For smaller blues oriented gigs I use a 5 (or maybe it´s 10?) W tube amplifier, that somehow comes into its own for that kind of sound first when you´ve cranked it up quite a bit. Not unusual, as I understand it. The problem is that even this have proven a bit too loud in some contexts, and I´m wondering if any of you have budget oriented tips for getting the right sound a lower volume? (Even at 5 (out of 10) on the volume level it´s been too loud.)
I´ve tried a few different mics; and I´ve fiddled with my EQ pedal -- increasing the "level" -- but that´s not satisfying. The sound becomes too hard. Should I take The Kinks brothers approach to the speaker and attack it with a knife?
Lone Wolf pedals: Harp Break, Harp Attack, Harp Octave. But they are not quite as budget-oriented as the knife! (I suspect others will say the cheapest way is to get the sound you want with playing technique, like letting some adjacent hole bleed in.)
Last Edited by TetonJohn on Jan 06, 2016 8:39 AM
This might not be the most budget minded solution since you would need to buy new gear, but I have been playing around with the Vox Mini-5 and they have a feature that is built in specifically for what you are talking about. You can toggle a switch between 5 watts, 1.5 watts and .5 watts, the idea being that you can still get the amount of breakup that you want even at a low volume. You can add a JOYO American pedal to this rig for another $30 and make the Vox mini sound realllllllly good, even at low volumes.. ---------- -LeWin$key
Last Edited by Harmonica Lewinskey on Jan 06, 2016 11:45 AM
I agree that the Lone Wolf Harp Attack or Harp Break into the PA is a great option for this.
If you want to use an amp, then a 5 watt champ style amp is always a good choice for low volumes gigs (I can get mine to break up at volumes not much louder than watching the TV).
Mic choice always makes a difference. Maybe try a mic with a volume control, then you can turn up the amp and keep the mic low. A good cup on the mic also helps an amp break up a lot.
Other than that good old tongue blocking will help.
What would probably work out good for you is using a speaker attenuator between the amp and the speaker. It basically uses some of the energy normally sent to the speaker and turns it into heat in a couple big resistors. This still allows you to drive the power tube for breakup, but sends less energy to the speaker. You can search online for one or make one using this calculator: http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/DriverAttenuationLPadCircuit/
Playing at low volume with breakup is exactly where a solid-state modelling amp shines, especially one with a power level switch, such as the Vox Mini 5. Switch it to 1 W or less. Same sound, less volume. Also inexpensive. Great for indoor practice too. ----------
Turning the mic volume down? Isn't that kinda counter productive? With less signal to the preamp, and then obviously the power amp, doesn't the point at which the amp breaks up increase? If anything i would thing you would want to boost the signal in to just get a lil preamp break up. Right?
Your probably better of with one of the two suggested options. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth... Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Just to make sure, you're preamp tube isn't a low gain ("harp friendly") 12au7, right? If so, you could change to a regular 12ax7 and breakup will probably occur on lower vol level. You probably knew that already.
But if you already have a 12ax7 in there, maybe you could try an even higher gain tube. 12ax7 is generally already at maximum gain, so normally there is no higher gain tube, but I was checking out the retrovalves at jetcityamplificatin after reading another post here on the forum about the tubes ("retro tubes"), and they seem to have a tube that's even higher gain than 12ax7. The "red" tube. It would probably give you breakup at lower volume level.
I haven't tried the retrovalves, but I liked the sound of the one in the blind test clip that was posted here in the forum so might be worth a try. http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5491081.htm
They also seem to have a shop in the UK you can order from: http://www.jetcityamplificationstore.co.uk/product/retrovalves/
Barley I may not be a great harp player, Yet! But I am an electrical super hero. ..... £8^)> ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth... Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Marlin what kind of controls do u have on the amp? Just Volume and Tone? Or do you have a Gain and/or Master Volume? ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth... Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jan 06, 2016 7:49 PM
Now it seems there may be problems with the retrovalves I was talking about, according to 1847 in the "retro tubes" thread...they seem to have blown out two of his amps!
Love me my GA20 Gibson (see video above)- the later two-tone version, - It breaks up early, compress and sings at fairly low volume, - but probably not at as low a volume as you are asking for. Pedals/ emulators are probably the way to go. Never tried the mini-5 but sounds like it's worth a go too.
You said you tried various mic.s but didn't mention which ones. A hot bullet makes all the dif. on any amp.
@Killa & Barley: Agreed, I didn't want to go there in my post. Every time I hear the "turn the amp up and the mic down" suggestion, I cringe at the lack of knowledge there.
Killa, Barley and Markdc70 - A volume control isn't my preferred option and not something I would personally use. It was merely a suggestion to the problem presented. Which is what the OP asked for.
It will work though in the same way a guitar volume control does with an amp. Personally though I prefer to play (both on guitar and harp) with a smaller amp than use a bigger one turned down to get that break up. If though a small amp is still too loud, then the use of things like volume controls can be quite helpful and allow a person to play with a certain amount of break up at lower volumes.
There are many ways to skin a cat and most of the ideas here will work to greater or lesser degrees.
"If anything i would thing you would want to boost the signal in to just get a lil preamp break up. Right?"
Killa - No, not necessarily. It isn't as simple as looking at it purely from an 'electronics' standpoint. If a player's acoustic technique is right, then they can achieve a sound with some degree of break up/crunch acoustically. If that is then amplified and a volume control used then it can sound pretty damned good. As always though it's a question of degrees. How much break up does a person want? if they want metal type distortion then pedals are really the only way forward. if though they want a more classic blues type overdrive, then the technique/amp/mic with volume control is one of many possible solutions.
Joyo American Sound is a FANTASTIC pedal for harmonica. Absolutely wonderful!
The Tech 21 Blonde works great too, but something about the Joyo, which is a clone of the original Blonde, just works great with harp.
I've tried several other PA rigs for clean to high gain sounds and the AS is my go to. I even like the built in speaker emulation.
I like it so much that I sold a Princeton Reverb Reissue as the AS nailed the tone and could get louder with more bass. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
Well, without getting in a pissing match with Kingley, there is an element here that has not been mentioned. The mic element! If you get a good cup on the mic, you overdrive the element. CM's are built like miniature speakers. If you push a speaker hard, it will distort. When you get a tight seal on that mic, (good cup), you are pushing the element hard, the signal coming from the element is distorted. This sends a large and distorted signal to the first preamp stage. That signal shape will be unaltered all the way thru the amp and come out the speaker as crunch. (Distortion) This phenomenon could be considered a blend of technique and electronics. Both electronics and technique are at play here. There are a myriad of factors that effect your final tone. See Smiley Face here...BN
Depends on the day. Actually, what I usually do, is set the Joyo up as a cleaner blackface sound and then use the HB as a distortion pedal like a guitar player.
I play mostly rock and Americana, and the contract in sound is useful. I usually use the Joyo as my amp...if I were plugging into an amp, I could use the Joyo, but would prefer the Break.
The HarpBreak would be perfect for the OP, but I realize it isn't as cost effective.
The Joyo is more flexible and gives you more control. It also sounds like an amp and works great by itself. The HB has its own unique sound, and IME, needs a buffer behind it or it can sometimes clip in a not so good way. ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
Thanks guys. Lots to think about here and I´m very grateful for all the pointers. And no, I don´t own a mic w/ volume control. Regrettably, it´s way out of my league at the present time. So are also the LW pedals, but a HA is on my wish list. (I think Kingley convinced me of that in an earlier thread.)
Also, I will not (and cannot!) buy another amp right now. I´m sure the Vox has many strong points, but I tried one when I bought my Roland Mobile and found the Roland slightly more attractive. But that was a music store situation and I was primarily interested in a warm clean sound – my general preference. I want my Tweed-Tone´s sound as a starting point, so to say; the Roland´s overdrive is rather “electric” in comparison.
Technique is always a factor, certainly, and we know it for a fact that the really great players can sound marvelous right out of an alarm-clock, yes sir (why they own all those amps and pedals is beyond me), but I was heading for a shortcut here, I´m ashamed to say. Just in need of a slight, somewhat fuzzy, shade on my sound, preferably “warm” fuzz.
The Joyo pedals (they´re called Harley-Benton over here but I guess they´re the same thing?) are indeed inexpensive and it could be one of those that I should look at. Thank you Harmonica Lewinsky and Harpninja for that. My curiosity is up. (The downside is that there appears to be zero Swedish music stores holding them, so I´ll have to buy un-tested from the net.) As for mics, I use three. A vintage Beyerdynamic, a Green Bullet and an Audix Fireball. The Audix yields the best result from this amp, no doubt.
Below is a link to a sample of what it sounds like. Just a snippet, a solo from a work in progress – not mine, I was just a hired hand. This is studio conditions and I could play as loud or as quiet as I wanted, and here I was up to something like 8 in volume; I also boosted the bass a bit with my EQ. This is a sound I can live with, although it´s too harsh, and not enough bottom – and that was my trouble in the OP – but as I said, at a lower volume and for a bluesier sound it comes out a fair bit too clean. (The song is “One more heartache”, Marvin Gaye originally, covered by Paul Butterfield. It´s not a particularly bluesy tune so here I can find that somewhat trumpet-like sound acceptable.)
"As for mics, I use three. A vintage Beyerdynamic, a Green Bullet and an Audix Fireball. The Audix yields the best result from this amp, no doubt."
I don't know them very well but I believe the Audix and Beyer would be best for cleaner sounds and are not what I'd call 'hot'. The Green Bullet, if it's a modern one is also not ideal. Ask Greg Heumann. His Heumann element in your Green Bullet might help 'the cause' quite a bit.
Nice tone - and playing on that heartache clip. ---------- http://noamsmusic.tumblr.com
Last Edited by bonedog569 on Jan 07, 2016 3:43 PM
Definitions of warmth, breakup, crunch, distortion, brown sound, honk, dirt, etc. seem sort of variable, iffy, broad, and ambiguous.
If you bleed a little neighboring note into your draw to get a nasty blues harp sound, what do you call that? Even if you do it acoustically, you can still get a certain sound that conveys a bluesy feeling.
If you cup a clean mic through a clean PA you can get more of it. If you cup a dirty mic through a clean PA or a clean mic through a dirty amp, you can get more. If you cup a dirty mic through a dirty amp you get more. Sometimes it can sound almost clean, but warm, then you lean into it and leak a little from the next note, or hit a chord, and you get a lot more of the sound. Is that breakup?
Then there is the case that when you play through certain rigs you always get fuzzy sounding distortion.
People have various different tastes about how they want harp to sound. I wish we had clear shared definitions for these terms.
I think that it comes down to harmonics, usually even order harmonics, and how much you hear all the time and how much when you go for that sound.
I hear these labels casually used all the time, but I do not think that people always understand them in the same way. ----------
I feel that crunch, breakup, dirt, fuzz, kazoo tone are all the same. They are the sonic result of signal distortion that is created by the electronic equipment at use. Sometimes this is the result of the preamp receiving more input then it is designed for. Some times it is the power amplifier that is overdriven. It a may be the result of a wimpy speaker that can not handle what it is given. Also a mic element that is driven past it's intended design limits. Or, all of the above. Distortion is an accepted electronic term and is my prefered term. These other terms are slang. Warmth is a term for tone that is rich in bass and mids, with present but reserved high frequency content. Brown Sound is Warmth in combination with Sag. Sag is the inability of an amplifiers power supply to provide enough energy to support a strong note, usually bass or a power cord. Sag causes a note to be strong for a moment then taper in volume only to return to full strength as the power supply recovers. This happens in a second or two.
@Barry - That 'horn tone' clip is Martin's - the thread starter. I'd be happy to claim it though. It's a great sound. I'm not quite as horny, er, well maybe, - but that's not what I sound like anyway. ---------- http://noamsmusic.tumblr.com
Kazoo tone, to me, implies a constant fuzziness in the output.
Breakup, to me, implies an initial cleaner warm tone that then develops increased distortion, usually due to increased signal from more volume on a note or from playing 2 or more notes.
I agree that the names I mentioned above are all best described as forms of distortion, which means in a general way they are the same. But different amp/mic combinations give different results. Some distortion can sound unpleasant and some distortion can sound great. Then there is the issue concerning to what extent the output is distorted vs. clean. And the time factor: Is the output constantly heavily distorted, or does the degree of distortion vary as part of the performance dynamic?
I think in terms of ranges or degrees of distortion, not either/or determinations. I think in terms of pleasing or unpleasant distortion types.
I think that using a scale, such as 1-10 or 1-5 in terms of the degree of distortion would communicate more clearly. Perhaps kazoo tone is an 8 or 9 on a ten scale.
EDIT: I cut the stuff about even order and odd order harmonics because it was based on a conversation with a physics professor amp guru I had over 5 years ago. I may have recalled it correctly, or maybe not. So I cut it. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 09, 2016 7:45 PM
I have a thought. Just my 2 cents. One of my practice amps is a Fender Sidekick 30 with a Pyle Driver 12" speaker in it. Should be a POS but is NOT. Gets good and gritty at any volume up to capacity. There is only so much a solid state POS will do. Having said that, you need a volume and a master volume control so you can balance clean and dirty along with overall volume. A mic VC is a real plus. If you have a really simple circuit try a pedal in front to allow for a variety of input options. If this sounds like I'm a bit primitive about tech issues it's because I am. But after years of messing around I have found there are a few things you can take to the bank and pull out some great tone… For what little it's worth here among some really serious harp tech pros.
Last Edited by Georgia Blues on Jan 10, 2016 2:33 PM
Quick fix is get a distortion pedal, long term work on your cupping like barley said, cupping is key. Once you Get a good cup you will get break up at lower volumes with a wider range of amps too.
