hvyj
3055 posts
Jun 26, 2016
9:47 AM
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The Bowie tune. Anyone have any experience with how to approach this on harp? I'm thinking 12th position. Suggestions? Examples?
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1847
3493 posts
Jun 26, 2016
12:05 PM
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most songs can be played in the first three positions.
so my guess is cross harp.
if the one chord is E the D chord is the flat 7
the A is the 4 chord and Bm the 5 chord.
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Last Edited by 1847 on Jun 26, 2016 12:06 PM
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garry
649 posts
Jun 26, 2016
1:18 PM
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In a former band, we used to play a medley of Jane Says > Rebel Rebel > Jane Says. I played it in 2nd, as I recall. Which is not to say that's right, necessarily. I do what I can.
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hvyj
3057 posts
Jun 26, 2016
3:01 PM
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It doesn't work in 2d. It's in D and I believe the relevant chords are D and E. The guitar player tells me the opening riff is low D, high E D C# B B B C# G# E (and repeat). I can't get those notes unless I play an A harp in 12th.
The only problem with 12th is the opening note (low register D) is 2 draw whole step bend, but using 5 draw instead will work since it will be played against the lower octave D played on the guitar and so will sound ok. That way I don't have to worry about intonation of the opening note. Can't figure out how to make it work otherwise except in 12th, I don't play that often in 12th, but I'm passable enough in 12th to be able to handle this.
"Most songs can be played in th first three positions..." Don't want to appear argumentative, but that is not consistent with my experience. There is a ton of material that won't play properly in First, second or third, including this tune, unless I'm missing something here.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 26, 2016 3:19 PM
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1847
3495 posts
Jun 26, 2016
3:23 PM
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the opening chord is an Dsus chord. neither major or minor.
the bridge is A to D to Bm "the 5 chord" back to the 1 chord E
so yes an A harp works best. perhaps winslow can explain it better. i just try to find the right sounding notes.
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1847
3496 posts
Jun 26, 2016
4:18 PM
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so.... the key of E has 4 sharps one of which is D#
so it can't be E
the key of D only has 2 sharps you are showing a G#
so that would rule out D as well.
it is beginning to look a lot like like A......
it is very modal sounding...... so perhaps someone can chime in.. perhaps lydian?
Last Edited by 1847 on Jun 26, 2016 4:19 PM
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dougharps
1257 posts
Jun 26, 2016
4:31 PM
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I used to play this in a rock cover band. The A harp covers it fine.
Just because it starts on a Dsus2 chord doesn't mandate that the song is written in the key of D. The idea of the first note/chord being the key of the song is a generalization, and there are exceptions.
The sheet music signature for this song that I found online shows 3 sharps: key of A. It lists chords for the intro as: Dsus2, A, E repeated. For the song body it lists D/F#, E, D/F#, E repeated. Bridge (found on another sheet because I didn't want to buy it!) seems to be D, Bm, E.
Since you list the notes C# and G#, the key of A makes some some sense. That being said it does feel a little like 12th when you play it due to the notes in the riff.
Some songs could be said to have been written in at least two different keys, and some songs have key changes (sort of) in the bridge.
I find which harp fits a song best for me to play it. I don't get too hung up on the name of the position if it works for me with a song. Sometimes I will try 2 or 3 different harps to find where it lies best for me. Occasionally I have used 2 harps. Others may choose a different key and use advanced techniques. Whatever works...
IMHO position is a convenient guide to help choose harps when you know the KEY of a song, but just a tool. In fact, as we play a blues 1-4-5 song (not this song!) you could say we are changing positions with the chord changes.
Some songs that alternate chords could be written with different key signatures that each cover the melody and chords and some songs generate long arguments between band members about what to call the actual key of a song.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jun 26, 2016 5:19 PM
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hvyj
3058 posts
Jun 26, 2016
5:27 PM
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Thanks, Doug. So it's actually A first position, which makes sense. I never actually checked the key. Although I know better than to assume the first chord is necessarily the key, for some not very good reason I thought the tune was in D.
Yeah, positions are just shorthand to help get us into the proper scale(s). When I realized second position wouldn't work, my gut reaction was to try first, but my mistake about properly identifying the key threw me off! Thanks for straightening me out.
@1847: We think alike. 12th position corresponds to Lydian mode.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 26, 2016 5:33 PM
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Gnarly
1846 posts
Jun 26, 2016
9:17 PM
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I pulled it up on YouTube--it's in E, Mixolydian, so A harp in second should be perfect.
The riff lays perfectly on the harp, the low D is whole step draw bend two, go up to blow 6.
Unless I am missing something here . . . granted I haven't tried it yet, there was a chromatic handy so I used that.
Edit: just tried it on an A, it works.
12th would have a major 7th, so it's not the right position.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Jun 26, 2016 9:21 PM
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dougharps
1258 posts
Jun 27, 2016
7:28 AM
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After thinking about it more I think I would choose to characterize this song as partly in 1st and partly in 2nd. When I first learned it I immediately recognized that it was different from a lot of blues and folk 1-4-5 stuff I played and adjusted what I did to fit the song.
But like I said, for me position is just a starting place to explore where the melody/chord changes work best for me for improvising, while also following the melody and changes.
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Doug S.
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1847
3497 posts
Jun 27, 2016
7:53 AM
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i see said the blind man.... if you lower the leading tone a half step it gives you mixolydian.
all this theory gives me a great big headache.
sooooo........
the mixolydian is the 5 th mode of A...... that would explain the key sig. that doug found on line....
what i find encouraging is that there are harmonica players still willing to learn something.
some of this theory is confusing and it is hard to fault anyone not able or willing to pick up on it.
you do not need any theory what so ever to play harmonica. you do however need to play the right notes.
time and time again i hear harp player playing wrong notes, heck i do that myself...
when i do that, i am usually aware then i try to fix that. sadly that is not the case for a large number of players.
i sometimes hear a lot of random notes that do not fit... the crowd will give applause and they never seem to realize
they are playing wrong notes. if you make a mistake.... we all do.... you must correct it.
end of rant. lol
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timeistight
2006 posts
Jun 27, 2016
9:28 AM
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The verse is ambiguous: you can hear as cycling between the IV and V chords in A or between the bVII and I chords in E. And some people even hear it as the I and II chords in D.
I think the bridge (A - D - Bmin - E) is definitely I - IV - ii - V in A.
Lots of rock and pop tunes play around with key like that. For example, is "Sweet Home Alabama" in G (with a major seven) or D (with a flat seven)?
As long as you can find the good notes on a harp, I don't think you need to get hung up on what position you are in.
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