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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Help Settle A Bet?.....
Help Settle A Bet?.....
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Minor Blues
24 posts
May 27, 2016
10:52 AM
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Ok,
So a couple of nights ago at an open jam in the Denver, CO region, a conversation arose about a particular harmonica song and solo.
You guys may have heard of it:
Junior Wells, Messin' With The Kid.
The version I'm referring to is on the Harmonica Classics Volume 4 CD.
https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51cCUKLgDXL._AC_US160_.jpg
At the aforementioned jam, I told a local harmonica teacher (Not mentioning any names yet) that I had recently learned Junior Wells' solo on Messin' With The Kid. I went on about how great it was to have finally learned it because it's such a cool solo, and it's been haunting me for years, blah, blah, blah, etc. He asks me what position I'm playing it in. I reply, "2nd Position, that's the way it was, originally recorded." He tells me, "No! It's a 1st Position song. That's how it was recorded and how it's always been played, etc." I tried to tell him he was mistaken and provided plenty of explanation as to why. It was a tough sell, though, because he knows nothing about music. I know, a music teacher with no knowledge of music fundamentals... Go figure.
Anyway, he eventually said he'd bet me on this issue. So I said ok, "100 bucks" and we shook on it.
I'm sure he'd never pay up, his arrogance wouldn't allow it, but I thought it might be interesting to see how one segment of one harmonica community may or may not settle the bet.
Any thoughts or opinions?
Is Junior Wells' song Messin' With The Kid a 1st position harp song or a 2nd position harp song? Or a 3rd position harp song, for that matter.
I'm sure it can be played well in 3rd position, but 1st position? Am I missing something here?
Thanks!
Last Edited by Minor Blues on May 27, 2016 11:19 AM
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Rgsccr
423 posts
May 27, 2016
11:30 AM
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Well, I have always played it and heard it played as second position on an "F" with the song in the key of "C." A quick google search turned up Dave Barrett showing it that way (with tab for third position, too).
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Minor Blues
25 posts
May 27, 2016
11:36 AM
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Yes, that's exactly the way I've always known it, too.
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ridge
670 posts
May 27, 2016
12:31 PM
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Maybe he just considers 2nd position the first position he chooses to play in. So 2nd to him is 1st...
BOOM!
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Ridge's YouTube
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SuperBee
3797 posts
May 27, 2016
2:00 PM
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The version most famous to me is F harp, second. Can't claim comprehensive knowledge of every time Jr. recorded it though...his first recording is a bit different but I don't recall much about it. Oh yeah, no harp. But a great record.
I really don't know why I think this, but I bet that cat is thinking of 'hoochie coochie man'. I'll not put $100 on it though. Maybe $20
Last Edited by SuperBee on May 27, 2016 4:04 PM
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timeistight
2002 posts
May 27, 2016
3:45 PM
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The version on that CD is not in first position, IMHO.
Yeah, Hoochie Coochie Man is first position. Not sure how Ou could mix up those songs, but maybe.
To settle the bet: Ask your harmonica teacher aquiaintence to play the solo on a C harp, without overblows.
Last Edited by timeistight on May 27, 2016 4:16 PM
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Mirco
416 posts
May 27, 2016
11:14 PM
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The Junior Wells solo is in 2nd position, as everyone else has said. No doubt about it.
I don't think you need to convince this guy about it. If he's being difficult and argumentative, let him persist in his ignorance. After all, you know better. It'll be one less competent musician and less competition for you.
As Bruce Willis said, "If you argue and rankle and contradict, you may achieve a temporary victory - sometimes; but it will be an empty victory because you will never get your opponent's good will."
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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barbequebob
3227 posts
May 28, 2016
8:05 AM
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In my 30+ years of playing, mainly pro, I've NEVER heard this tune played in anything other than 2nd position. Can it be played in 1st? Yes. The Junior Wells version you mention here was originally part of the Vanguard label's 3-LP series called Chicago/The Blues/Today issued in the mid 60's and you cannot tongue block that solo, especially to get the accenting on the very first 4 bars of that solo right, which is basically very guitar influenced playing and the tongue is beating off his pallet quickly and Junior was always playing with a very soft amount of breath force.
BTW, Junior first recorded this tune in the late 50's with Earl Hooker on guitar, using a rhumba groove and there wasn't any harp solo on it at all.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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tmf714
2873 posts
May 28, 2016
8:39 AM
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I own two recordings of Junior playing it in third position-
"Drinkin' TNT ??˜N' Smokin' Dynamite" (Castle, 1994)
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01. Intro (Spoken)
02. Ah'w Baby/Everything Gonna Be Alright - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
03. How Can One Woman Be So Mean - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
04. Checking On My Baby - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
05. When You See The Tears From My Eyes - C, F Harp (2nd Position)
06. Introduction
07. Ten Years Ago - D, C Chromatic (3rd Position) & C Harp (3rd Position)
08. Messing With The Kid - C, Bb Harp (3rd Position)
09. Hoodoo Man Blues - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
10. My Younger Days - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
"Live In Montreux" - Junior Wells & Buddy Guy (Evidence, 1977/1992)
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01. One Room Country Shack - D, No Harp
02. The Things That I Used To Do - A, No Harp
03. Everyday I Have The Blues - C, No Harp
04. Driving Wheel - D, G Harp (2nd Position)
05. Help Me - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
06. Come On In This House - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
07. Messin' With The Kid - C, Bb Harp (3rd Position)
08. Somebody's Got To Go - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
09. Everything Gonna Be Alright - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
10. Got My Mojo Working - E, A Harp (2nd Position)
"You're Tuff Enough" (Mercury, 1998)
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01. You're Tuff Enough - Bb, No Harp
02. It's All Soul - Bb, No Harp
03. Gonna Cramp Your Style - C, F Harp (2nd Position)
04. Where Did I Go Wrong - C, F Harp (2nd Position)
05. That'll Hold Me - C, F Harp (2nd Position)
06. Sweet Darling Think It Over - C, F Harp (2nd Position)
07. Up In Heah - C, F Harp (2nd Position)
08. You're The One - F#, B Harp (2nd Position)
09. You Ought To Quit That - C, F Harp (2nd Position)
10. Messing With The Kid - B, A Harp (3rd Position)
11. The Hippies Are Trying - A, D Harp (2nd Position)
12. Junior's Groove [Inst.] - C, F Harp (2nd Position)
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Minor Blues
26 posts
May 28, 2016
9:48 AM
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Thanks to everyone for chiming in.
@Ridge - I like your theory, but that's just not possible with this guy. He's too arrogant and not really a blues fan. He seems to discourage 2nd position in favor of 1st or 4th.
@SuperBee - Hmmm. Interesting thought, maybe he is confusing the two songs.
@Timesight - I really like your idea!
@Micro - You make several excellent points. I just hate when teachers act as though they know it all, when often they know so very little.
@Barbecue Bob - You've touched on how the conversation began. I was telling him that recently, after 25 years of playing, I finally figured out the Junior Wells lick that has been bothering me for so long. I originally noticed a similar lick on Junior's tune, Country Girl. Great tune in A, 2nd Position on a D harp. He does a great tongue articulation lick on the 4 draw ... bleeding into the 5 draw. I don't know which tune was recorded first, but the Messin' With The Kid lick is pretty much the same thing, just charged up a bit for the tempo and energy. I asked this harmonica teacher guy the same thing that you've brought up. "How exactly would ANYONE play that opening lick of the solo? Junior just explodes in the first 4 bars. And why would you even WANT to play it another way?" He just insisted that it was a 1st position lick.....
Again, thanks for the responses, everyone.
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barbequebob
3229 posts
May 31, 2016
11:27 AM
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@Minor Blues -- I still vividly remember hearing that lick for the first time and I started out playing nothing but tongue blocked and had just started learning the pucker method (now known these days more as lip pursing or lip block) mainly to get the blow note bends in the top octave and a few other things, and when I first heard this version, I had also been reading a book called The Harp Styles of Sonny Terry, which was an instructional book issued in the mid 70's that explained this very same technique where the tongue is beating on the pallet, and when I finally got a handle on it, I tried it out for this solo and it worked perfectly and I know EVERY single note of this solo in my sleep. It never works if you tongue block this solo at all.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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