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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Tuning a harp
Tuning a harp
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Fishlips
41 posts
Oct 25, 2015
9:04 PM
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I've been re-tuning some harps to JI. I'm using a Seiko SAT800 digital tuner and my ears, which are reasonably good, to check the octaves.
I've been finding that despite my attention to consistent volume and air pressure, reeds don't stay "fixed." I can return to a reed, or octave pair of reeds, moments later and find that they have jumped several cents, or are just beating wildly. I have also found on a few occasions that a pair of reeds may sound in tune together while the digital tuner denies what I am hearing.
Even so, I eventually arrive at results that, while not perfect, are better than the OOTB tuning, and periodically revisit the tuning to make adjustments as the reeds develop habits of their own.
Am I missing something here? I understand the impact of air pressure (volume) and temperature, and do a lot of plinking between adjustments. I have some experience with brass, woodwind, and string instruments, and they all seem better behaved in regard to tuning adjustments. Is there a reliable method of tuning harp reeds and being able to assume they will retain a pitch for more than a few moments?
Thanks for any and all advice that may ensue.
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arzajac
1698 posts
Oct 26, 2015
6:38 AM
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http://youtu.be/PKRKV1g6qbQ
I think your breath force is varying. But you can use dynamics to help you find the right pitches.
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Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 26, 2015 6:42 AM
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Tuckster
1489 posts
Oct 26, 2015
7:59 AM
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Andrew-I watched that video. The Harpmaster is ET,which means chords and octaves are never quite right. If you tuned the entire harp to say,19JI,would the chords/octaves fall into place?
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arzajac
1699 posts
Oct 26, 2015
8:20 AM
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Yes. A HM is et from the factory. That means it's tuned to et . If you tune it to 19limit, it's then 19limit which means chords sound nice.
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chromaticblues
1723 posts
Oct 26, 2015
9:11 AM
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@Fishlips
Buy some auto feeler gauges sizes .022", .003", .004" and .005".
You can use the thicker sizes to put under the reed while your tuning and then when you think your done flick the reed a couple times. Always flick it after removing any metal before you test it. Always flick it after you set the gap. Any time you make any adjustment to the reed flick it lightly a few times. This way the reed settles into it's new adjustment before you retest it.
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mlefree
453 posts
Oct 26, 2015
11:15 AM
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This is the classic problem with tuning and the reason for checking splits. I do my final testing with the harp completely assembled. You never know how or when a little tuning gremlin with sneak up and bite you. Any little change will affect tuning, breath not the least. I don't trust my tuning until I've played the intact harp a bit.
Not my favorite part of harmonica maintenance but one with huge importance that can be the "tail that wags the dog" in terms of how the instrument sounds in the end.
Michelle
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arzajac
1700 posts
Oct 27, 2015
12:34 PM
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I'm the gremlin.
I used some continuous quality improvement strategies and I identified the top things that take the most time and filmed myself doing them. I broke down the steps I was doing and saw that "re-doing" was a big problem. I implemented strategies to avoid working against myself.
Specific to tuning, measurement is a bigger challenge than adjusting. And that's no matter what equipment you use (I own two analog Strobe tuners) I spend more time making sure the measurement I am getting makes sense. Ambient noise, temperature, humidity all play a role. Tension (stress, wandering mind, screaming kids...) can completely screw up your breath control. It happens that I just walk away for a little while because I know I will not work effectively and probably need to "re-do" a lot. I go do something fun. But to put this in context, there are days I tune harps for four hours straight....
...not the same harp, obviously!
(On a side note, measuring as-you-go is easier when tuning to 7limit just because everything "gets along" with everything else - or it's supposed to. That means you can pick up on a stray reed being out of tune a little easier since you can rely on more than just the octaves to double-check. There's more redundancy. Sometimes beating is easier to hear when you play the thirds and fifths together.)
I approach adjusting the pitch cautiously. I would rather sneak up on the target pitch than overshoot. I consciously take smaller bites because I know in the end that will save me time.
I recommend learning to love tuning. I can't overstate how important tuning is. I hope that helps.
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Last Edited by arzajac on Oct 28, 2015 10:06 AM
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Fishlips
42 posts
Oct 27, 2015
7:51 PM
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Thanks, everyone, for the thoughts and advice. I have been using both the tuner and my fairly good ear. Andrew, I've been using your breath force information, though only on octaves to this point rather than thirds and fifths. I've found it helpful, but sometimes the results don't correspond with the information from the tuner. I tend to trust my ear more than the needle, and I know that there can be a few hertz per cent, so the beating should be a more precise measure, and it is the sound that counts.
I'm guess that the variables may include whether the reed/spring has settled, though I do a lot of reed plinking, as recommended above. Air pressure can be a variable, and I hold the note a few seconds before looking at the tuner. I played brass instruments for three decades and have a fairly good, though not perfect, sense of breath control. This could still be a factor, however. Another possibility is an inconsistency of the shape of my resonating chamber in my head-- perhaps I sometimes unconsciously pull a note down or arch my tongue and this creates an inconsistency.
I saw the use of a hair dryer in Andrew's video. Does the removal of moisture add to consistency, or does the potential temperature change created by the warm air have an effect on the pitch as one would expect with other wind instruments?
I assume that using tuning the thirds and fifths by ear results in a Just Intonation tuning, rather than ET or Compromise. Is that correct, or am I missing an element of theory?
I am even more convinced by the responses that tuning a harp is a worthwhile, but time consuming process and is subject, as Michelle points out, to gremlins and the need for regular rechecking and adjustment. It has seemed to me a few months into this journey that if I tune a harp, I then need to check and adjust it immediately. Then I play it for a few weeks and come back to it again and the next round of adjustment settles in a little better. I'm hoping to find a better and more consistent process. As a trumpet player, I played a note, looked at the strobe, and moved the tuning slide (of course, then I still had to compensate for almost every other note on the horn through ear, air, and embouchure). Perhaps I'm hoping for too simple of a "one and done" process on harp, or at least greater consistency than I'm now experiencing.
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arzajac
1701 posts
Oct 28, 2015
3:12 AM
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The tuner needle isn't reliable. Use it as a guide and when it gives you a nonsensical result, question it. In the video, whenever things didn't make sense, a blast of warm air helps to figure out what's really going on by eliminating condensation - a big source of error.
Beating is only helpful when two reeds are tuned closely together. If they are far apart, beating will come and go until you approach the desired pitch. So the tuner's job is to get you close to the pitch you want.
Yes, tuning the thirds and fifths in reference to the tonic is Just Intonation.
How often would you need to readjust the tuning? I dunno. A lot less frequently than a guitar for sure!
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