you push your amp too far you get fuzz and feedback. If you try to use an amp larger than fits the room you tend to lose tone, though a small number of larger amps may be able to provide good tone at lower volumes.
With regard to effects and modeling units, often the effects that sound good through a small amp in a room in a house will result in feedback in a live venue setting. Learning to manage effects and modeling in a live room is a learned art. It can be done with knowledge and the right pedals, but it is not easy.
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Doug S.
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Killa_Hertz
1850 posts
Oct 28, 2016
9:05 AM
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nice Doug. Yes im learning that playing amped period, is an art in itself.
I know this is a little OT, but I have noticed that even in the same room, HOW and WHERE you place the amp can have a massive effect on how it sounds and the feedback issue.
For instance
I sometimes place my amp in the doorway of my jam room (facing out into the hallway) That way I could stretch my mic cord down the hallway and get a little distance from the amp.
Well normally I will have a Record playing in the room, that I am jamming to. So I had a record playing, but I was trying to record the sound on the amp with my phone, so I shut the door to block the sound of the record player. So now the opened back amp is sitting right infront of a closed door. INSTANT Crazy Feedback as soon as I started playing.
This may be a big DUH! to some of you, but I found it kind of enlightening.
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SuperBee
4221 posts
Oct 28, 2016
2:27 PM
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Oh yep at home I rarely plug in these days except to check equipment or maybe record something or compare mics. But I used to do it abit more when I was starting out learning about amps and trying effects pedals.
I agree with Doug I think, about amp sizes. It's a while since I was in a recording 'studio' but last recording I did was for some rough demos to help pitch the band...l used a 12 watt amp in a large-ish rehearsal space and it could have been a bit bigger.
I made all the MuddyTurd records with small amps (Epiphone valve juniors and a sweet home brew Kriesler which was breaking down unfortunately) and the engineer was suggesting an AC 15. I thought it would be too crazy but in the end I tried it (because of the obviously-failing of my Kriesler) and found it was the best harp sound of the session. But it's different laying down a solo track than playing with a live band.
Digression: First time I used my HRD, which I obtained in response to the very loud stage which was normal in that band, ironically we were supporting a children's entertainer and was the lowest volume gig we ever did. So straight off the bat I was learning how to get a reasonable tone from it a lower volume. Like, 4 and 5 year olds sitting on carpet just in front of the stage. It was like being in the crappest version ever of the wiggles. The muddy turfs. We did juggling, tap, hula hoop...had to rewrite the songs but fortunately they were already quite childish.
I used a champ in a duo, miced to PA. that was great. The guitarist I worked with at that time was really volume conscious, so we could always make it work.
The thing that puts me off using a small amp is the situation Doug mentioned, where you have to push it to max and it's all fuzz. But really I think it's a bit like blowing the harp too hard; it's not even really significantly louder, just sounds nasty. May as well just stick with good tone.
But sounds like OP is really mainly using the 410 for a speaker box and doing a lot of tone shaping before it even gets to the amp
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Barley Nectar
1266 posts
Oct 29, 2016
8:13 AM
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Well I've been dissing the Dinks for years but i do have small amps. Amps are tools, you need the right tool for the job. Big room, loud band...big amp. Coffee house duet small amp or two. Outside I'll mic the big amp.
If you can avoid standing in front of your amp, this will reduce feedback. That ain't a guitar in your face! LOL.
I'm going to ride the Goldwing today and I have a paying gig tonight so I'm a pretty happy fellow right now.
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bonedog569
1067 posts
Oct 29, 2016
6:38 PM
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Bone's Rule: For natural tube driven tone- use the Smallest Amp that will work for the Room. Your zoom g5n makes the choice of amp almost irrelevant. You are listening to the zoom and at #2 on the volume, your DeVIlle 410 is functioning mostly as a clean PA for amp sim. A tube powered PA with tone controls and reverb - which is nice and in some ways more versatile, - but it's not what most tube amp discussions about amp size and such are about.
I don't know the 5watt Bugera, but the VH6 and Various tweed Champ clones are great studio and small room amps that can sound really good with harp 'au natural' (without pedals or amps sims). For a smallish bar with a drummer that doesn't hit hard and a band doesn't require ear protection, - vintage amps with two cathode-biased 6V6's (12-14 watts) is the ticket. Louder bar/ bigger room, - out comes the Bassman.
That said, if your tone is weak to begin with - and/or you don't know how to use the mic. , to use 1847's analogy, you're 'icing' is on resting on a soggy ass flapjack - and not a cake.
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Bone's music videos
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hvyj
3150 posts
Oct 31, 2016
8:01 AM
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From Dennis Gruenling's website: "in most situations, the harp amp will usually need to be at least the same size as the guitar amp (if not bigger) due to the fact that the guitar will likely be able to be louder with a similarly size amp,"
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1847
3782 posts
Oct 31, 2016
8:54 AM
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from the john kinder website.....
100 watts of "don't get lost" power
Last Edited by 1847 on Oct 31, 2016 8:55 AM
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LSB
208 posts
Oct 31, 2016
12:02 PM
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My neighbors would love that.
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Georgia Blues
230 posts
Nov 03, 2016
10:56 AM
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I have a 60 watt amp into a 115 cab and it sounds great at low volumes, very low volumes. Can be done.
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slaphappy
239 posts
Nov 10, 2016
3:54 PM
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I played a few "full band pretty loud" gigs recently with my 18-watt Magnatone and it felt underpowered.
What do you guys think is the minimum wattage needed in an amp to keep up? What other specs should I be concerned with in looking for a "big amp"
I don't want to have to depend on mic'ing the amp so yeah something bigger.. Sonny Jr, Bassman, or something?
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Nov 10, 2016 3:55 PM
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rogonzab
1004 posts
Nov 10, 2016
4:18 PM
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Read the Greg heuman article on harmonica micrphones. There you will find the long answer.
Short answer: there is no point in going 18w to 25w or 30w, you should aim for at least 50w and more speaker area.
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Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
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NathanLWBC
103 posts
Nov 11, 2016
6:25 AM
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@Slaphappy...With two identical rigs, a guitar player can achieve more volume due to the inherent limitations of the harmonica being an instrument that requires a microphone.
Personally, that signals to me that harp players should be bringing more firepower than a guitar player to any given gig. Yet, the amount of people who try to battle Super Reverbs and Twins with a Champ is mind boggling.
I posed a question to the Facebook gear page, but, due to the nature of the...errr, population...of that group, it somehow turned into an argument (most certainly not my intention).
Question: Why have more harmonica players not tried large cabinets with high power heads (i.e. 4x12, 6x10 or 8x10)? Is it purely the weight/load-in that steers guys away? Tone? I've seen guys run two Devilles in stereo (effectively 80ish watts with an 8x10 cab), Johnny Sansone run two homemade 4x10s powered by a 200 watt bass head and the Kinder guys...that's about all I've seen as far as real large rigs are concerned.
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--Nathan Heck
General Manager, Lone Wolf Blues Co.
customerservice@lonewolfblues.com
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Killa_Hertz
1890 posts
Nov 11, 2016
10:07 AM
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I have wondered the Same thing Nathan. But I dont know enough about amps to really question it.
You see TONS of nice high powered Tube heads out there for guitar. Surely these could be setup for harp. They usually have a dirty channel and a clean channel. I realize alot of them are high gain for metal type applications, but again ... surely they could be modded. If not a custom high wattage head built.
I see some are starting to go after the quilter heads and voice them with there 5 watt amps. This seems interesting. That almost seems like the best of both worlds. I would think doing this you could get the sick 5 watt tone but with the power one needs to not be buried in the mix.
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hvyj
3169 posts
Nov 17, 2016
9:11 PM
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Stopped by a jam last night on my way home from a rehearsal for a Christmas show. I had my PRRI with tilt back legs and my 545 Ultimate which I brought in. There was another harp player there who played a whole set and remained on stage when personnel changed at the end of the set. The musician running the jam told me to get up and plug my amp in, which I did. I put my amp next to the other harp player's amp which looked like a Memphis MIni, but it had metal amp corners which MM's don't have, so I'm not really sure what it actually was. He also had a bullet mic.
The other harp player complained that there wasn't much room. Instead of suggesting that he could solve that problem by sitting down I simply agreed and moved myself to the opposite side of the stage, leaving my amp where it was which my 25' mic cable allowed me to do.
Anyway, to avoid a dueling harmonicas scenario, I laid out a lot and only played solos when I was cued, and let the other guy play all the fills except on tunes that had defined hooks which he appeared either not to know or not able to play. He improvised ok but couldn't carry anything that had a defined harp part.
Anyway, the band was relatively loud, and his tone was thin, raspy and trebly. No feedback but very inadequate volume. My PRRI (15 watts 1x10) cut through just fine. At the end of the jam as he was breaking down I noticed the other harp player had TWO tiny little amps about the same size but but not the same model.
They had sounded wholly inadequate and could not compete with either the output of the band or my PRRI. I suspect they probably sounded pretty decent in the guy's living room but in a live performance situation with other amplified instruments and competing frequencies they could not keep up.
Moral of the story: anything under a robust 15 watts (which is actually minimal) should stay at home. Personally, I never bitch about volume even if is excessive. But I try to make sure I have adequate equipment to enable me to hang with whatever the rest of the band is doing. As a harp player you get a lot more opportunities to play if you are able to adapt to whatever the other musicians are doing instead of expecting them to adapt to you.
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 17, 2016 9:32 PM
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hvyj
3172 posts
Nov 18, 2016
8:21 AM
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@slaphappy: besides power (wattage) how much air the amp moves (speaker surface area) is important. But there are also intangibles. For example I can get louder before feedback with my Peavey Delta Blues (30 watts/1x15) than I can with my Fender Super Reverb RI (45 watts/4x10).
Now, this won't be a popular thing for me to say but, in general, bullet mics are commonly more feedback prone than harp friendly stick mics. Pedals inject another variable and what they do to your signal when they are not engaged is as important as how they sound when they are on.
How your tube amp is biased is also very important. In general, you probably need to bias cooler for harp than you would for guitar.
The amp tech I am using now has a clientele comprised almost exclusively of gigging musicians. He has a hard time taking most harp players seriously because he says they think they know everything and are always telling him what to do when, more often than not, their detailed instructions are counterproductive compared to what he would do if allowed to excercise his own discretion. Moon Cat said it best in the anti feedback thread: use modern technology not antique gear. Much of the folklore about playing amped harmonica is not valid and does not work well in real live gigging situations. But like Nathan says, harp players tend to put a Champ in the back line next to a Twin and a Super used by the guitar players and then whine about how loud the guitars are. Go figure...
The conventional wisdom about using a small amp and micing it may work in certain situations but IMHO a serious electric player is better off with a big boy anp. If the guitar player thinks you are too loud you can always turn it down.
This is a little OT but something else I just don't get is a purported electric blues band using a stand up bass fiddle and slapping it like a rockabilly band does. If you are going to play with authority you need an electro bass guitar. To me, stand up bass in an electric blues band just sounds lame and forces the other musicians to lay back. Ok on a jazz gig, but perplexing to do if the band is playing electric blues. But others probably look at it differently.
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 18, 2016 8:39 AM
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timeistight
2060 posts
Nov 18, 2016
9:35 AM
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"stand up bass in an electric blues band [...] forces the other musicians to lay back."
That's not a bug; it's a feature!
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hvyj
3174 posts
Nov 18, 2016
9:59 AM
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@timeistight: that depends on your objective. Several year ago I was in a nightclub to see Sugar Blue. We arrived early and watched his band set up. At one point Rico McFarland, SB's guitar player very pointedly told the the sound man that he had to understand that they were a hard rocking band and did not play that laid back old timey style of blues.
So it all depends on what you are trying to sound like which, btw, affects what sort of venues are willing to book you.
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 18, 2016 10:00 AM
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