Killa_Hertz
730 posts
Mar 11, 2016
4:01 PM
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I was reading the TB blow bend thread and was wondering if anyone has any different advice for draw bends.
I dont really use blow bends to much. I'm kinda still stuck in the bottom end. Origionally thought I wouldn't need to learn TB bends, but i find that when using TB its not always an option to switch back to pucker. Like slapping/pulling from/to a bend.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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slaphappy
178 posts
Mar 11, 2016
4:28 PM
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yes, TB all the time.
Just commit to it for a month or two and you may never go back..
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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sonny3
312 posts
Mar 11, 2016
4:54 PM
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I think Lee Sankeys videos on TB really got me going.
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mlefree
621 posts
Mar 11, 2016
5:18 PM
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I'll start with a question.
When you draw bend on a low hole on a lower key harp, say holes two or three on a G or A harp, with a pursed lip embouchure can you feel vibrations in your throat and even down into your lungs as you approach the basement notes? This is another way of asking, do you use the back of your tongue and the muscles at the top of your throat in your bending process? Do your jaw and "yawn" muscles take an active role in your LP bending?
It is so obvious as to almost not be worth stating that the front part of your tongue isn't available with tongue- or u-blocking. You must therefore enlist all the other available means to effect a bend.
I've referred to it so often that I'm in danger of being redundant, but it's also worth restating the importance of the role of Helmoltz Resonance in forming notes and producing good tone in harmonica playing. I'll leave it to you to look it up if you haven't already but basically what it means is that we must tune our oral and upper airway cavities to the target frequency of the note we wish to play. High note, short wavelength, smaller air (resonant) cavity. Low note, longer wavelength, larger resonant cavity.
So how to effect changes in the volume of our airways if the front of our tongue is out of the picture? Learn to be aware of what the middle and back of your tongue and the musculature down the back of your throat are all doing. Relax everything as you play a low hole note on a low key hard down. Then in synchrony drop your jaw, move the middle of your tongue to the left most part of your oral cavity, make the back of your tongue drop down, open your yawn muscles wide.
That should get you on the right track. Let us know how you fare.
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Mar 11, 2016 5:20 PM
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Killa_Hertz
731 posts
Mar 11, 2016
5:19 PM
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TB in general im ok with. From holes 3 n up anyways. But bending TB ,accurately, is tough. I like the switch back and forth between the two while playing, depending on what im doing. I dont really plan on ever doing only one embouchure, but i would still like to be equally as good both ways. And it would be very useful to be able to bend well TB.
The one place i haven't checked is Bluesharmonica.com. Daves lessons are all TB.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Killa_Hertz
732 posts
Mar 11, 2016
5:50 PM
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Michelle ... Thanks for that. I have found alot of this out either on my own or by trying to learn getting a richer tone. I learned recently to bend with the back of my tongue while keeping the throat open. Thanks to some tips from Winslow. It was good to hear you put the rest of it into words tho.
Only after learning this applied to pucker was i able to bend TB at all. But I can only get the bends all the way down and cant even do that well at all. Forget about any of the middle 3 or 2 draw bends. I guess i just need to hit it hard n practice.
Ill have to look up the helmoltz theory.
Thanks michelle. By what you said it seems im on the right track atleast.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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SuperBee
3507 posts
Mar 11, 2016
6:32 PM
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Really I think the front of the tongue isn't doing very much when you bend with tongue off harp either. It's not like it's a long way away from the harp, it's just not anchored at the comb.
I learned to do it by accident and then I asked about it and was told no one does that. Sometime later I found Dave Barrett who told me heaps of people do it that way...so I asked how about Jerry Portnoy? And Dave asked JP on my behalf...Jerry said he doesn't tongue block the bottom 3 anymore because he thought he developed an asymmetric embouchure and he didn't like that so he transitions at hole 4. But Dave said, that's ok for Jerry and you can do what you want.
But how you do it...same as how you learned to bend tongue off, except with the tip of your tongue resting on the comb. Move you're tongue like you normally would but keep the tip anchored there. It's not very far forward of wher it would be anyway...it's just learning to move one part of the tongue and not another...
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Killa_Hertz
733 posts
Mar 11, 2016
9:26 PM
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God Damn Captcha. Im not retyping all that.
The long n short was ....
@Bee i know your right. What you say makes perfect sense, but apparently its not that easy. Lol.
I feel like moving the tongue forward to meet the harp shifts the k spot forward n sets everything off.
So to counter that i got the harp much deeper in my mouth. Aswell as used the top of my tongue rather than the tip/side. I can now hit all of the 2 draw bends(not well, but .. ) Also tried focusing on opening the mouth throat cavity more to get better tone. Its fairly good progress for a short time i guess. They re still a bit muddled, but its gettin there.
So ... practice .. practice ... n more practice. Ill figure it out.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Mar 11, 2016 9:27 PM
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slaphappy
179 posts
Mar 11, 2016
11:41 PM
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try the bluesharmonica.com sample lesson #2 if you want to check it out. this tune really helped me get my TB bends in shape.
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4' 4+ 3' 2~~~
-Mike Ziemba
Harmonica is Life!
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SuperBee
3508 posts
Mar 12, 2016
12:15 AM
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If you can do it at all, you are on the way to doing it right.
Yep, I really don't think about the side too much, just playing the hole you want.
If you're able to bend it, Dave will be able to get you most of the rest of the way
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mlefree
622 posts
Mar 12, 2016
4:27 AM
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You're spot-on about the ineffectiveness of the front of the tongue for doing lip pursed draw bends, SuperBee. I'd argue that the front of the tongue does play a significant role in LP blow bends, but that isn't the subject of this thread. Still, even though the tip of the tongue may not play an active role in lip purse (LP) draw bending, not being anchored it is free to move and its position can have a dramatic impact on the effectiveness as well as the tone of the resulting bend.
In order to describe what I mean about that I am going to use very specific technical terms about the position of the tongue as used in the field of phonetics. Phoneticians need to be able to communicate with each other about the functions of the lips and tongue in speech (just as we do in describing how we play the harmonica). As a result, the terminology surrounding the anatomical features of the mouth as it is used in the formation of words has been worked out in the field of Phonetics long ago.
We can use the same tools phoneticians use in discussions about what goes on inside the mouth when playing a harmonica. Here is a very useful interactive graphic of a (sagittal or front to back) cross-section of the head. It looks like this.
We can't display the interaction of the Interactive Sagittal Section program (ISS) "live" so to speak in a Dirty South post so you'll have to view the GIF in another window and follow along with me.
Interactive Sagittal Section
You'll agree that many if not most beginners are taught to bend by shaping their tongue as if saying the vowels "E" and "U" (or oooh). I'll demonstrate how big an impact the position of the tongue has on lip pursed bent note tone. Try just saying "eeeee" first with the tip of your tongue in the normal position sort of bunched up toward the floor of your mouth behind your teeth (at least that's normal for me).
Then set the ISS radio buttons as follows:
- Lips: Rounded
- Tongue Manner: Fricative
- Place: Velar
Say the vowel "eeee" while you move your tongue from its normal position at the bottom front of your mouth behind your teeth to the fricative position in the ISS using these settings. You can still say "eeee" but the tone is dramatically changed.
I suppose I could have made this point without the fancy phonetics diagram by stating that you can still make an "eeee" sound with your tongue in the "oooh" position but the resulting tone is terrible.
The take-away is that when playing the harmonica, wagging the tip of your tongue around or pointing it up into the air inside your mouth is a tone killer.
So yes, you can draw bend without paying attention to the tip of your tongue, but you will pay the consequences in the form of poor tone. Keep that tip of your tongue anchored to the floor of your mouth behind your front teeth.
Anyway, I love to cite this ISS because people are always saying that learning the harmonica is so difficult because you can't tell someone else what goes on inside your mouth. With this Interactive Sagittal Section you can both learn the proper technical terms about tongue position and then communicate aspects of your playing technique to other players and students in person or online together. I think that's pretty cool.
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Mar 12, 2016 5:09 AM
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Killa_Hertz
734 posts
Mar 12, 2016
7:02 AM
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Michelle ... with my short few weeks in trying ... ill have to agree that, that is MY problem atleast. I know it can be done. Ive heard pro players do it. Lol. But i do use the tip of my tongue as you describe while LP. Especially on the 3 draw bends.
I have made more progress since starting this thread that i had the whole time trying by myself. It's funny what a lil simple explaination can do. Also I find that while typing my problem out and describing it to someone else, often I solve my own issue.
I can a few more of the bends now.(poorly) I had a few AhHa moments last night. The thing that was the most discouraging was that i just found decent tone with LP bends. It felt like I was starting over. The tone was muddled and awful. Its still awful, but I have been able to get out a few belting sustained TB 2 and 4 draw bends. So ... enough to keep me moving forward with it.
Im finding it hard to get the "pressure" to get those basement notes to really hit. I thought i was leaking air thru neighboring holes, but I don't think that is the case.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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mlefree
624 posts
Mar 12, 2016
11:45 AM
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Uh oh. You said a bad word, Killa. Pressure.
That indicates to me that you're trying too hard. Pressure is not the answer for good low bends (or another). Creating a bigger resonant volume is the right way to go. You'll break harps trying to create "pressure."
Michelle
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SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
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The Iceman
2837 posts
Mar 13, 2016
6:27 AM
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mlefree is doing a nice job of re-stating what I've been teaching (and posting) about bending technique for many many years.
However, I always go for simplicity, so would rephrase the very specific technical terms about the position of the tongue as used in the field of phonetics.
1. Become aware of the roof of the mouth area that is touched by your tongue when saying "T", "D", "K", and "Guh". (These become target points for where you arc your tongue towards). Use this as a reference as you self-discover bend/pitch placement, so you can reproduce accurately at will.
2. Pretend the tip of your tongue is super glued to the spot where your lower teeth and gums meet. (Or, in a more advanced endeavor, where your tongue touches the harmonica in TB).
Breathe the harmonica. It's all about finesse, not force.
This is how I teach total beginners how to bend accurately to pitch within the first few weeks of lessons.
I actually have many beginners who can play in 12th position pretty quickly. (The only thing I don't tell them is that what they are doing is considered hard and takes years of practice to achieve).
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Mar 13, 2016 6:29 AM
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Diggsblues
1985 posts
Mar 13, 2016
6:36 AM
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Killa I think it's time to hear you play something because everything is theoretical and may help you but those you are trying to get help from would have a much better idea where you're at.
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Killa_Hertz
736 posts
Mar 13, 2016
9:07 AM
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Diggs ... that's probably true. Im waiting to get a computer and then ill prolly upload some stuff.
Michelle .. i knew you were going to say that .. lol. That's why i put pressure in quotes. I don't really mean it in that sense. But try hitting a good deep 2" draw bend with the right corner of your mouth pulled away.
So what i mean is its very leaky and airy as if there is air coming thru an adjacent hole or somewhere in my embouchure. Other times i hit it right on, but cant seem to figure out what im doin right/wrong.
So Seal might have been a better description than pressure.
I think i may have to do a bit of work on my TB embouchure. It sounds fine playing, but when trying to bend i think it may be the cultprit.
Ill try to get some recordings up.
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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Killa_Hertz
738 posts
Mar 13, 2016
11:48 AM
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I just realized that the draw bend with the corner of your mouth pulled away is a bad example. I actually tried it and i could bend just fine. So im not sure how to describe it exactly.
The 2 draw bends seem to be easiest. The 4 is horrible. But they re probably about what my LP bends were at first. I think Ill be good with some practice
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"Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
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