About this time last year I let my band fall apart and I have only played a couple public jams and a few private sessions since. Late mid year I was invited to a monthly garage jam; 2 guitars, bass, drums. I've been taking various small amps to this, and they seemed to be ok, but I heard a recording earlier this week and to me the harp was...I never know the right words for this...'compromised' maybe...it wasn't the sound I wanted anyway and I thought about my 410 sitting unused... I'd thought the 410 would be overkill for the garage so hadn't considered taking it but this week decided it was time. what a pleasure it was! I'd forgotten how much I appreciate this amp. The beauty of a 410 for me is the dynamic possibilities. There's a fullness to the sound even at low volume which is satisfying, and when the time is right to play with more intensity, the amp opens up, steps forward without turning into a buzz-saw, still maintains a big rich full sound which is very satisfying. I enjoyed the jam yesterday so much...it was worth the weight. I have plenty small amps, and I enjoy them but the 8" speakers just don't quite cut it for me outside the 'bedroom'.
Gotta agree with you there. I've got a super reverb with 4X10" speakers and I love it. Nice to be able to shake the floor and rattle the windows without being on the threshold of feedback (at a reasonably loud volume, I can actually place the mic on top of the amp without it feeding back). The richness of tone especially with low harps just isn't there with my smaller (5w) amp. ---------- Lucky Lester
+one for big boy amps! One of the reasons (among others) that the little guys may not sound as awesome on the gig as they do in your living room is that there are so many competing/conflicting frequencies generated by everything else going on during the performance that are not present in your living room.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 13, 2015 1:22 PM
I have to agree, although I like the tone of my little amp best, I prefer to never have to worry about going through the night not being heard and having to blow my harps apart!
What I like about playing through my big 4x10 amp is that with that much volume I can play "lighter" and with greater precision, letting the amp do the heavy lifting for me. It's a loud, electric harmonica sound that no small amp could ever hope to duplicate.
It's about time! I Love BIG AMPS! 40W+ with big caps and several speakers. Strong clean speakers that will punch the harp out to the back of the room. No Kazoo tone here. No papery, buzzy breakup. I want clean and loud when needed and some grunt when it's time to lead, real bass!
Played a gig last night. Used my Stereo Harvard into 2 two ten cabs spread about 20 ft apart. Stereo delay driveing the amps two 35W channels. Got scolded twice for being too loud, Heh Heh Heh! Hey, it was the end of the night and I had received several free drinks. (;>)...BN
Supe, it does bother me at times that the big amps set around. There is a couple here that should go. I believe yours is a Fender 4x10 Deville, is that correct? I have played a few of those and found them to be very good on the clean channel.
OK folks, what big amps are you using that work well for harp. Is the amp stock or modded, if modded, how so?
Hi BN, Yep mine is a Deville...it's a 1997 HotRod... I only use the clean channel. This amp is modded. Maybe the main change is the preamp voltage which is down around 170 volts. I was looking for a bassman RI, and I actually passed up a brand new one at $1400 thinking I'd be able to do better and then never saw any price that low again...but there were heaps of devilles around at under $1000. Probably not built as well as the bassman, but I try to treat it nice. Increased the power rating on the plate resistors of v3, which are a common failing of these units. I just sold my hotrod deluxe (40w, single 12") which probably would have made an excellent unit as well and a bit less weight.
if i reply with a long winded post it will disapear.
i use a bassman most of the time. it depends on who i am playing with, how loud do i expect them to play. what is the venue. will the amp be mic'd up? how big is the stage.
my philosophy is, bring the right tool for the job.
Simple for me these days because my big rig (one of the first Concerts, Jan 1960) is just a stunning thing. It has ridiculous curves, like Raquel Welch. Upgrades helped a lot, a few caps and the speakers were just wore out. I got plenty of guidance from Mark -5F6A. Speakers are 2 Webers and 2 Warehouse. I do use a LW octave pedal for feedback control but almost never for effect. I still can't get past 5 but that would just about knock down a wall. It gets a really nice sound at low volume and, of course, plenty more as needed.
I use a small amp, mic'd or lineout to a PA to get the volume. I found that the small amp sounded lovely as long as there was nothing much else going on. As soon as there was, it was still perfectly audible, but sounded weedy and waspish in the mix. All that effort to make crunch via equipment and technique was lost. I will be wary of choosing another small amp based on demos where it's played solo, because of this. Mostly the demos are solo.
Adam has talked about using a small amp through a personal PA, a similar setup.
I don't have a big amp. For those who have tried both setups, how to they compare? Does a big amp have other qualities that you can't get another way?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 15, 2015 2:51 AM
listening to some recordings of mine from sunday...the best of it ...i dont think i could get that sound through my other gear... its all on a single continuous 5 hour file at the moment...i'll see about making some edits so you can hear a few seconds when you play well, its good...if you play poorly its awful...everyone can hear you
I can never work out things from recordings. What's your opinion about what it's like the room when you use your big amp vs a small amp broadcast through a PA or other big amp?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Dec 15, 2015 5:35 AM
"...what is is like the room when you use your big amp vs a small amp broadcast through a PA or other big amp?" With a big amp I have to remember to get around the room to hear it correctly and/or ask someone you trust to listen for you. With the smaller rig in the pa I don't worry about that so much because the sound will be more uniform throughout the room. The drawback, for me, can be maintaining dynamics with a PA setup. Big amp allows full control.
Last Edited by Littoral on Dec 15, 2015 5:46 AM
A small amp that is mic'd can sound good, too, if the sound man is on the ball and you don't have to turn up the small amp too loud to hear yourself on stage, or for the band to hear you. If you put the small amp in the monitors you are asking for feedback issues. When you push a small amp too far to hear yourself on stage you lose that tone variation between a warm sound and breakup, and it all becomes constant fuzz (which I do not like, but maybe you do). I like a warm sound with mild distortion that breaks up when I play harder or lean into a chord. You are also always on the edge of feedback due to too much gain when you push a small amp.
With a big amp with a loud band you have the headroom to still use dynamics and hear yourself, though you may need help knowing how it sounds out front. It is easy to hear yourself on stage with a big amp. If it is too quiet a gig you have to really know your big amp to get the tone you want at low volume, but it is possible. I choose from my amps based on the venue and the volume level I expect from the band. Just my take on this... ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Dec 15, 2015 8:56 AM
one issue with a large amp is that it has a large sonic footprint. if the band is already loud, and the harp comes in blasting away, what usually happens is the band will turn up even louder. pretty soon things can quickly get out of hand.
with a small amp you have a smaller sonic foot print you can sometimes get the band to turn down, because they are not hearing you blast away, that is thru the front of house, and does not effect them.
there are trade off's no matter what amp you use. i will admit it is easier just to bring a big amp but if you are playing so loud the music suffers what is the point?
With a big or even a medium size amp you are more independent and in control of your sound. You don't always need to mic it or line out. This is especially important for playing at jams where it is helpful to be self contained which I always thought was the whole point of carrying your own amp anyway.
At the jam where I was in the house band and at another jam I like to attend the house PA has only 6 channels which are usually full. So when a harp player comes in with, say, a Memphis Mini, they can't mic it or line out. So what do they do? Crank up and create howling feedback in an effort to hear themselves and to be heard or play at a level where they don't feed back but no one can hear them and they can't hear themselves. So, what's the point of carrying that amp?
I've asked that question and have been told it's because that's how I get my tone. I think to myself, what tone? Is it the high pitched feedback or is it the sound no one can hear?
True story:, went to a memorial blues jam for a deceased local blues musician. A back line was provided with a boutique harp amp. A local harp player was running sound but the amps were not mic'd. A hard rocking local female guitarist/vocalist wanted me to play with her and there was a second guitar, a keyboard, a bass and drums. I tried to play but I couldn't hear myself, be heard or get any cut whatsoever no matter how high I turned up the volume knob on the harp amp. In between songs I went over to the harp player sound man and told him I think your amp has blown, I can't hear hardly anything. He said no, it's fine it's only ten watts. I said ten watts? Are you f_ing nuts? He said, no the amp is a great amp, it's just that the guitars are too loud. I concluded that this guy didn't need a bigger amp--he needs a psychiatrist.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 15, 2015 11:51 AM
For every situation I play in a 15 watt amp is more than big enough. I don't need a big amp, because I don't put myself in situations where I need that kind of volume these days. If a jam or band is too loud I simply don't play with them. Because as a musician I value my most prized asset. My hearing. I've got far too many musician friends who have severe tinnitus or are deaf in one ear, from putting themselves in those stupid kinds of high volume situations. I simply refuse to be one of those statistics.
On the odd occasion that I play a room or festival and the 15 watt struggles though, then I just mic it up.
@kingley: You use a Princeton Reverb Reissue which is a VERY robust 15 watts. The gig would have to be pretty loud before your amp was out gunned. But ear plugs are cheap. I like playing with hard rocking bands. That's not the only type of playing I do, but I like to be able to keep up when I do it.
Small amps just don't cut it on stage with a full band, you can't hear the dam thing! Sure, you can mic it but what good is that, you still can't hear it!. You don't see the pros screwing around with dinky amps, they use POWER! Big amp will fill the room with sound. Clean, edgy, or full blown crunch, whatever you want. The big amp will be easy to hear on stage which lets you play with more detail. Small amps are one trick poneys regardless of how good the trick is. Another thing about the big amp is that you end up in the PA in a nice soft fashion with no attention by the sound man. The stage mics hear your big amp and you get a nice spread across the stage/room. You have total control of your sound, when it's time for a lead, you bump the VC and go. When shadowing the guitar licks you are there.
I have small amps, very old small amps, several under 10W. The only place they go is acoustic jams and usually I run two in stereo. That does sound very nice.
When I get call out to fill in for someone, I usually take something with two or more speakers and a minimum of 30W of power.
As a life long construction worker that still goes to rock concerts and plays with bands, my ears are not perfect but they are still pretty good. I have a dip right around 3K in my hearing which is typical for my age group so the Doc says. Seems to be right where my wife's voice is......BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Dec 15, 2015 3:35 PM
Exactly, the power, that's what you get with the big heavy bastards. I think my amp weighs more than half of my weight, but it has the power to cut it on the stand, to be just that loud, so I can play the way I want and hear what I'm doing. There's just nothing like that a small amp could provide.
There's really useful info here about the pros and cons. I take the conclusion that it's about the appropriate tool for the job. In my circumstances I can hear a small amp perfectly well for monitoring purposes because the band isn't that loud. But I do need the reinforcement to get enough volume to get the dynamics, avoiding the fuzztone experience as discussed.
In another thread we are advised to not get hung up on particular tone. It does seem that there are fundamental things to get right: being heard all round the room, not wrestling with feedback, monitoring, having enough power to play with good dynamics. Sometimes I play through an amp sim pedal to PA, which really doesn't provide crunch like a little tube amp, but does address these other issues. Good for the soul.
It's all a matter of taste. I mean if you are gonna blown full no stop one dynamic like Adam Gussow; doesn't matter what size yer speakers are, it's gonna be atrocious. 410 or 1 6inch mouse, cover your ears. ----------
I always use a pedalboard into a QSC K10. Even on large festival stages in 10 piece bands it is loud enough. Sometimes, at blues shows if I try for a lot of distortion - not normally my goal - I can get feedback on house monitors.
Here is a HarpBreak with house PA and monitors. I intentionally played really gritty, which is not the norm.
Here is a clip from someone's iPhone. I was able to save it of Facebook, so it is even further compressed. It is the same mic plugged directly into a Blues Jr. The BJ was stock except for the speaker which was "an old AlNiCo". It isn't my amp.
I share as the BJ is 15w. The guitar player used a 15w PRRI with a case in front to displace some of the sound. The bass player had a huge cab and the drummer hit hard. I would say they were typical electric blues band loud - so a reasonable level of stage volume.
I bet that bad set up was 90% of what you guys get to do. The BJ on the floor aimed at my feet was plenty loud with no feedback. Master cranked and volume on 4.
Count me in as a big amp lover! Nothing like it. Love my Sonny Jr Avenger and as long as I can get to the gig with my car (and the gig seats more than 20 people), its coming with me.
Since most of my playing is in duo settings, I just don't need big amps. Last Saturday night I did a fly-in gig with just the HarpGear 2, miked up, and it had plenty of stage volume. Good dynamic range, too.
On the infrequent occasions that I play with bands, I usually use the louder of my two Premier Twin-8s and mic it up. That's plenty loud.
My Shure PE5H-C mic has a lower output than most mics, I've come to believe, which means that it doesn't drive big amps--like my '56 Bassman--quite hard enough to give me an optimal sound, especially on the high end.
Which leads me to two questions:
1) What's the cheapest way that I can assess the output signal from my mic? Is there a cheap circuit tester I can buy at Home Depot that will let me do that? I'd love to do that and post the results here so the guys who know mics can weigh in.
Output level at 1,000 hz is .94 mV. How does that compare with other mics?
2) If in fact that's a lower than optimal output, is there a line transformer or other signal booster that folks here would recommend?
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Dec 16, 2015 9:49 AM
Last Saturday I did a gig with a band I used to play with, who are pretty loud, and I just brought my Heumanized Kalamazoo Model one and my Ultimate 45 and I put the Kalamazoo on a table, turned it up to six and It was perfect. The guitar player, who happens to be Thomas Walker in the videos I posted above, is a fine harp player and we duked it out a few time with him playing harp through his guitar amp, and it all sounded great. The band and the audience loved it. ----------
Kudzu, .94mV seems really low to me. A Strat puts out approx. 3mV and I believe a good 99A86 will make over 1V. I checked my mic with a simple multi meter set to AC volts with no load. A scope would be better, then do the math to get RMS signal strength. Greg is the pro here, lets see what he says...BN
I just got a 1991 Peavey Classic 50 410 with a 115 extension cab thrown in for a stupid cheap price, and I'm loving the power and the big fat wall of sound. Speaker swaps will only make it better. Until now I've been using a BJ and assorted CM mics. Nice sound if I can hear it, but that is always the problem in the bandstand. Now I just look at it sitting in the corner… sort of an old flame. It's not me… it's YOU baby.
Last Edited by Georgia Blues on Dec 18, 2015 6:11 AM
Completely agree here. Gigged for several years with a 5 watt amp and was never 100% happy. These days I use a late 40s Challenger PA head into either a 4x8 or a vintage suitcase style 2x12. I think it is 35 watts. The difference is noticeable in many ways.
A couples weeks ago, I played whit my band in a bar, there was a PA, and two wireless mics, in the same chanel, for my 5w amp and the singer.
Sure, I put the second mic in front of my amp, and for the firs set it works, volume and tone, but when we finish the first set, the guy from the bar TURN OFF the mics (to save baterry?) whitout telling me. So, the second set no one can hear me. I didint notice that the mic was off because the amp was right behinde me.
On stage, you need volume. ---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
Edit so yesterday i was too lazy to bring my bassman, we used a blues jr. with the antifeed back unit. this was wth a very loud band. no trouble at all cutting thru. my buddy said when i soloed, i was louder than the guitars. there was not a keyboard, if there was, i would of been drowned out. i am continuely surprized how well a blues jr. can hold its own. not in all circumstances, and some times it needs help from the kinder box. but it should not be under estimated. ---------- if i type in the correct captcha why is my post lost in cyber-space
Yeah, I guess the thing I loved with the 410 was not just the cut...I mean that's important, but I have amps that would get across in that situation. Even my champ and my epi junior..I have taken both to the jam and they were quite audible...but the big amp had a prescence I really appreciated...just a whole bunch of dynamic tone that was easy to access...and fun to play with...because I realised I could get too loud and I needed to adjust the way I played to be a bit more sensitive. It was a pleasure...especially after playing in bands where I needed this amp cranked just to hear it...taught me to play heavy all the time which is something I've been avoiding this last year by just playing acoustic mostly, even jamming...and I think the big amp might help me break that habit of playing hard when ever I have hold of a mic... But you know...I've started playing with the soldering again so I'm messing with the bedroom amps...
Super, you stated my problem exactly. I can push through with a small amp and get "heard" but I have to work so damned hard it's not the fun int needs to be. Also I know the sound is compromised. So while I know it's not the answer to all questions, my current mindset is…. Go big or go home! Like all things, this too will mature and change but for the moment I have a love for BIG.
