I listen more and more jazz and jazz/blues and ska music and I love those lines when several horns are playing together creating harmonies.
I'm pretty new to studies of harmony and related topics so anyone can provide me any book recommendation or something regarding this topic?
And also out of curiosity lets say I'm playing with a backing track and I create a hook.
Lets go to the Key of G
so the line (generic) goes like
G G B B F# A B G
So in order to harmonize can I record myself playing over that same set of notes using thirds or fifths?
How does that work? Do I Play the thirds of G B F# A ? and another harp part could play the fifths of the same root notes? In order to create a chord kinda thing driven line?
I study music by myself and sometimes some material I get is pretty bad when it comes to music theory or harmony it leaves lots of gaps.
So how would you play to a standard major 12 bar blues recording three different harp lines? to have like a head of a tune for example?
Got me buddy that stuff confuses me still. But i am interested in horn lines.
I was just talking in the beginner forum about the possibility of maybe faking a horn section with a delay pedal set with low repeats. Or something along those lines. Wonder if anybody has done it yet.
Specifically i wanted to do the lines from James Cottons - One More Mile. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
It's not always as simple as playing the 3rd or 5th. Whether harmonizing horns, voices, harmonica lines, etc, the notes that work together have to correspond the the chords being played underneath. I'm sorry I can't recommend a book or video, but learning some basic piano, even if you never become a piano player, is a good start. Knowing what the chords are will help you know which notes work, and which ones don't. (Chord knowledge also helps you refine regular harp licks and correct any bad harp habits.)
When I added horns to 2 tracks on my CD project, the horn players asked for a chord chart. They built their arrangements and lines around those chords. Everything was perfect, except I found one mistake - a bad note from one of the horns - he played a minor 3rd when it should have been a major 3rd, which I was easily able to isolate and correct with pitch shift software. The wrong note harmonized just fine and sounded great when you listened to the horns all by themselves, but over the major chord it sounded a little off, because of.the one bad note.
Last Edited by Todd Parrott on Mar 26, 2016 7:57 AM
Todd Parrot is telling you the truth, which means doing something most harp players make lame excuses why they shouldn't learn basic music theory, and once you learn this stuff, pulling something like this becomes a million times easier where you almost don't even have to think about it. Years ago, I gigged with a band that had 5 horns in it and had to work as part of the horn section, and sometimes the lines were in unison (for those who don't know what I mean, that means everyone plays the exact same line, note for note), but there were many times the line had to be played in harmony, with one or more strating the phrase from the root note of the phrase itself, then another a 3rd higher, another a 5th higher, etc., but chord knowledge is also part of basic music theory knowledge and if you don't learn it, then harmonizing like a horn player is going to get tricky, if not extremely difficult and since the average harp player, especially the ones you tend to see in an open jam too often get easily intimidated by horn players and are often because they haven't thought that learn basic music theory and getting their time together (and think it ain't their job to do so)was an important part of their skill set, they are often times absolutely horrible at it and wind up screwing the whole thing up BADLY. Many times horn lines have very long holds of notes with ZERO throat vibrato, dynamics within the line (here's where understanding and use of breath control comes in to play) and getting the time straight so that the lines groove like hell, even if a line appears to be simple, but if those things I've mentioned aren't together, then it's gonna be an absolutely horrible mess.
Repeats from a delay unit just means a second helping of the notes split seconds later and that never does a good job of emulating what a real horn section does. It does mean that you gotta stop listening to music like the way many jam hacks do, which means stop listening only to the solos, and take tons of time to listen to stuff that has nothing to do with a solo at all, and obviously, listening more to horn sections, because those horn lines are also rhythm lines and the stuff jump blues horn players did in the 40's later got translated into rhythm guitar parts by guitar players in jump blues bands in the 50's.
Even the black funk/soul/r&b band horn stuff are all rhythm lines, tho not the same as what the jump blues horn guys did, also are rhythm lines, which again, means that unlike the average harp player who goes into the open jams just riffing their brains out with no rhyme or reason, you HAVE to get your knowledge of basic music theory and time straight FIRST and that's something many harp players make lame excuses for not doing so, and because of that, they're usually NOT gonna be unable to pull these things off at all and often times just totally embarrass themselves badly.
When I did some stuff with the Cambridge Harmonica Orchestra, we had to do things quite similar to this with harmonicas and the ones who knew their theory well would easily pull it off needing few if any real rehearsals while others who lacked it had a very difficult time trying. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I just saw Lee Oscar at the Spring Harp Fest here in San Diego. He had a sax player in the band and the way they blended was incredible. When Lee called for the sax player to solo, he dropped into a supporting role that made the solo fuller and better sounding. When they played together is sometimes sounded like two saxes.
I notice that everyone in the band seemed to be reading charts except Lee.
Also, the last David Barrett CD, "It Takes Three", has several songs with harmonized harmonica parts. I'm pretty sure you can buy the tabs in his website.
I keep coming back to the wondrous album, "I Takes Three," by Barrett, Smith and Kumar.
The three virtuosos teamed up to play like a horn section and they did an amazing job. I can listen all day and marvel at how they knitted their harps together like almost like a swing jazz era horn section.
I study it carefully and discover more each time I listen.
I'll certainly echo the advice on studying your music theory. Understand the chords, progressions, and your root/third/fifth/flat-seventh notes available in each of the three chords used in the standard twelve bar progression. Know where they are on your harp, even on the high end (Don't be afraid to work the high end sometimes). Make sure someone is taking the lead, be it a guitar, a horn, or other harp player. Then the others harmonizing can decide where to go off of that. Know if the lead stays with the band or moves away to the I chord during the IV and V chords so you grab the right note. Be careful if you use split octaves, it can sometimes restrict other players and clash. But overall horn lines are great for accompaniment on harp. Not difficult if you got good music theory, and keeps you from just standing there waiting for your solo. Or instead of a straight solo, makes a cool simple duet piece you may not always hear at a jam.
On the blues cruise I sometimes get to play with a horn section at the amateur jam--I love it---I fantasize Im in one of those 50's 60's soul bands--playin in a velour suit " its a great fantasy'
I have to agree, that at some point you will almost be forced into learning some theory--You become stagnant can't figure out, why yr not improving----A lot of that is caused by not knowing some simple chord structures or theory----especially in 145 blues---a lot of simple horn tags end on the root note of the chord being played or at least the root note of the key of the song --- Almost any lead U do or make up will sound somewhat purposeful and somewhat fit-if u ‘END THE RUN ON THE ROOT NOTE OF THE SONG---OR THE ROOT NOTE OF THE CHORD BEING PLAYED’ Later u try an end on the five note of the chord being played or end on the five note of the chord coming up—guitar players end on 1 3 b3 5 a lot
When u first learn some theory u may play a little to structured and canned---but that goes away –pretty soon yr doing it without knowing yr doing it
The fantastic advice here is from people obviously way more knowledgable than I but I would like to emphasize one thing that is extremely important when harmonizing with horns, other harmonicas or even just doubling or playing an octave higher with other instruments, etc.: intonation. Unlike on a saxophone, say, there are notes on the harp that are rather abstract and you need your ear—and muscle memory—to hit those pitches close enough so that they do not clash with another instrument where on the other instrument the musician merely pushes a button and can play the note on pitch (I know that's a simplification, but generally true). Whole and half step bends need to be clean and straightforward—no vibrato or sliding into notes to hide your technique missing the target note. This is counter-intuitive to a lot of blues playing on harp and definitely is a challenge. I sometimes play with a sax player and have learned a lot abut doubling riffs, harmonizing, etc.
@BC .... How Does Playing Splits Restrict other players? Never heard this before ..
@BC/Snowman/General Question.
What would you say is the best resource for really getting deep into the 1-4-5? I really sucked about skipping all that kinda stuff initially. I mean i know the basics. How to count it, etc. What i need is more along the lines of what your video was touching on. How to learn what notes for each chord and things of that nature. Alot of lessons seem to kinda glaze over this.
I should probably start a new thread for this. Sorry. Infact I will start a new thread ....
---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 27, 2016 7:47 PM
I should clarify that playing splits is more challenging when harmonizing with other harp players. Right off the bat your 2/5 and 3/6 draw splits are not true octaves and sound dissonant. Great for building tension, but not so great for harmonizing. The split octaves are a strong technique, so may overpower someone playing a single note. Also if you are harmonizing with just octaves you are using two holes, you've just taking away one hole option from another player. Now of course both players could play split octaves. For four hole blow octaves you have options along the harp, but works on the IV chord. Draw octaves are more challenge as you'll need to venture on the high end as well as use five hole splits. Of course in all thing experiment, listen, and ask yourself "Does this even sound good".
David Barrett's bluesharmonica.com has a lesson on horn lines and harmonizing. This also includes a transcription of "It takes three", which is great for studying ideas on harmonizing. Of course he has lessons on all the good music theory like which notes work well for each chord. But note you will need a membership to access it.
Ahh i see. Your speaking specifically about harmonizing. I was thinking you meant, for instance, that if i play a split I'm limiting the guitar players options.
As far as Bluesharmonica.com, perhaps it's time i give that site another go. I'm more into TB now and need to get into all the "boring stuff" that i skipped initially. I wasnt crazy about the structured learning style at first, but now it may be just what i need. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Thank you for the recommended tips, as soon as I get home will check the videos and links.
Its funny that because I play Harmonica, most people assume I hate theory and skip it.
I want to learn all theory possible, but its hard to on this instrument when you are a self taught.
My references have been This site, Adam's videos (both here and Youtube) and a couple of David Barret's books.
I will sign up for bluesharmonica.com tho, will give it a shot.
I'm starting to read music (will need to practice it) Starting with chrom (real playing tho no "3rd position" lol) And playing with way better musicians that myself helps. But the growing process is slow.
I'm really interested in starting trumpet and get into lessons and maybe getting a keyboard for education purposes.
Dave books are great but are really limited and just the tip of the iceberg for every topic they cover. I hope the site is better loaded.
Also I'm ordering Max deAloe chromatic book, and have been following Winslow's chrom site.
Music is tough specially when yer have 0 time to study...
Oh well
Last Edited by DannyRanch on Mar 28, 2016 12:02 PM
@Danny Ranch -- The very first sentence in your post is the general stereotype of the average harmonica player and unfortunately, too often it's the cold, hard brutal truth that the average harp player haven't got the guts to face up to and then these very same harp players wonder why people who play other instruments have an extremely low opinion of them and when they keep fulfilling and JUSTIFYING the negative stereotype, then they fully DESERVE to get dissed. If you play another instrument, let's say guitar or a horn as an example, people AUTOMATICALLY assume that you have a working knowledge of basic music theory and time (even tho there ARE those who don't) and with harmonica players, it's the EXACT OPPOSITE. I'm largely self taught myself, but unlike the average player, i made damned sure I took the initiative to learn it and it helped me be a FAR better musician overall than the average harp player tends to be and since too many of them refuse or are just too damned lazy to learn these things, it's no wonder I often hear from those who play other instruments that harmonica players are often considered the dumbest goddamned musician on the bandstand and whenever harp players do these things, they ALWAYS piss me off because they're the ones giving the instrument and its players a bad name and NOT those who play other instruments.
Learning to sight reed is a related skill, but not the necessity it once was unless you're gonna be playing jazz, classical or be a full time recording studio session pro, but if you CAN sight read, it's to your own advantage. Two harp players I know for a FACT that can sight read very well are Howard Levy (who actually started out as a jazz keyboard player before he ever began playing harmonica) and Magic Dick, who taught himself how to sight read and who also plays trumpet and sax as well.
The vast majority of harp players I've met over the years who tend to have excellent knowledge of theory by a pretty wide margin have also played other instruments as well, especially if they started on an entirely different instrument other than the harmonica first. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I don't want to be a harmonica player either, I want to be a musician.
So that's why I'm asking for advise, before harmonica I played electric bass, self taught again, and I have been learning way more about music theory playing harmonica the way I do than the way I was playing bass (punk music...)
Anyway I recognize it is not enough, and I hit barriers a lot when playing and performing.
I play with horns a lot, and it is frustrating when you are knowledge limited.
We played one show without the trumpet player once, so I learned all his parts by ear and then jumped in with the alto and tenor player.
And they liked it, but it took me a lot of time to do so, and would like to get a more formal approach.
So yes, trumpet is my next to go. Playing trumpet formally will make my harmonica playing better guaranteed.
But meanwhile I get a trumpet and find a good place to start I need to keep going and growing
Also my struggle is I know the basics, but there is a point when I try to study something that or it is too basic or it is too advanced.
I have scale degrees major-minor triads, sevenths, 9ths.
But some things I have to learn for example the function of the 6th, what is a 11th a 13th a flat 9th.
Chromatic approaches, passing tones, etc!
And regarding harmonica players being looked as mediocre musicians.
I would blame lot of the instructors that can be found (without putting names) that just show licks and arrows and such instead of actual music things, but that is an unnecessary discussion tho.
@Danny Ranch -- Part of the problem is that there are still some harmonica players who still think of the instrument as a toy rather than a real musical instrument, and that doesn't help one bit. Theory still scares the living s**t out of harp players and dogmatic study of theory tends to scare the hell out of them, which doesn't help and in many ways, they often have to be babied along to barely understand it. Getting them to sit down and study things in a serious manner can be a real challenge. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@Bob ... That may be true. I know I'm a culprit of skipping over the "boring" stuff. Atleast until i could play a bit. Now I want to learn, but am finding that if you want to learn theory as it applies to harmonica, its not so easy. It's not just sitting there waiting for you as it is with other instruments. And as dannyranch said ... some lessons you finally find a piece, but it's just the tip of the iceberg and it just leaves you hanging. Trust me, I don't want to be the dumb ass up there on stage going "wait guys, whats goin on?"
But you really have to go out of your way to learn this stuff. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
I studied music for a couple of years before I switched majors and went into engineering. I am now a professional engineer and and amateur musician. As I am getting back into music, I am finding that the harmonica, because it is diatonic, is helping me to understand theory in a way I never did learning it from a keyboard. I am also seeing a similarity in the depth and breadth of knowledge required to do music well, and that required for engineering. The topics are both so huge that no one person will ever master all of either of them. There are also some basic simple principles that when learned, advance your abilities considerably over those who do not understand them, but do not make you competent in the field. Most people understand this about engineering, but not about music.
Last Edited by STME58 on Mar 29, 2016 7:31 AM
The biggest disadvantage for a harp player (or even a horn player as well) is that you don't have a way visually to see where things are laid out wheras with a keyboard instrument (or even with a string instrument like a guitar, banjo or mandolin), you can see things very visually and it becomes easier to memorize and learning theory is the GRADUAL process of getting yourself "muscle memory" so that you're at a point where thinking about it becomes unnecessary and everything naturally falls into place.
When people get lessons for other instruments, learning theory is part of the lesson plan but too often for harp players, especially those teaching themselves this instrument, it's too often they're trying to spend too much time attempting to learn licks and not learning how to be a musician and harp players are notorious for shooting themselves in the foot because of this.
@STME58 -- Wow!! Talk about reverse engineering in learning because usually it's easier to learn theory from a keyboard instrument than it is with a harmonica or wind instrument. I agree with you that the topic is big enough that it's impossible to learn everything in a single setting and too many players tend to think they can try and learn it in a few minutes and I know that certainly wasn't the case for me. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I agree that teaching learning the rudiments of theory is best done on a keyboard, but I think a lot of people overlook the power of a diatonic instrument in helping to reinforce how the keys relate to each other. If I have a chromatic instrument and I have to play in Eb, I just do it if I know the scale. If I have a C harp and I have to play in Eb I really have to think about it and learn which notes C and Eb have in common.
