Ciao Hillstomp Blues Harmonica Players out there..did any of you take them valves off the BOLD BODY BEAR yet?? I have one in LLE Low Low E and I`m just curious to know if that helps the lower reeds bending or not.. ---------- Haz7maX..
With super low harps and without the valves you'll have a hard time starting the blow note until the draw note settles down, and vice versa. ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
Thanks Mahcks and Greg..i might try to take`em off anyway because i love to bend low tuned harmonicas like a classic MARINE BAND #364 in C..but it feels to me those valves rattle when i bend draw holes 1+2+3 on my BOLD BODY in LLE..as you can see on my Haz7maX Youtube Videos i bend any harmonica you can think of..even UNSERE LIEBLINGE or ORCHESTER III or AUTO VALVA HARP or even TREMOLOS..but i take valves off every time!! i`m already bending my BOLD BODY in LLE no problem..but i don`t like my valves to rattle..---------- Haz7maX..
Last Edited by Haz7maX on Aug 30, 2016 5:37 PM
I have a bunch of half-valved harps, including a Low Tone in Low C. I've never had one rattle. In fact, since they're made of ultrasuede, which is a very soft fabric, I don't see how the valves could "rattle." Maybe you meant buzz or flap? Many valves problems are rooted in maintenance or use issues. Even though ultrasuede valves are relatively immune to most windsaver issues could this be a problem?
Bending low low keyed harmonicas is of particular interest to me. Depending on what is meant, bending a LLE is an amazing feat! When I talk about bending a low keyed harp, I'm really talking about bending 1-draw. For me, bending higher reeds doesn't count. Nor does blow bending a valved harp.
I'm a big woman (6 feet tall and 180 lbs) and the ~absolute~ lower limit of my bending is 1 draw on a Low C (I have several other Low Cs as well, including a Hohner 365, and SBS, and a Seydel 12-hole Solist Pro). No matter what I do I can just barely make those pesky 1-draw reeds bend a tiny bit. It makes me feel better that I am pretty certain that the reason for my lower limit on this 1-draw is based in the laws of physics (Helmholtz resonance, specifically).
[As as aside for any geeks out there: The wavelength of 1-draw on a Low C (D3) is 2.3 meters (7.5 feet). The wavelength of 1-draw on a Low Low E (F#3) is 4 meters (12.9 feet).
Apparently the equivalent linear dimension of my airways must be around that 1.9 foot figure as I ~can~ bend 2-draw on my Low Cs. If the laws of acoustic physics are at play here. it would seem that it would be a rather large individual indeed who would accommodate that 3.2 foot figure.]
I'm not disputing Haz7Max7's claim to be able to bend his LLE harp at all. I'm just saying is that based on my own playing experience and knowledge of acoustics, I can't understand how he does it.
In terms of other players of Low Low keyed harps, the best two I'm aware of are Joe Filisko and Rupert Oysler. Here's Rupert playing a Low Low F.
I hear a lot of bends happening there but the 1-draw is conspicuous in its absence (to my ear).
Joe even speaks to the extreme difficulty of bending Low Low keyed harmonicas and encourages players to think of them as chordal rather than melody instruments.
I guess what I am saying is that if Haz7Max7 or anyone else is actually able to bend 1-draw on his LLE Low Tone, I'd sure like to know how he does it. I'd be really grateful if he would put up a demonstration or even better a tutorial on how he manages to do it.
Thanks,
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Aug 31, 2016 5:43 AM
Michelle, I'm glad it isn't just me. When I say 'bend' I mean the 1 draw too. And Lo Eb is the lowest so far with which I can get 'all the way down', although it takes me a while to get it there. I'm about to build up s Lo C Solist Pro. I'm waiting for the comb and covers.
Ciao Michelle+Superbee..this is Haz7maX again!!i`ll be very happy to tell you how i bend a 1 DRAW hole on my BOLD BODY LLE : i hold my harmonica like a PAN FLUTE and i open some kind of valve we have inside our ears just like when we drive fast going down the hill..that`s all!! every reed is the same..they put more metal on the tips to make`em sound lower!! for fun try to bend reeds on a regular HOHNER UNSERE LIEBLINGE in C like i do on my Youtube Videos and you will understand what i mean by playing like a PAN FLUTE!! it`s a DESCRETE COMB Technique..so use 2 HOLEs at the time as it was just 1 HOLE in a regular diatonic 10 holes Marine Band : IT DOES WORK..and you`ll like it!! i was born in a very lil town in ITALY where people play TRUNFA..we`d call it JAWs HARP in the States!! i`ve been bending that single reed left`n`right as a kid..before i even knew what an HARMONICA or THE BLUEs was!! if you try to play an Italian Sicilian Original Godfather Malandrinu Scacciapensieri TRUNFA in LOW LOW LOW F# like that 1 i play on Youtube then you will understand what i mean by open the valve inside your ears to change sound and notes..if you don`t it`ll never play a tune in a bucket!! if you wanna play a full bending chromatic scale on a descrete comb try a vintage Prewar Hohner NEW BEST QUALITY No 50B Harmonika in C like that 1 i play on Youtube..and you will be able to bend every BLOW+DRAW reed from 1 to 10 no problem..piece of cake..but do we really need to do that?? NO..WE DON`T..too many keys : SIMPLICITY IS THE ONLY KEY TO PLAY A GREAT SONG!! i learnt how to bend my reeds on a Tremolo Hohner BRAVI ALPINI 1 sided red woodcomb harmonica in C..because my Mother liked Polkas..and if i wanted to play THE BLUEs instead i had to get creative she said!! Conclusion : EVERY HARMONICA WITHOUT VALVES IS BENDABLE..that`s why i was wondering if i should take them valves off my BOLD BODY LLE..because when i bend my 1+2+3 DRAW Holes they ``rattle``like a rattlesnake..but they bend just fine and i will post a video on Youtube pretty soon..so that you can see and hear what i mean!! i`m a very aggressive harmonica player..i love to bend superlow reeds..i`m a big AC7DC fan so i like it HEAVY!! i think i don`t belong to any particular classified category of music..but if i have to pick 1 i`d say i play WILD HILL STOMP BLUEs!! so i need to bend my reeds as low as i can to make the sound as scary as possible!! my fav Harmonica of all is still my legendary CHARLES BRONSON`s Hohner ORCHESTER III VEREINs HARMONICA used in ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST 5 stars movie..upper register very LOW..and lower register very HIGH..superbendable octavina harmonica great for HILL STOMP BLUES & BLUEGRASS music..as you can see on my Youtube Videos!! if you don`t find that 1 because is very very rare..then just get a regular vintage Prewar Hohner AUTO VALVE HARP in G..TAKE ALL VALVEs OFF.. and you will jam like crazy if you like fast stomping blues and bluegrass!! PREWAR HARMONICAs sound way better than MODERN HARMONICAs in my opinion!! Too bad they didn`t invent my BOLD BODY LLE 100 years ago..it`d play way better..and without stupid valves!! P.S. : i met RUPERT OYSLER in person at THE NAMM 2013 in California : i bought my SEYDEL 1847 CLASSIC LOW TONE BOLD BODY Harmonica in LLE from him a few weeks ago!! i still didn`t put it down for a minute : my next 1 will be a BOLD BODY in Low A..too bad they didn`t invent 1 i LOW LOW A yet..if not that was already mine!!!!!!---------- Haz7maX..
Last Edited by Haz7maX on Aug 31, 2016 9:04 PM
Haz7Max7, I appreciate your detailed explanation. You clearly have a lot of harmonica experience. After doing some digesting, I must admit there are several things that I don't understand about what you said mixed with a revolutionary new discovery (to me). Quite a post!
- If you hold you harps like a pan pipe pointed straight up there can be no "seal" against your lips. That being the case if you draw air while holding your harp like that, you will "suck" nothing but air and sound no reed. So I'm confused by the pan flute part. In your Unsere Lieblinge videos you seem to be holding the harp in the normal manner to your lips, which further confuses me.
- An octave or tremolo harmonica simply cannot be bent using both holes. You must isolate either the upper or the lower hole and execute a single reed bend.
- I live at high altitude (5,800') and frequently drive over 10,000' mountain passes. I've had to cultivate the ability to open my eustachian tubes or, like a diver, my ear drums would pop (eustachian tubes are the small ducts between your ear and your throat). I do it all the time. In my opinion what's happening when you open your eustachian tubes in terms of bending a harmonica is that the action of the muscles involved enlarges your airways much like your yawn muscles. This is a totally novel idea to me. I've always learned to hold your throat in the yawn position to enhance your harmonica tone. In fact, though it has been debunked here before, I am still convinced that habitually doing that while a play harps (which is a lot) has contributed to my low voice.
I just tried draw bending first using my eustachian tube-related musculature (EM), then my yawn-related musculature (YM), then both. I do indeed get a slight flattening using only EM! And first using YM and then adding my EM I did notice the YM further lowered my bent tone. However, the amount being very small as I said -- certainly in comparison to the the impact of my YM -- makes it difficult for me to understand how this could have a major impact when bending Low Low harmonicas.
I'm going to explore this further!
- I don't know why you say "every harmonica without valves can be bent," because a) as I said above discrete combed harps can be bent only if you isolate single reeds, and b) in fact, that is in effect why valved harmonicas can be bent too. The valves do the isolating for you.
- I would be very pleased to see Youtube videos in which you demonstrate both bending hole 1 on your Low Low E Low Tone as well as the way the valves "rattle" like a rattlesnake when you play holes 1+2+3.
So, quite frankly, mentioning bending by "opening your ears" injected quite a bit of credibility into your post. A lot of what you said raised enough questions that lacking that discovery I would probably dismissed your post as simply throwing a lot of names and terms out there and gone on about my business. Now I want to further explore the things you said that I don't understand. I love it when I learn something new about playing harmonicas! Let's dive deeper into this mixed bag of a post of yours.
Thanks, to ya, Haz7Max7.
Mahcks, you can indeed bend a jaw harp. There are two things happening with a good jaw harp player that change the tone of the instrument. One, you can alter the tone by changing the shape of your oral cavity. That's what's happening when you hear a jaw harper play a melody. Two, you can draw bend the jaw harp.
Aron Szilagyi, a Hungarian Jaw Harp virtuoso, is my favorite jaw harper. Here is a short video where he uses both techniques. The bending is when he sounds like a giant bullfrog.
Check out his web site for all sorts of information and tutorials if you're interested.
BTW, these are $50 and up jaw harps. Aron's father happens to make some of the world's finest. PM me if you want a lot more information about jaw harps.
Thanks,
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Sep 01, 2016 10:11 AM
Ciao Machks+Michelle..yes italian TRUNFAS are bendable..i don`t remember which videos i posted at the moment..but feel free to search SARDEGNA TRUNFA FESTIVAL and you will find unbelievable stuff about TRUNFA VIRTUOSOs!! to bend a Trunfa reed playing a bluegrass song for example you do like this : 1st note hit the reed with your thumb..2nd note (bend)pull your tongue back but don`t hit the reed..3rd note hit the reed again!! Let`s get back to HARMONICAs now : to bend Tremolos and Octavinas DON`T isolate 1 hole at the time..but make your lips operate 2 CONSECUTIVE HOLES (blow+draw) at the time..untill you feel it`s just a long straight hole with 2 reeds (blow+draw) inside like a regular Marine Band!! VALVEs are not required in order to bend reeds..watch that happens looking in a mirror!! YES..take ur coverplates off and i can guarantee you that drawing a reed and bend it will never happen..but instead you will see THAT DRAW REED stopping and the 1 KEY LOWER BLOW REED NEARBY will start moving on its own going HALF A KEY HIGHER : that`s where your bending note comes from!! That`s why i`m so glad to take all valves off any of my harmonicas..they are in my way doing that..even with this SUZUKI PROMASTER SEMIVALVED SYSTEM used in my BOLD BODY LLE..i hate it..they are in my way to do what i`m used to do when i bend!! i need my girlfriend Stella to help me to post a video on Youtube because my Flip Phone ain`t gonna do it..but hopefully i`ll make 1 this weekend so i will post it as : Haz7maX LLE BOLD BODY bending..or some like that!! i`m almost up to take these LLE valves off today..i don`t know yet!! maybe i could just take only 1 off..and if it gets worse i`d glue it back on..maybe.. ---------- Haz7maX..
Last Edited by Haz7maX on Sep 01, 2016 6:37 PM
Now we're getting into some even more curious territory, Haz7Max7.
- We agree that jaw harps can be bent. No argument there. Let's end that discussion.
- We don't agree about bending double reed harmonicas. At all. In fact we are in direct opposition on that. Unfortunately for you, Pat Missin, a world authority on harmonicas agrees with me. He says, "By learning to play either just the top row of holes or just the bottom row, you can play each row just like a single reed diatonic." That is an incontrovertible fact.
- No one said valves are required to bend, only that they help on these Low Low harps. And it wasn't me who said that.
- The idea that you can't bend a harmonica with the cover plates off is just plain gibberish. Statements like that go a long way toward destroying your credibility. I bend harmonica reeds with no cover plate or comb, putting the reed plate directly to my lips. It's really pretty easy. And very useful. Do it all the time.
- You don't need to lecture me about Richter bending. I'm pretty confident that I understand the physics of harmonicas far better than you do.
- It's not the "Suzuki Promaster semivalved" system. It's the Brendan Power half-valving concept. And it uses PT Gazelle ultrasuede valves, not plastic ones like Suzuki's.
- I'd still very much like to see how you hold your harps like a pan flute and how you bend that Low Low E. In fact, I'm going to reserve further comment until you prove what you have contended via a Youtube video.
- You go ahead and remove those valves. I'm leaving mine on.
Thanks,
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Sep 02, 2016 2:47 AM
Ciao Michelle..wich part of my statement is not clear enough?? What i said is that a draw reed WILL NOT give you the flat sound..and you can see that by whatching your draw reed stopping when you try to bend that note down becase the blow reed undernite is gonna start moving making a sound higher than that blow reed note..which you can see in a mirror IF YOU TAKE THE COVER PLATES OFF!! I`ve been playing Tremolos and Octavinas since 1982 bending reeds just like we do in a regular Marine Band harmonica BECAUSE I LIKE TO DO THINGs LIKE THAT..can you dig it?? What credibility do i have to prove and why?? At this point i keep my skills confidential since it might create COMPETITION out there and i might just like to play and bend 1+2+3 draw on LLE live on stage so i get paid for!! my original question was about VALVEs on LLE BOLD BODY..but no problem..you keep your valves on if you like..and i take mine off to see if that might improve my bending skills on a LLE BOLD BODY!! They do rattle like a rattlesnake and they shouldn`t in my opinion!! i own a Prewar Hohner CHROMONICA 10 holes tuned as a modern Hohner SLIDE HARP and i left it semivalved just because it was made so good that it bends like a regular Marine Band and valves DO NOT RATTLE : that`s what i`m talking about..maybe these LLE BOLD BODY valves are still in process of testing and Seydel is gonna substitute`em with some other ones which can specifically work on a BOLD BODY harmonica!! For your information Michelle..every each harmonica of mine is SELF-CUSTOM..which means i modified inside and outside to play stuff that normally an OUT OF A BOX Harmonica wouldn`t play..i DO NOT SELL`EM nor MAKE`EM for anyonelse because i believe everybody should customize their own harmonicas according to how they wanna play`em!!Enough said..---------- Haz7maX..
Last Edited by Haz7maX on Sep 04, 2016 9:00 PM
Haz7Max7, you start a thread asking a question that any harmonica technician with your purported level of expertise could answer in 2 minutes by just doing what you suggest -- removing the silly little valves.
Along the way you make claims about your playing skills that fly in the face of all conventional wisdom. Then, when you are confronted with contrary documentation written by a true authority on the subject you refuse to simply demonstrate that you can do what you say. And this is because you've discovered some sort of proprietary trade secret that no other harmonica player including the inimitable Pat Missin has ever discovered in the history of the instrument.
Well...
Thanks for the entertaining thread.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Maybe there are some meanings going astray through translation. For instance Haz7max didn't say bending can't be done without covers. He was making a point that if you remove the covers you can see the blow reed is heavily involved in producing the sound of a draw bend. i think the implication is that the valves, placed on the inside of the draw plate, will not have any influence on the draw bend, except perhaps some negative effect. I have just assembled a LoC solist pro, which has ultrasuede valves on slots 1 and 2. Slot 1 does indeed rattle. But I don't think it's about the valve. The valves do enable me to blow bend slot 2 down to an Eb so I think that is kinda cool. I can't get any kind of bend on hole 1. Maybe a kind of timbral change.
https://youtu.be/1pNFkx0UYMc michelle..here you go : check this on Youtube..Haz7maX BOLD BODY LLE..that way you think twice before promoting that kind of attitude of yours on such a beautiful international HARMONICA WEBSITE!! Be nice to who you don`t know well and focus on learning what you don`t know yet..even SuperBee got my point..so get back to your VALVED LLE and bend those reeds 1+2+3 draw like i do first..and then i might tell you what you don`t know yet..
Haz7maX..
Last Edited by Haz7maX on Sep 05, 2016 10:59 PM
https://youtu.be/Pz8_E-mOXRc michelle..check this video on Youtube too..so you might get the motivation to customize your BOLD BODY LLE HARMONICA to bend the 1 DRAW NOTE like that..if you remember that what you need is the 1 BLOW NOTE to overbend half a step higher to sound like me..good luck to you!! My job is done..enough shown to prove my credibility..and it`s THE END of this story!! If you wanna prove me your credibility now show me a video where you bend 1+2+3 draw reeds on your BOLD BODY LLE HARMONICA and we are even..if not i will not even waste my time!!---------- Haz7maX..
Last Edited by Haz7maX on Sep 05, 2016 11:11 PM
Haz7Max7, I'll grant you that is some impressive playing. I appreciate you taking the trouble to do that.
But, I didn't hear any bending on 1 draw. I thought that was the point of contention. A simple 1 draw bend would have sufficed to satisfy my curiosity.
So, I think SuperBee is right. What we have here is failure to communicate.
Thanks for putting up with me,
Michelle
BTW, I like the cover plate struts you put on your comb. I wonder about how bend resistant those tall covers are without them. Even though they don't budge much when I pinch them with my fingers. I think I'll do that with mine.
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Isn't he playing a draw bend low F in the video? He starts by playing an E (1 blow), then a F (draw bend) around 4.5 secs, then goes to an F# (1 draw).....
