New but determined
47 posts
Dec 24, 2015
1:13 PM
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I'm hearing challenged on the high notes and bought two Manji low harps in C and D before I knew much about anything. I can't get the one hole in either to bend but haven't really messed with the reeds but boy I love the sound I get especially from the D.
I don't expect them to be of much use in playing with others but love the low sound and have been thinking about a low F instead of a standard F. I'm pretty challenged with the high end on my standard D harp and will never buy a standard F harp because it's even higher (I really play the higher notes hard because I can barely hear them- I figured this out one time when I left my hearing aides on and it really hurt it was so loud, but if I try to play with hearing aides I get terrible feedback and can't play that way.
So if I decide to get a low F harp, I have considered a Manji or Thunderbird but the the Thunderbird is seriously more expensive but I really like my Crossovers which is why I might consider it. Any feedback?
Last Edited by New but determined on Dec 24, 2015 1:14 PM
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SuperBee
3123 posts
Dec 24, 2015
1:47 PM
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The highest note on the Low F tuning is the equivalent of blow 7 on the standard F.
Bending the low draw notes on these harps is a skill which for many people requires some effort to acquire. I have met people who can just do it and find no special problem, but others are like me and have to put in some work.
The manufacturing tolerances play a bigger part in the playability of the low tunings, so I think it's worth getting a well made product. I haven't tried the low tuned Manji. I have a LoF in both Seydel 1847 and Thunderbird. I have also used a Seydel Session.
Of these, I'd say the Thunderbird and the 1847 are both quite high level, well-playable harps. I like the Thunderbird perhaps a tiny bit more, but there's really not much in it and it would be a big call to say one is inherently 'better', although the Seydel may have greater reed life-expectancy.
Low-tuned harps have some special issues and one of these is a susceptibility to reed misalignment in the low reeds. This is more likely to happen if they get a sharp knock, such as when slapped to clear saliva from a reed for instance.
The Suzuki Manji would not have this problem, because the spot-welded reeds will stay put.
If the Manji was the cheaper option and I needed a low tuned harp, this is probably one instance I'd consider the Suzuki
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Raven
59 posts
Dec 24, 2015
3:15 PM
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Thunderbirds are great low tuned harps, but IMO, overpriced. Suzuki utilizes the same construction of the Joe Filisko design beveled cover to give extra clearance to the draw reeds on the bottom end, eliminating reed rattle. The SP20 lows were very good, but Hohner killed them to start hawking the Thunderbirds. I keep an assortment of low harps that include SP20, Thunderbird and Manjis. The only ones I've had trouble with were the Seydels...gapping issues. Recently I purchased a Session Steel in LDb and it played great for a couple of months, then, all of a sudden the 8 blow reed went out on me which really surprised me for a SS reed. Unfortunately, most manufacturers produce a limited number of low keys, most will usually do the LF. Seydel stands alone in some of the keys, but my recent experience with them makes me hesitant to invest in more SS harps. I'd stay with Suzuki unless you like dropping $140 on a Thunderbird.
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STME58
1483 posts
Dec 24, 2015
3:19 PM
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I have a Seydel 1847 Nobel in low F and it is one of my favorite harps. I agree with Superbee that low bends take a bit of practice but I find the 6 draw bend to be much easier on the low F than on higher harps. I also find it easier to overblow the low harps, though this may be because my low harps on the pricey and hopefully better manufactured side. I also have a Manji in Low C and a Session Steel in Low D. I like the low range and will probably eventually fill out my kit with the complete low octave.
Don't give up on the high end too quickly. I have also enjoyed my High G Special 20. You don't need all these tools in your tool box but it can be nice to have just the right harp and know how to use it for what the occasion calls for.
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New but determined
48 posts
Dec 24, 2015
4:40 PM
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I love bending draw 6 on all of my harmonica and it's especially sweet sounding in the Manji Low D and Low C, std. A and Std D but the Manji std C is the most difficult harmonica I have to make that draw 6 into a slow sweet bend, it seems to get part way and then kind of jumps lower. Both Sp20's C and G do everything sweet, I keep liking those more and more but the Crossovers seem the most effortless at everything and since I taped over the end vents, I think they sound a little nicer, I think my ears pick up on the wind rasp out of the end hole on those but not the Manji's.i will say that my six or so yearbooks Sp20 G that never got played until recently is as sweet sounding and to play as anything I have, but alas it's also the only G harp I have and maybe I just really like the sound of a G harp- it could be that.
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ME.HarpDoc
68 posts
Dec 24, 2015
5:19 PM
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I've got a low F in a Suzuki Olive which I like but not enough experience with it yet to compare. I've got a Promaster Hammond in Bb I love. The two are similar but I like the feel of the Hammond better
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jbone
2111 posts
Dec 24, 2015
7:53 PM
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I keep a Manji in low F in my case always. Great 3rd position and even some 2nd as well. Used it on a new song on the last CD and it worked above my expectations!
I admit I don't know all the ins and outs, overblows, double hiccup whopperstops and all that but I know enough to make a harp do good and add to a song. The low F is a big asset to me. I also use a low D on some things. Not to mention a baritone C chromatic and a G chromatic, which both get some play.
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Killa_Hertz
44 posts
Dec 24, 2015
8:10 PM
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I may be wrong, but couldn't you just take a G harp and tune it down to a Low F? If so you could buy a crossover and make your own thunderbird.
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STME58
1484 posts
Dec 24, 2015
9:42 PM
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Just recorded a couple of Christmas carols on a Seydel 1847 Nobel low F and Posted them here
Last Edited by STME58 on Dec 24, 2015 9:42 PM
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Fishlips
43 posts
Dec 24, 2015
10:26 PM
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I have both a few low key Thunderbirds and Manjis. I prefer the Thunderbirds, which have a feel very much like Crossovers. The Manjis have required some adjustment to the gapping, which feels too open to me OOTB. They also have a much deeper bottom reed plate on the low end than the Filisko design on the Thunderbird, which feels a little excessive to me. Still, the Manjis sound and play well after being adjusted, and it's sometimes hard to pay double the price for the Thunderbird unless its in a key that I will be using a lot.
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mlefree
481 posts
Dec 25, 2015
10:47 AM
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Good concept, Killa. In general it's much better to remove material from the end of those heavy reeds. For example, tuning a low E up to a low F. But then you might as well just go for a low F to begin with. No money saved buying a low E, eh?
It's safe to say that it's much healthier on any reed to tune it higher than lower. Removing material at the root can be fraught with a host of different problems. But if you are careful, you can remove some of those pesky diagonal file marks by stroking along the reed's length with fine sand paper (e.g., sanding wand). This can actually strengthen the reed by removing weak points due to those file marks at the same time as lowering the reed's pitch. Just try to hold the wand perfectly flat with respect to the reed as you stroke it.
Next time I need a low F I might even try it. But right now I have a fine old low F SP20 as well as a T-Bird (which, BTW, offers no advantage over the old SP20 in my experience).
Michelle
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Last Edited by mlefree on Dec 25, 2015 10:47 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
652 posts
Dec 25, 2015
11:32 AM
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A little thread-jacking, but following Michelle..,
I've had a difficult time finding the right sanding wand, but a Q-tip with either polishing compound or (automotive type) valve lapping compound on it does a pretty good job of polishing out, or smoothing out, those file marks. The wood shafted Q-tips, cut to about 1" long, will chuck into a $10 Harbor Freight rotary tool.
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2chops
462 posts
Dec 25, 2015
11:55 AM
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I had an extra Lee Oskar in G that had a busted reed. Had enough G harps already and really wanted a LF. So I got some LF plates from Rockin Ron. Works like a dream. I use it for 2nd & 3rd pos. No problem bending on the lower end.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
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New but determined
49 posts
Dec 25, 2015
12:27 PM
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This is interesting 2 chops, did you have to tap the threads on the bottom plate or were they already threaded.
I have in the Manji harps both Low and Low C but don't really play the Low C and thought about buying Low F plates from RockinRon and swapping like you did on your Lee Oscar.
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2chops
464 posts
Dec 25, 2015
1:17 PM
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New But... No tapping needed. The plates came with new screws. I just put the plates on and tightened them down. Easy as pie.
Edited for spelling.
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I'm workin on it. I'm workin on it.
Last Edited by 2chops on Dec 25, 2015 3:44 PM
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STME58
1485 posts
Dec 25, 2015
2:47 PM
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I agree with Michelle that thinning the root of the reed to lower the pitch could cause failures if not done well. I have used BluTack on the free end, as I learned from others here on this forum, to lower the pitch of a reed. It works well and stays put. On brass reads you can add a drop of solder and tune by filing as normal. It is easier to control the filing process to tune the reed than it is to re-size the dot of Blu Tack. On stainless reeds, conventional solder wont work, so I use the Blu Tack.
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SuperBee
3127 posts
Dec 25, 2015
3:25 PM
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Tuning down from a G is the old fashioned way to do it. I saw Paul Oscher claim he gave hohner the idea to make a factory model.
I've seen the claim it's better to tune up than down, but as Michelle pointed out, it makes no sense when we're talking low F. And I've also seen claims that its better to tune down than up as long as it's done properly and results will be more stable.
I found some sanding wands in the pharmacy that work quite well for tuning brass reeds. They're built on a plastic core which is flexibly rigid and easy to work with...and easy to trim off the worn out section with sidecutter. The grit is suitable for brass. Steel reeds present some different challenges but nothing insurmountable. I do think a rotary tool is probably handy for steel but it's not necessary for touch ups. Tuning a steel harp a whole step on a whole harp might get fairly tedious without one though
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harpwrench
1039 posts
Dec 25, 2015
3:48 PM
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I've tuned down a bunch of G's to low F, no come-backs yet. Works great if done properly!
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bigd
608 posts
Dec 25, 2015
7:26 PM
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I have a Golden Melody LF (2) from Joe Spiers: Mellifluous perfection!
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mlefree
483 posts
Dec 26, 2015
8:46 AM
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As far as sanding wands, 400 grit works fine for me. I get mine from Micromark.
400 grit sanding wand belts
If you reckon 400 grit isn't fine enough, you can make your own sanding wands. The inimitable Smokey Joe Leone -- the McGyver of the harmonica world -- has long made his.
He glues a stack of popsicle sticks together (just applying the glue to the ends, not the whole lengths). When set he coats the ends of the stack with a thin layer of glue and dips them in carborundum or silicon carbide powder, which are available in a range of grit sizes. Amazon carries both.
Silicon Carbide powder
The stack, when treated with the abrasive powder, can be split into whatever widths you like. Since they're just glued together on the ends you can slide a blade between the sticks and slice through the glued ends.
Michelle
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Last Edited by mlefree on Dec 26, 2015 8:49 AM
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barbequebob
3092 posts
Dec 26, 2015
9:10 AM
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Right now, for OOTB harps that are low pitched, in no particular order, the MB Thunderbird, Suzuki Manji and the Seydel 1847 is clearly at the top of the food chain, hands down. If you're new to playing lower pitched harps, someone new to them will have a tendency to play much harder to bend the notes on them and that's THE WRONG THING TO DO and what you need to do is take some time woodshedding with them for at least 1-2 months to get yourself familarized with them and using more breath force to force a bend to happen on ANY harmonica in ANY key is absolutely flat out bad playing technique. A custom version is till gonna play better but I don't recommend a newbie player getting a custom harp right away because they haven't yet gotten their playing technique in order.
For a lot of jump blues stuff where I'm playing with a decidedly more sax like approach, keys like Low E-flats and Low F's come in handy because the stock higher pitched versions tend to have too much of a screechiness factor for such an appoach.
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Boston, MA
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mlefree
484 posts
Dec 28, 2015
9:55 AM
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One thing about low-pitched harps.
Much as I love them, they just don't "cut" well in an acoustic setting. Regular F harps are screechy, no doubt. But, they can be easily heard unamplified.
In my experience, low-pitched harps should probably played amplified to be heard above other instruments.
Michelle
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SuperBee
3134 posts
Dec 28, 2015
1:36 PM
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Do you think 'Airtightness' or lack thereof, is more significant in Lo tuned harps with respect to their playability?
I have daylight through the back of my Lo Eb and I simply run out of air trying to get the bend on the 1 chamber, which is where the light is shining. The reeds respond beautifully though if not trying the bend. I mean, they're not at all slow, no hissing. I have assumed it's just me, do you think I'd see much improvement from working to get this plate to match up better with the comb? Comb is flat, issue is the reed plate. I've worked the gaps and reed shapes, consistent with what I normally do. Harp works great from chamber 3 up, and chamber 2 is even pretty good for me now although that has a (much thinner) sliver of light too.
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hvyj
2910 posts
Dec 28, 2015
2:14 PM
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I carry a Low F GM made for me by Joe Spiers. Great instrument. Thunderbirds are very nice OOB tenor lharps. But IMHO, the sweetest Low F harp OOB is the Suzuki Firebreath. Rich tone, very responsive and relatively easy to play--don't need to collapse a lung to make it work.
I
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Gnarly
1572 posts
Dec 28, 2015
2:45 PM
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The F# in my kit is a G SP20 I tuned down. I like it, it bends and overbends well.
FWIW, I am doing inventory at Suzuki (it's taking weeks, I am only there three days a week and the holidays are taking days away) and noticed that the Manji is going to be available in some new lower keys, all the way down to Low G.
I have STME's Low C Manji (come get it Steve), I had to replace the plates as he had broken both reeds in hole one. I guess that's easy to do!
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SuperBee
3141 posts
Dec 28, 2015
3:42 PM
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Hole 1 does seem to be susceptible in the Lo harps. This have been the reed most often at issue in those sent to me, sometimes just alignment but also sometimes broken
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mlefree
487 posts
Dec 29, 2015
6:34 AM
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SuperBee, I agrees that airtightness is necessary for bending those pesky low reeds on a low -pitched harp, but it is not sufficient.
I often do extra modification work on those low-pitch reeds. They're so long that even a small space between them and their reed plate slot can cause significant leakage. The ends of the reed slots often need additional attention as well.
But first, you must be physically able to create a large enough resonant chamber to allow those low notes to sound. Each player will have their own "basement" tone, the lowest pitch to which they can bend. It's a matter of the player's physical attributes, their understanding of the mechanics of bending, and their level of training and practice. One's ability to open their oral cavities and airways to create a large enough resonant chamber is key but they are born with their physical stature.
On a personal note, I'm convinced that the low pitch of my own voice is at least partially a consequence of years of holding a "yawn" posture in my throat while playing harmonicas. Right now I have laryngitis so at least I sound like Howard Levy when I speak. ;^)
That notwithstanding, my own basement seems to be hole one on a low D harp. I can bend that down sufficiently, but nothing I do will let me bend hole one on a low C. I've had to just learn to live with that.
I've cited references to "Helmoltz Resonance" enough times here that I won't bore you with it again.
So there's my take.
Michelle
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Last Edited by mlefree on Dec 29, 2015 6:40 AM
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groyster1
2832 posts
Dec 29, 2015
7:25 AM
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I have a low F which works well playing Gminor in 3rd position......I agree F major harp is too screechy...my least favorite key
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hvyj
2911 posts
Dec 29, 2015
8:23 AM
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Low F sounds pretty good for playing in A minor as well (5th position). Also handy to have for tunes like "My Girl" that modulate from C to D where the timbre of a regular F and a regular G (played in 2d position) is too great of a contrast to sound good.
Low F# is infinitely preferable to a regular F which puts you in dog whistle territory.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 29, 2015 8:28 AM
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Slimharp
410 posts
Dec 31, 2015
11:51 AM
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Tip O' the Day. For Low keys - Seydel Blues Session Steel. Not a big Seydel fan however these Session Steels in low keys are great, about $60.00 from Rockin Rons. At least as good as a T-Bird if not better as far as air tightness and response, at half the price. I play Hohner 99.5% of the time, but you cant beat these low harps.
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ME.HarpDoc
73 posts
Dec 31, 2015
2:26 PM
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I'm new to low harps (lower than G) and I recently acquired a low F Suzuki Olive. I find that both draw and blow notes through the 1,2 and 3 holes, whether light or heavy breath, produces a vibration I can feel through the cover plates that i don't feel with higher holes or harps. I don't think this is what's been described as "rattle" in other posts but I wonder if it should be considered normal.
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1847
3071 posts
Jan 01, 2016
7:47 AM
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slimharp has it right, the session steel in low F is the way to go
do yourself a favor and order one with the 1847 cover plates.
gma7 will also take good care of you.
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Gnarly
1581 posts
Jan 01, 2016
8:52 AM
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I bought Low Low F reedplates from Ron, that's a mighty harmonica--but I don't use it, it's in my big box of harps for someday.
Just dug all my Lee Oskars out in case I needed a reed for a big repair order I am doing, thankfully only had to steal a reed plate from a High G.
Seydel makes good harmonicas, and their Configurator service merits them much good will, but I really like the Suzuki harps, not just because I am employed by their US distributor.
I think the low tuned Manjis are a bargain!
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1847
3073 posts
Jan 01, 2016
9:47 AM
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i friend of mine has the manji low F he likes it alot
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Piro39
84 posts
Jan 01, 2016
9:56 AM
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I think that Big River low tuned harps were a bargin, with a little reed work and after market combs from Andrew or Blue Moon made great harps. Thanks Hohner for discontinuing your low tuned Special 20's and Big Rivers and pricing your Thunderbirds out of reach of most players. I love my low B flat dorian tuned (made from a low e flat) Big River with Blue Moon wooden comb. It's like a tenor sax.
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1847
3074 posts
Jan 01, 2016
10:05 AM
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hey wait a minute... i have a low F manji around here "somewhere"
it has bends juke cover plates.
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hvyj
2914 posts
Jan 01, 2016
1:13 PM
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@Gnarly: Yes indeed, IMHO, the higher end Suzukis are , in general, the best OOB harmonicas I've ever tried.
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Joe_L
2651 posts
Jan 01, 2016
6:16 PM
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It is in your best interest to practice with the higher pitched harps. They are not challenging to bend. If you want to unlock the sounds of Rice Miller, you'll need to be able to play the higher pitched harps. Additionally, a lot of guitarists like to play in Bb and C. The standard harps are quite handy on those tunes as well. Finally, it is sometimes in your best interest to be able to play any OOTB harp. Often, those are the only ones available.
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Last Edited by Joe_L on Jan 01, 2016 6:19 PM
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Gnarly
1585 posts
Jan 01, 2016
11:02 PM
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Piro39 wrote: Thanks Hohner for discontinuing your low tuned Special 20's and Big Rivers and pricing your Thunderbirds out of reach of most players.
yeah, that was a bonehead move, I like SP20s a lot, bought the last of Ron's Low F's when they discontinued them.
What were they thinking????
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SuperBee
3167 posts
Jan 02, 2016
2:27 AM
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I guess they were thinking no one was gonna buy a thunderbird if they could buy a special 20 at half the price
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New but determined
58 posts
Jan 02, 2016
6:42 PM
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I found out today what a fattening reed can sound like. I swapped a Mangi Low bottom cover plate onto a Mangi A to see if it sounded different and it kind of did but not worth bothering with. So since I had them apart, I put a standard Manji bottom cover plate on a Manji Low D and yup, sounded like something's wrong with the engine LOL, now I know what rattle sounds like. I can't bend anything g on my Manji Low C in the first three holes and only the third hole a little on the Manji Low D but wow I love the Low D's sound with melodies in the third position and chords are dreamy.
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Piro39
87 posts
Jan 02, 2016
9:55 PM
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Gnarly I would love to see Promasters in the low keys. Whisper this in Manji's ear, they will really give Hohner a run for their money.
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Blowhead9
19 posts
Jan 03, 2016
8:05 AM
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Another low harp option: Steven Baker Special in C. It's also just a good harp in general and not very expensive.
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Gnarly
1587 posts
Jan 03, 2016
2:49 PM
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Promaster covers fit the Manji, prepare for some rattle on the low keys.
No plans to make a conical cover plate for the Promaster, as far as I know . . .
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SuperBee
3183 posts
Jan 03, 2016
2:56 PM
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Is the reverse true? Manji covers fit promaster?
And can i buy manji covers somewhere?
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Gnarly
1589 posts
Jan 03, 2016
6:05 PM
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@Superbee, the Manji comb and reed plates have an extra cover plate hole for the cover plates with a centered hole.
But the Manji cover plates only have the one hole, near the front.
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SuperBee
3187 posts
Jan 03, 2016
7:44 PM
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ah yes of course. thank you
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