So I bought a chromatic, and I can't figure the thing out. Sure, I can play the major scale and such, and don't foresee any issues with figuring out and practicing other scales, but other than learning My Funny Valentine I just can't... get it. Not like a diatonic.
Are there any resources for leaning a chromatic like Gussow's vids for blues harp? Any particularly good (and recognizable and enjoyable) songs I should learn? I feel chromatics are more... esoteric than normal harps. And I haven't really come across anything other than Toots Thielman's stuff. He is a good harmonica player, but I really hate that style. It is so... bleh.
I never mentioned how useful Gussow's vids were. I only watched maybe 10-20 of them, but they were inredibly helpful when I was learning years ago.
Have you ever heard of George Harmonica Smith, Rod Piazza, William Clarke, Paul delay and Dennis Gruenling?
Obviously there's a lot you can do on chromatic but my interest is only in blues 3rd position and some 1st position à la” George Smith and a teeny weeny bit o' jazzy blues and the way I learned in the 80's no books, no internet was learned myself how to play octaves sat down with the vinyl and copied it and that was the way for me just listen, copy, swearing, listen copy, swearing, listen copy, swearing, and so on and it comes to you.
http://www.patmissin.com/articles/misc1.html
And also right here on the forum you have Barbeque Bob and Paul Oscher both heavyweight Chromatic players in the blues style! @3.15 mark Bob let's rip!
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
Last Edited by marine1896 on Dec 19, 2015 12:48 PM
David Barrett makes blues Chromatic very clear and straight forward. Look up chromatic studies 1-4 at www.bluesharmonica.com It will cost you $16.95 for one month, but it's well worth it.
Last Edited by LSB on Dec 18, 2015 10:45 AM
I've worked through all 4 studies and they will get you started with the basic blues chromatic techniques and a good chunk of the 3rd pos blues chrom vocabulary.
he he also has a terrific George Smith artist study based on Hot Rolls that will make your jaw sore from the 5-hole splits workout!
thanks for the vids marine1896!
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Dec 18, 2015 10:58 AM
You need some music theory to really gain an understanding of the chromatic harmonica. Like all chromatic instruments, scales are the key. I suggest a basic theory book to get started on reading notation, and a book of scales for the flute, which has a similar range to the 12-hole chromatic. Practice every day, now!
I like the chrom, but I am not primarily a blues player. And personally, The third position stuff where you never change chords drives me nuts. Perhaps the chrome is not for you. Some folks think it makes you sound cheesy. Using the button to raise the note a half step is a lot like a hammer on on the guitar, so it suits my playing style--but it's easy to make mistakes when you are improvising, and hard to make sound like a blues harp. Bill Barrett can do it, and the others posted in this thread. I sound more like those jazz guys you don't like . . .
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 18, 2015 7:21 PM
A dumb question: I think of a chromatic like a piano, with all the notes there with no bending. When you talk about a Chromatic in 3rd position, is that limiting you to the key of D?
Philosofy, yes the same way you are limited to the key of D when playing on a C diatonic in 3rd pos.
If you want to play the 3rd pos blues chromatic in other keys you have to buy harps in other keys. You can also hold the button in to go up a 1/2 step!
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
Last Edited by slaphappy on Dec 19, 2015 12:20 AM
It's bad thinking to see the chromatic like a piano. It's more like holes 4-7 on a diatonic, what most folks call solo tuning, across the entire range of the harmonica. So that's one octave of white keys, repeated for three (or four) octaves. What the button does (usually) is raise all note one semitone (a half step, like one fret). The pattern doesn't change, it's still solo tuning, with seven sharps. Visually, the piano is five sharps (or flats, the black keys), so to conceptualize the chromatic (and I don't recommend this), you would have to think of E# and B# as black notes too. When I try to "see" the chrom, I usually think positions, like short harp. This works for several keys, but not all--and the button keys (a couple of them, notably Ab) are transposed versions of those positions. Ultimately, it's best to learn where the notes are and think of the instrument that way. The problem is, you can't see what you are doing. Much worse than short harp, since it is almost always tuned to a chord, so adjacent tones are in tune with each other. Not if you are playing in odd positions, of course, but true of 12th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th. Playing a chromatic exclusively in 3rd position reduces it to a novelty instrument. Oh hell, maybe that's all these things are anyway, they make great stocking stuffers, Merry Christmas!
"Playing a chromatic exclusively in 3rd position reduces it to a novelty instrument. Oh hell, maybe that's all these things are anyway, they make great stocking stuffers, Merry Christmas!"
I think taking the covers of a chromatic and riveting them to your car bumper is a novelty!
Adapting something in another way can also be thought of as creative.
Wish I could afford to give away stocking fillers to folks starting around £100+!
Jeeeeezzzzz sanity clause.
But, there is Paul Delay who did 2nd position chrom and for those interested I know that there is guys like Toots, Larry Adler to check out but one of the more interesting mainstream chromatic guys I have got into is Robert Bonfiglio, not so much his music but his approach and technique and genius, he is a chrom monster and there's stuff you could get from a guy like that obviously if your wanting to innovate or whatever but as some great guy once said " I don't have headaches Over myself" maybe if I'd have known about someone like Robert Bonfiglio pre-net, late 80's It might be a different story for me now but hey music is fun and it still is to me and that's what counts... even if it is in only 3rd or 1st position!lol
Only thing missing from Larry Adler version is BIG FAT octaves!!!;-) ----------
"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
Gnarly's description that it's like holes 4-7 on a diatonic is spot on here. AS chromatic is essentially a pair of reed plates tuned 1/2 step apart, and in the case of a key of C chromatic, as an example, one set of plates (if it's done in what's called straight tuning) is in C and the other (on top) is in C# (if it's what's called cross tuned, a bit of each is on each plate so that's why when looking thru the mouthpiece, one slide opening is gonna be higher than the other).
Most blues players tend play chromatic in 3rd position, but others like George Harmonica Smith, have also played in in 1st position, and the approach is essentially turning 1st position so that it's more like the way it is in 3rd position with the note layout, but that DOES require you to learn where ALL the notes are and to use the slide button, and here's where a having the knowledge of where every single note is on the instrument, plus a basic knowledge of some music theory really helps out a lot.
The example of Mark Hummel in Humble Bug has it's roots in a George Harmonica Smith instrumental called Boogie 'N' With George, and both of them are being played in 1st position and you HAVE to use the slide to get that right.
You will also need to know that chromatics do not take well to being played really hard, ESPECIALLY when trying to bend notes or it will totally choke up and blank out on you in a heartbeat and the mnost you can bend a note is 1/2 step, but under ZERO circumstances can you try to force the note flat the way that most self taught players tend to do and that's increase the amount of breath force to make the bend happen and what you need to do is concentrate more on making EXTREMELY SUBLTE adjustments to both your embochure as well as the inside shape of your mouth to do the bend. Most bends people are able to do is 1/4 step, but 1/2 step bends can be done, and the easiest chromatics to do it on is a Hering because of the raised maouthpieces on them.
The Marine Band Soloist/School Band model diatonics when they originally came out were a learning tool to step up to a chromatic by the note layout being what's called solo tuned without the slide and so the note layout pattern is essentially the same and these were discontinued in 1975 and about 4-5 years later, they were replaced by the Hohner 364S (which, having both of them and in an A/B test, the 364S is a vastly inferior instrument).
There are some chromatics, usually thru a special order, known as Irish tuning, where when you press the slide in, the note is 1/2 step lower, and there many other types of tunings like what's called diminished tuning, and all of those you can find on Pat Missin's website.
Here's a link to George Harmonica Smith's enite Boogie 'N' With George LP, which originally came out in 1983, just shortly after his death and the title tune and Chicago City, he's using a 64 Chromonica (16 hole chormatic) in 1st position, played in the key of C.
---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Dec 19, 2015 8:47 AM
I usually use 1st, 3rd, and 4th with chromatic. The octaves are regular so you don't have to change how much you cover between blow and draw octaves, and tongue lifts and slaps take advantage of the fat chords. 4th is really good on minor soul blues. ----------
In my opinion, focusing on the similarities between the chromatic and diatonic harmonicas is going down the garden path. The chromatic harmonica is a chromatic instrument, with it you can run chromatic scales up an down and up again, you can play in any key, you can modulate to any other key, and you can play music notation exactly as it's written.
Thinking in terms of positions as they relate to the diatonic is not going to take you very far. Learning all your scales and arpeggios and practicing those on a daily basis is the key to unlocking the capability of the chromatic, in exactly the same way it is for the saxophone or the violin etc.
To be fluent in different keys, being able to play what you want in different keys, you just won't get there thinking "diatonically." It's a whole other horn, the chromatic harmonica is.
Last Edited by Dr.Hoy on Dec 19, 2015 8:42 PM
It depends on what music you want to make, with what specific sound. Certainly if you want fluency in many or all keys the concept of positions on chromatic is counterproductive. You should learn to read music and study the scales associated with each key, if that is your goal.
The chromatic harmonica is a tool that can be used in many different ways and using it modally as a diatonic instrument with the option of accessing sharps and flats as desired is a viable option. Many blues and roots music players do not seek to play the instrument fully chromatically. Look at the above videos. I am satisfied with using the chromatic in my own fashion for my own purposes, and feel no obligation to study musical forms that do not interest me in order to prove I can play it in all keys. As it stands I can use keyed chromatics to make good music in the forms I enjoy and improvise freely in those forms without adhering to years of study following a traditional approach to music education studying chromatic harmonica.
If your goal is to play it fully chromatically that is fine. There are chords that will be missing and in some keys phrases will be awkward. It is a difficult instrument to fully master, and I respect those who can play well in many keys.
For my musical purposes, keyed chromatics and positions get the job done. ----------
I'm no expert (Winslow is) but for my money, positional thinking can be an aid when you are playing by feel. We are mostly acquainted with how first and second position feel--as well as third LOL Include the slide action and there are half your keys. You certainly need to know where the notes are and how they fit into the key you are attempting to play in. But as Doug has steadfastly maintained, keyed chroms and positional playing can take you a long way. I didn't start playing chrom until the 21st century, and I think I waited too long. Price was a factor, as was need--you can do a lot with diatonic, but its limitations convinced me that the chrom was for me. As I said earlier, it might not be for you. And I am glad (this is directed at the OP) that you took the plunge (there is a joke here), give it a shot, but realize that the chrom's limitations might convince you to try another route. I like alternate tuned diatonics a lot, maybe that will do it for you.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 20, 2015 8:07 AM
I only posted the stuff that I posted cos reading the OP indicated to me that he was interested in blues and being that we are posting here on blues harmonica forum...and his comment on Toots...I was thinking... maybe a little ahead of myself admittedly... that he was in fact wanting to go down the blues road with his interest in chromatic harmonica.
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"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
Last Edited by marine1896 on Dec 20, 2015 9:08 AM
That sounds right, this is a blues site. I like blues on chrom but as I mentioned, my blow 4 is a Bb, that really makes second position blues a breeze. I bet I need to post a video--maybe after the holidays.
@Gnarly; I wasn't hinting at you to post a vid or anything mate your posts obviously speak for themselves but if your just wanting to post for the hell of it well, it's a free country as they say...or bit of the web, you know what I mean I'm sure ;-) ----------
"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
Last Edited by marine1896 on Dec 20, 2015 10:15 AM
Yeah- that's it. I want to have to use the slide. I feel like if I don't, it is just that "novelty instrument". I can already play blues and first position on my diatonic, and I much prefer the natural tone of the diatonic over the chromatic. (I am squarely in the camp of thinking chroms typically sound cheesy- sorry Gnarly. I am sure you are good though, and playing the chrom well is impressive, it just isn't for me.)
I do want to learn how to play blues on the chromatic as well, because it does have a unique sound and I want to be able to do anything I would want to on the one harp. I just don't want to stop there, though, I want to expand past blues and get some jazz and other stuff as well. I am basically feeling limited on my diatonic because I can only really play blues on it, and I can't jam out on other styles when I am with my friends.
What the chromatic offers- in my mind- is the flexibility of having all the notes you could need at your fingertip. That gives you the ability to play in multiple scales. "One harp to rule them all", if you will, so that when you pick it up you aren't limited to one or two keys or a specific style, but you can play anything you are skilled enough to play.
Sure, you can overblow and stuff on a diatonic, but that is just a pain and isn't worth it, I think, at least for me.
I know I found a bunch of resources for diatonics harps when I first started, but the interwebs seemed a lot more sparse when it came to chromatics.
I find that popular sharp keys (easy on guitar) are a pain in the ass on a C chrom--another reason to use keyed chromatics. But although I have that option, I haven't used them for months, going on years. I like training my ear using the tuning I have settled on, Orchestra tuning with the bebop option. So blow chord is G Bb C E and draw is A B D F. G is pretty good tho, and B isn't too bad. The sharp keys in between--D, A, and E--are not intuitive for me. I do keep trying tho . . . Flat keys are much easier!
F# major and B major are the two tough keys for me, but playing blues in B is fairly easy, C# not so much. Like all things it require a lot of practice. I take inspiration to keep improving from the many amazing classical players.
It's the bebop tuning that makes B easier--Bb only requires one button push, for the Eb, and B only requires the release of the button, for the E natural. I think I must be cheating tho . . .
@Bugsy Check out my youtube page. I did a couple videos with a half valved chrom. They were both in 3rd. I'll do one soon in first position. I was to close to my lap top and it recorded to loud and bright, but I think how I play is what you were describing.
Hal Leonard's Complete Harmonica Method / Chromatic Harmonica by Bobby Joe Holman. Very useful. As I recall, it has tab for ALL types of scales and ALL modes in ALL 12 keys.
Unlike his diatonic instructional materials, unfortunately, Barrett's book on chromatic isn't particularly good. But, I have not seen his on line stuff.
FWIW, I don't find it helpful to think in terms of "positions" on chrom.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 23, 2015 9:05 AM
@Winslow: I have and they are excellent. Thanks, Winslow!!!
@dougharps: MODES are diatonic. Thinking in terms of modes, IMHO, helps unlock the fuller potential of what can be done playing diatonic harps. While one can and should play modes on the chromatic, modes are not conceptually chromatic. Modal playing is a diatonic concept.
Every scale has modes - in every key. On diatonic, third position will automatically give you the Dorian mode, for example. But to play something otehr than Dorian in third, you have to add some bends and maybe overblows - it's work. Likewise, to play Dorian in something other than third position, again it's work.
All the same things are true on chromatic harmonica. A chromatic in C will give you D Dorian with the slide out - same as third position - and holding the slide in will give you Eb Dorian. But try to play D major or Eb major, and now you're using the slider - differently for each of these keys. Likewise, you could play F Dorian or Bb Dorian, and again you'd be working the slide to make it happen.
So, while modes are diatonic, they can really make you learn the chromatic harmonica depending on how many keys you play them in.
Is the position concept useful for chromatic? It is if you play chromatics tuned to keys other than C. Instead of memorizing 144 possibilities - 12 keys of chromatic times 12 keys of music - you can boil it down to only 12 sets of relationships. But yes, if you only ever play a C chromatic then just talk about playing in Bb instead of 11th position, or Ab instead of, um, lemme see - oh yeah, 9th position. =========== Winslow
@hvyj The chromatic harmonica is a tool that can be used in many different ways and using it modally as a diatonic instrument with the OPTION OF ACCESSING SHARPS AND FLATS AS DESIRED is a viable option. Many blues and roots music players do not seek to play the instrument fully chromatically. I am satisfied with using the chromatic in my own fashion for my own purposes, and feel no obligation to study musical forms that do not interest me in order to prove I can play it in all keys. As it stands I can use keyed chromatics to make good music in the forms I enjoy and improvise freely in those forms without adhering to years of study following a traditional approach to music education studying chromatic harmonica.
P.S. I DO use the button, quite a bit...
Aeolian Mode
I will have to upload some other songs not previously posted. Sorry for the repetition. This is an old recording and I am continuing to learn both diatonic, chromatic, and singing. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 24, 2015 7:58 AM
Tab for Dorian mode in 5th position on diatonic: 1B 2D* 2D/3B 3D** 3D 4D* 4D 5B
It is not uncommon for diatonic players learn to use chromatic for playing in minor keys. Personally, I am not comfortable playing chrom. Although I can play blues in D minor and A minor on a C chrom, from my perspective, that's sorta the wheelchair ramp for playing a chrom.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 24, 2015 9:11 AM
I am enjoying navigating the "wheelchair ramp" in my own way and I find that making music I enjoy (and others enjoy) is preferable to foregoing the use of the instrument because I haven't met an arbitrary standard for the "proper" use of the instrument.
I would encourage you to explore using chromatic harmonica as part of your music in whatever way inspires you musically. Don't give up on the instrument because you think that your level of use doesn't qualify as appropriately knowledgeable use of the instrument.
Life is short... enjoy making music!
Edited after recognizing that my first draft was far too long a post... ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 24, 2015 9:43 PM
The 10 hole diatonic we all use for blues is pretty chromatic in the first octave-- 1B 1D* 1D 2B 2D** 2D* 2D/3B 3D*** 3D** 3D* 3D 4B 4D* 4D 5B 5D On a C, that's C, C#, D, (NO Eb), F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, B, C, C#, D, (NO Eb), F. But it's hard to drop an Ab in casually--try playing the intro to Take the A Train and you will see what I mean.
And please don't make me bring up the Ode to Joy Challenge.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 25, 2015 6:55 AM
