I'm new here, and have only been "playing" the harp for about 3 months. I've managed to build up a fair selection of harps so far to try and give me a comparison, and had a friend of mine who's been playing for a long time try them out too, just to make sure it wasn't ONLY my duff embrochure which is affecting my judgement (several Seydel Blues Session - find they all need a bit too much air ootb; couple of Blues Harp MS - less than impressed; 3 SP20 - my favourites so far, just the response on hole two on the C is a bit slow and muffled on both reeds compared to the Seydel; and a Manji in G - love the sound of chords on this one). Since I'm not completely happy with any of my 3 C harps (does that sound like the kind of excuse the wife will let me get away with? ;) ) I was thinking about getting a MB Deluxe in C, til I read that the comb isn't - as was originally intended - triple sealed, and people have had a lot of problems with the combs swelling. I've hunted high and low to try and find out whether this issue has now been addressed, but all the info I've dredged up so far seems to be at least 2 years old, so I was wondering if anyone who has recently bought a MB Dx could confirm whether this has been sorted out, or if you still have to seal the comb yourself when you buy one.
Thanks a lot for your time, and Happy Harping, guys.
I've only bought one marine band deluxe, purchased in 2007. no problem with comb swelling in the first 5 years. I did eventually replace the comb though. I've seen a lot of deluxes because my best customer plays them primarily, and plays very hard. I've seen 30 deluxes in for reed replacement, have not see any sign of swelling. I have actually never heard/read any complaint of marine band deluxe comb swelling. People used to have the problem with marine band 1896 but I have been regularly hitting this board since 2010 and can't recall any complaint about the deluxe. For what it's worth, the marine band 1896 also has a sealed comb since...I forget the year...2012? Anyway, it's essentially the same comb as in the deluxe these days, just without the chamfered tines and lacquered tips
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 21, 2016 5:34 AM
The Marine Band Deluxe does indeed have a sealed comb. That is one of the upgrades that makes it a "deluxe" model.
Just a thought as you ponder your next purchase. You already have 3 C harps. Buying another one may or may not solve your problem. You would be well advised to start learning how to adjust the gaps on the reed plates. That alone will help the harps you already have play better. There is a tremendous amount of information on YouTube about this. Good luck and welcome to the asylum. ---------- Tom Halchak www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
@ SuperBee - I wonder if Hohner are putting them out with different specs for different markets, although that would surprise me. I live in Germany and have been trawling the German forums, which is where I had read that although Hohner had been originally triple sealing the combs, they stopped after the first few batches, probably due to cost reasons. Suppose it'd be worth a try, cos I've since found out it's easy enough to seal the comb yourself if necessary.
@ Tom - great advice, thanks. I've already tried embossing the lower slots (1-6) on my MS harps, with limited success. I don't seem to be moving enough brass to close the slots up properly, and they end up looking rather jagged. I've convinced myself that they do need less air since doing it, but I'm sure it's just a matter of practice to get better at it. ATM both MS harps are dismantled, as I've soaked the combs in mineral oil for a few days cos they seemed to be untreated. While I'm waiting for the combs to dry, I'm going to flat sand the draw plates and have another go at improving the embossing, then I'll check the combs to see if they need flat sanded too. I just heard that the MB Dx is supposed to be pretty airtight ootb, and the vented cover plates (like the Manji) should give it the possibility of getting plenty of tone out of it... once I get my lips up to scratch. Looks like I belong in the asylum after all :D.
@Tigertoo1962 IMHO Unless you have extraordinary breath control and unless you are into sustained overbending (which would be unusual after only 3 months of playing) you should not need to attempt embossing any harmonicas for a while. For normal playing and the occasional short overbend, gapping will do the job on most harps.
Adjusting the reed gaps should address any problems with airiness at this stage. As Tom noted, there are a lot of online explanations of gapping. Ultimately if you are gentle about it you will learn how to gap for your playing.
If your reed plates or the comb are not reasonably flat, the harp may be leaky. Some people buy new flat combs. Before I assume this is the case I reset the reed plates, which can help. Just loosen the reed plate screws a bit and then tighten them gently again starting from the middle moving out. Then start at the middle again and repeat. Don't overdo the tightening, just get them all snug.
I am not a fan of MS harps, but they can be OK when gaps are adjusted. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 21, 2016 8:27 AM
I'm still at the stage where I'm trying to get my low bends under control, never mind attempting overbends. I was under the impression that one of the reasons for embossing was also to improve the airtightness. Is this not the case after all?
Re gapping, from what I've read so far, the gap should be approx. equal to the thickness of the reed - is this generally true as a starting point? This is more or less what I've tried on a few of my harps, but maybe I just need to experiment a bit more. I'm not even going to dig into "reed curvatures" ATM, cos I wouldn't even know how to measure it.
Given the fact that the harps are all new, I don't think they can all be badly leaking. I'm probably exaggerating the "airiness" I'm experiencing. The friend I had try them out had his pimped harps with him - the ones he plays all the time - and I'm probably subconsciously comparing mine with them, which is a bit like trying to get your VW to drive like a Porsche. I definitely find a marked difference between the Seydels and the SP20s, but maybe that's even down to the fact that they're different shapes, and my lack of technique can't adapt to that so well as yet.
@Tiggertoo1962 Embossing does improve air tightness, but at your stage of learning should not be necessary to get good bends. I have some embossed harps from a harp customizer, and I like them a lot, but they are not necessary in the early phases of learning. When you have regular bending under control and want to explore beginning over bends, an embossed harp will help, especially if you want to sustain overbends. With regard to gaps, you seem to have the right idea. If a reed is choking pretty often, widen the gap, if it is airy, narrow the gap. Use very small changes or you may wreck the reed.
In the early stages of learning it is all about your breath, and your learning to shape your oral cavity to support the note with good tone and to bend notes. I am assuming that you can play single notes. Another factor is that with each different key of harp there are diffences in supporting a note with good tone. If you change from an F (high pitch) harp to a G (low pitch) harp there is a significant difference in how you shape the note.
Finally, different brands may require small changes in how you attack a note to create a bend.
My suggestion would be to pick one harp in one key that you like and work on technique (not force) in working on bends. I am going to link a couple videos, though there are many out there worth checking out. They may not address what you are working on, if so, please search out other videos.
Working on harps is a necessary skill, but an out of the box Hohner, Suzuki, or Seydel harp $35 and up should play well enough for a beginner without major work, with the exception of possibly narrowing the gaps a bit. My suggestion is to work on technique for a bit in one key, then move to another when you are getting the hang of it. So much of what the harp does is based on our breath from the diaphragm and tuning our oral cavity to the note. ----------
No one else noticed the 2 hole issue was probably the nooby 2 hole problem. No offence intended Tig.
I did the same thing. As I'm sure alot of you did. MY 2 HOLE IS FLAT AND BUSTED. ...WTF!!!!
Tigger i like my gaps tighter than what you mentioned, but try to find the gap you like by the 1 hole or maybe the 4. When they play right you ll know what area YOUR harps gaps should be.
The 2 hole is problematic at first. You have to try to breathe through it with an open throat. Not suck like a McDonald's Straw. That s my advice. Watch the first video doug posted and practice that.
I find that 2 hole reeds OOTB are often Way too highly gapped for my taste. But if your ding it right it should have a good sound. A good rich sound. If your playing it incorrectly you ll know because it will sound crappy and flat.
Hope that helped.
P.S. embossing is not necessary. And you ll ruin harps by doing it wrong at first. Trust me, i did. Focus on gapping. Your harps will play plenty well when properly gapped. Then just practice.
In the beginning you can do light arching by putting a thick piece of paper (I use feeler gauges ) under the reed, support it in the middle and give it a light arch by pulling it up slightly. This makes sure the tip does not enter the slot first. And also allows for tighter gaps. Search it and watch a video before attempting. Good Luck. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 21, 2016 3:50 PM
@ Doug. Thanks bud, great videos and lots of good advice there. I can play single notes - until my mouth gets tired, that is - and have quite a few simple blues riffs, chuggs, and chord accompanyments down. Although I get pretty decent tone much of the time, I'm still struggling to get consistency - but I suppose with 3 months experience, I shouldn't be too hard on myself. TBH I had been playing a few weeks before I came across diaphragmatic breathing, and have the feeling that if I don't concentrate - or sometimes when I concentrate too much - I go back to blowing and sucking.
@ Killa_Hertz. No offence taken, mate. Well spotted. I threw that out there cos I'm aware of the 2 hole draw problem, and wondered if this could still be the cause, given the fact that I can get a decent tone on the 2 draw of most of my other harps, and that the tone and response problems on this harp happen on both the blow AND the draw reeds. I'll give it another few days practising, and if I don't manage to nail it, open the harp up and try gapping the reeds on the 2 hole.
On all my G harps I have trouble getting the bends low enough on holes 1 & 2, and keep running out of air (probably cos they have the longest reeds) but, funnily enough, I can bend the 3 draw better on them than on any of my other harps. Wondering if this points to the possibility that I'm using force to bend them instead of technique? Apropos technique. I've seen some people advise pulling the tongue up and back to accelerate the air flow, and others say to drop your jaw and use the "AA-EE-OO-UU" method. I've tried both, and one technique seems to work better than the other in certain keys and positions, and vice cersa. Is there a definite opinion on this, or is it a case of "whatever works"?
... and here was me asking if the comb on the MB Dx is sealed...
Last Edited by Tiggertoo1962 on Jan 22, 2016 5:27 AM
My MBDs are sealed and I have had no problems with swelling so far...
Lower keyed harps require changes in your mouth and throat in finding the proper resonance for bending. I just started using low harps a couple years ago and love how they sound with amplification. Practice on low harps is needed, and I still am working on some keys of low harp bending on the 1 and 2 holes. I am pretty much OK with Low F and on my Low F#, but struggle with the 1 and 2 bends on Low E and Low Eb. But those last two harps are Big Rivers, MS harps, and I found that for me the Big River and Blues Harp MS harps are more difficult to bend than other harps, even the A and G MS harps. The plus is that when you get them bending at will and switch back to other harps, the others bend so easily!
The EE..Uhh approach to bending is a good start, but ultimately we refine bends as we practice, and the key of the harp makes a difference. Whatever works for you, but don't count on forcing it to be a good approach. As you practice on different harps and pitches you build muscle memory. ----------
The MBD's made in the last three years are fully sealed has a far better sealing job than the stock MB's of the last three years as well. However, prior to the last three years, the MBD's, just like the Hering 1923 Vintage Harps, were only partially sealed, meaning just sealed on the visible outer edges of the comb and the only version that would have a swelling problem at all would be the older stock of them. The present stock of MB's have a single coat of sealing and the MBD's have five coats, just like they Seydel 1847 Classic does.
Don't ever use harder breath force at all for the lower notes and the correct approach is to take some time and make VERY SUBTLE ADJUSTMENTS to your embouchure as well as the inside shape of your mouth or you're always gonna have a problem. Each key needs very subtle adjustments that you have to woodshed to in order to get comfortable with them.
Players who are new to the instrument and teaching themselves have always been guilty (98% of them to be exact) of using far too much breath force in their playing and always wind up being their own worst enemy in the process. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Due to all the sound advice above, I decided just to go with what I have in the meantime. Before putting my MS harps back together I flat sanded the draw reed plates and the combs, and had a go at gapping the reeds. Well whaddaya know? They've almost turned into my favourite harps, if it wasn't for the fact that the SP20s still sound a tad better - especially on chords. Doesn't mean I won't be getting a MBDx, just not in C :).
Could someone tell me if it's worthwhile flat sanding the reed plates on my Seydels, given the fact they're not a "sandwich" design, but have the plates set into the combs. Logic tell me yes, as the plates are pulled tight onto the combs by the screws. I really like the clear tone of these harps, but it annoys me that they seem more leaky than the SP20s in the same key, even after gapping. Could it be possible that I'm not getting the cover plates on dead right, or is there there no room for manoever once the plate screws are on?
@ Bob - I'm definitely in the "guilty 98%", which was partly at first due to fact I was blowing and sucking. Now that I've got my diaphragmatic breathing down (most of the time) I suppose the main thing is to work on my embrochure. Been watching a lot of vids by Adam, Jason Ricci, Mitch Grainger and the like, and although I can hit single notes all over the harps no problem, I STILL have the feeling I need too much air. Any further tips would be appreciated.
Some 10 years or more ago, I was experimenting with beeswax sealing MB combs, drilling and tapping and installing screws in reed plates and covers. It was a lot of work and molten beeswax can be dangerous as well. I was lucky I didn't set a fire or burn myself. While it was true that the wax made a very good seal, what that did for me was allow me to blow out reeds faster. What convinced me to just play them instead of all the other stuff was when I tried to seal a 270 chromatic comb, and warped it to death in a low heat oven.
I fall back on Manji for my primary harp mostly. I do have some Hohners as well- MB custom here and there, BR low D, and also I was given a couple of the Easttop harps to evaluate, which I am diligently using in practice and rehearsals and plan to blow at upcoming gigs as well. I think I even have a Bushman DF someplace. For me the point is, I want a great ootb harp that has no seal issues. I may do just a bit of gapping but for the most part it's plug and play for me.
@tiggertoo, probably the most important thing I did for my playing- and my voice- was take a few voice lessons and learn how to use focused air and not breath force. Ala barbequebob. It comes with time. I also believe that as I get to know my air capabilities and my harps, I adjust to the harps and have inherent knowledge about how to drive each of them.
One other note, the absolute BEST move I ever made was I stopped smoking some years ago. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
I'd say no it is not worth flat-sanding the draw plate of a session. Odds are the comb is not flat. Those are some very ordinary combs. Luckily they come in pretty colours so you can find them attractive despite their relatively poor function. Nothing you can do about it really, except use a different comb. The harps are usually quite playable anyway so I think not worth fretting about
@ jbone - I'll have to have a word with my daughter when I see her. She had singing lessons for 2 years, so it's time she was teaching her old dad something ;). As for stopping smoking, I suppose now I have a better reason than I ever had before. I'll have to give it ANOTHER try...
@ SuperBee - checked out combs for the Seydel Session to try and find alternatives, but sll I could find were the coloured combs for the Session Steel. All a matter of preference, but man, do I ever think they make the harps look cheap and UGLY! Since working hard on my breathing over the past week, I don't find the Seydels so bad any more - still prefer the SP20s though. Anyone know if anybody out there does custom combs for the Seydel Blues Session harp and, if so, are they any good?
@tigger- I don't know how many times I wanted to stop but it took about 3 real efforts for me. I got a scrip for Welbutrin and did the patch thing and it worked. I think mainly because I was just ready. I wish you success. Your daughter can help you find your deep in the torso center, where your real voice lives. Most people use maybe 1/3 of their breathing capacity, you have to find that depth consciously. I probably use 2/3 or more of my capacity if I warm up before playing. ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
