Again. Because I knew hanging with 3 really good guitar players using really good amps wasn't gonna go well if I just went PA. I did change the vocal mic to my sm57 bulletized and it helped but the result was like trying to drink weak coffee, see the bottom of the cup weak. I have plenty of technique to overcome it, TB, big octaves, precise quick notes. I was loud enough. I asked for a flat EQ and push the bass. Just not a satisfying experience. I had a similar thought when I saw Cotton over the PA back in the 80's. He was certainly awesome but I knew what was missing. I did have an excellent pedal rig with me but the offer to sit in was "Hey, you can just use a vocal mic, right?" Plug in between songs so no time for set-up.
Any suggestions?
Last Edited by Littoral on Oct 18, 2015 5:57 AM
When doing this I usually push the bass up to the 1-2 o'clock position, Treble about 10- 11 o'clock and middle around 12-1 o'clock. That's presuming the desk is the type where the controls at "flat" are 12 o'clock. Then I pump up the gain control to about 3 o'clock and put the slider volume to where I can before feedback.
Which is why it is good to have a DI box and a pedal (such as LW Harp Attack) with you. The cable from the normal stage mic goes into the di box. You play your normal mic, go into the pedal with your normal jack lead and then use a patch cable into the DI. Then YOU have control of your sound. Takes no time at all so no one can complain.
Kingley, that only works if the board is not digital. The digital boards offer NO feedback so the old trick we have been using for hears is becoming obsolete.
I carry my 2 lb. Digitech RP150 with Richard Hunter's sound patches for this very reason.
It has 50 Huntersounds amp and effect emulation settings as well as, importantly, its own master volume control. I usually select a Champ or 4X10 amp channel and set the unit's volume control mid-way at sound check. That way I have the freedom of final control over my own volume in the mix (sorta tricks the sound men who never seem to want to give me enough "juice").
I'll admit that the end-to-end sound quality doesn't ~quite~ match that of a real Champ or 4X10, but honestly I think it takes a dyed-in-the-wool harp geek to tell the difference. I know it astonishes other "normal" harmonica players. The tones I can get give me lots of latitude to pick amp settings that match any particular song or genre. And, my ailing back is very pleased by not having to haul even a real Champ around, let alone a 4X10. 2 lbs., folks, 2 lbs.! Half the size of a kid's lunchbox, in it's own padded carrying case.
Oh, did I tell you that the RP150 was a gift and that the Huntersounds patches for it cost $25? I don't know how to beat that!
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Oct 18, 2015 11:12 AM
I've played through PAs quite a bit over the years. IMHO, the trick is to pump the midrange a little, roll off the highs and leave the bass flat or slightly boosted, and add some reverb or delay. The midrange fattens the tone. Pumping the bass does not fatten the tone.. If possible I will use my own mic.
Now, If you want some dirt, turn up the gain or pad (or whatever it's called on that particular board) for heat, but be careful because a little goes a long way and you may have to turn the volume down a little to compensate so u don't feed back.
Early on, I had no amp or mic. At jams I was often the only harp guy. You learn to make the best of the situation. Later I got my first tube amp, a Princeton Tremolo from the early 60's. Great tone but underpowered for the usual guitar wizard dominated stage. I lived in Texas when SRV was king so every other guitar player was overpowered and there would always be at least 2 on stage. I quested for bigger amps that had good tone and were affordable for years. I arrived at a couple of conclusions. First, I can't lug a big amp, my back won't allow it, so that's out. Second, after some adventures with blown up harps and damaged vocal cords, I decided- rightly so- that loud stages were really not a good idea for my health or my wallet. Third, an opportunity came up some years ago to take on my wife as guitarist, and form a duo that can use a rhythm section or a lead guitarist sometimes, and keep the volume a bit lower. Which I took, and it's working well for us.
We play acoustically often and this has made me hone my straight up chops a lot. With both voice and harp I have learned my limits on forcing volume past a point. Not to mention, we see some guys like James Harman play through the p.a. here and there and make it sound good. Not tube amp and cm bullet good but tasty nonetheless. So there are examples out there.
My situation is sort of unique I know, but it works for me the best of any configuration I've been in for 20+ years. We use small tube amps when we electrify and I believe if needed I can have one miced to the p.a. for a special occasion like say an arena or big outdoor gig. Which are rare at this point!
So my lesson has been, make the acoustic to p.a. thing work, or go a bit smaller, with good little tube amps, and make it really shine! ---------- http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
I'm playing with a loud band. Even too loud to be heard with my Bassman maxed out. This past Weekend I went straight through the PA and got good volume but not the tone I want.
Tried using a Harp Attack pedal but started feeding back so went straight into the PA for the rest of the gig. Any suggestions on using the HA without feedback?
The guys in the band thought I sounded great through the PA....is it just us who long for that fat amped tone?
I don't like a lot of distortion/breakup for a base tone. I much prefer clean amp sounds with a bullet and am fine playing through the PA.
If the eq is decent, that mic should have sounded really good. In the end, is it better to hear yourself at volume so you aren't tearing through harps or not cutting through the band? ---------- Mike My Website My Harmonica Effects Blog
@ doctom You could try a 12ay7 or maybe even a 12au7 tube in the Harp Attack to lower the gain in the signal going to the PA. Also, watch your gain on the PA. Remember that you are already pretty hot going in from the pedal. ----------
Playing straight into the PA is not easy. There are to many things that you cant control: the sound guy (if you are lucky, most of the time you are yourown sound guy, and you cant make changes in the sounds during the show), an unknow piece of gear (the PA itself), the space, the monitors.
For me, the monitors are the biggest issue. I can get good tone whit my Harpbreak (my settings: lows halfway, lots of mids, highs halfway), but if you dont have good monitors, you cant hear yourself. The audience can hear you very loud, but on stage if you dont have a good monitor, you are better whit an amp beause if you dont hear yourself, you cant play. ---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
OP appreciates the input. It veered a bit because, of course, the better alternative is gear. How about this answer, which I had't ever given enough thought before. How is it we can say PA generically and assume they sound the same? We have mental issues about amp tweaks but a PA is a PA? In hindsight now I recall the monitors were old Peaveys. Oh, maybe that was part of the issue. In the future I will, at least, factor in the quality of the PA.
Last Edited by Littoral on Oct 19, 2015 7:21 PM
@ Doctum...there is probably gain in the preamp section of the PA to compensate for the low output of a guitar pickup. Use the PA's pad function on your channel. PA's are very non-standardized, so you may have absolutely no problem with a different PA. ---------- --Nathan Heck Lead Technician, Lone Wolf Blues Co. customerservice@lonewolfblues.com
Playing through the PA is an art, just like playing amplified. It takes a lot of practice - and because most of us don't have PA's set up at home, that means practicing live, and that in turn means we avoid it. It takes time!
You didn't say whether you picked up the mic or left it in a stand. With the former, the secret is to learn to play quietly. Because you have an Ultimate mic you can also turn the volume control DOWN, which is necessary unless the sound guy has already reduced the level from normal vocal mic level. The tone adjustments mentioned above will help.
If you're leaving the mic in the stand, then you will want to have the PA set up for vocals with the mic turned down at least 1/4 turn so you can get a HIGHER level when you play harp. (That assumes you're going to have your cup in front of the mic and use pure acoustic technique, NOT cupping the mic at all. )
In NEITHER case are you going to get the sound you get out of a tune amp set up for harp! PA's are clean and set for vocal clarity, even cleaner. If I knew I would never again be able to play through anything but the vocal mic, I'd use Lone Wolf Blues' FrontMan pedal, which has with low impedance XLR in and outs to run to the PA, and a high impedance/1/4" effects loop through which I could hook any pedals I might want to use for harp. Switch the entire loop in for harp, out for vocals.
The best guy I've ever seen sing and play through the same mic is Kenny Neal. He picks up the 58 to play harp through it. His secret is great acoustic tone AND outstanding dynamic control. Because of this setup he has to play really, really quietly.
I played through the PA last night and thought I'd try hvyj's advice on boosting the midrange over how I normally set the mic. Worked like a treat and sounded very good. Thanks for the tip man.
Most players thinks that "the tone" is in the lows, but the magic is in the mids knob of your amp or PA. ---------- Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
The more often that I have played straight to the PA, the better I sound in terms of tone. Whether you cup the mic or play to a mic on a stand, you will improve your tone. (in my experience and IMHO) ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Oct 31, 2015 1:08 PM
Greg's advice is spot on. Personally, I love cupping a vocal mic. It requires technique and practice, but...
Lots of great players in blues history play and played through the PA cupping a vocal mic and sound incredible. I think it's a skill worth having and working on. I sold all of my pedals except for a Fender reverb pedal. I never used them.
Take a look at the Big Walter videos in YouTube where he is playing with the Chicago Blues All-stars. Here's playing through a vocal mic. He's hardly working.
>>>>>"I did have an excellent pedal rig with me but the offer to sit in was 'Hey, you can just use a vocal mic, right?' Plug in between songs so no time for set-up. Any suggestions?"
================
My suggestion would be to just grin and bear it. It's just a sit-in situation; do your best and have fun.
At this sit-in, I played whatever vocal they had straight through the board. And I was ripped to the tits on pain meds (herniated disc) to boot! :-)
OP (me) agrees with "Grin and bear it". That's essentially how it went. 2 worn out Peavy monitors didn't help much but everybody said it sounded good. This post was because I want to address the same issues better -as opposed to grin and bearing it.
An efficient solution I've considered previously that addresses a lot of the above suggestions is to battery power my LW Octave to a DI so I can quickly connect to the vocal mic (XLR). That's 2 boxes, no power needed, harps and a mic, = 1 trip to the stage. EQ a little more mids (otherwise flat) and hold back on 1/2 of the volume on my pedal for the mic check. I control my own volume level with the pedal as a preamp, proper impedance is done, feedback control is great with the Octave and I can add some effect (mid-cut) if I want it. I think I can do this in 1 minute or less.
Last Edited by Littoral on Nov 02, 2015 9:42 AM
MN - would you mind if I take a section of what you played there, slow it down and write about it on the beginner's forum? I really like those hi-energy twiddles around the 4D that you do.
Over the past couple of months, I have been going to a number of local jam sessions. In the majority of cases, a harp amp/rig has been supplied. Initailly, I brought an amp, but finally I thought, I could learn something here, so now I am leaving my stuff at home and using what is provided. And it has taught me a lot. As a result I have played thru a lot of late model Fenders and new small harp centric amps, mostly thru shure bullets circa 2015. Yeah, WAAAY outside my comfort zone but it has forced me get a perfect cup and to dial in "my sound" PDQ. In some cases, the owners of the amps asked how I got tone.
Last week's jam featured a 1950's Premier amp w/ a 12" speaker and a 50's green bullet with the original cartridge. Very, very sweet indeed! And it played great as I warmed up, comped during the song and then, as I began my solo, snap, crackle, pop, gone. Yeah, pants down in front of everyone. I am afraid there was no time to cry, to get another amp, call Lone Wolf for some pedals,, etc. So I dropped the mic in my pocket and stepped up to the mic and played 36 bars of harp, both open and cupped, utilzing some of the tips from this post. And it was fine. Not big and fat from an amp, but it worked not unlike MN's video (nice work there MN!) So thanks MN and Greg.....great post
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Nov 03, 2015 4:14 AM
@Kingley: Happy to learn that worked out well for you.
I always carry my lo-z 545 Ultimate in my harp case. When I have to use the PA and play thru one of the vocal mics I usually ask if I can unplug the vocal mic and use my own mic, always adding "because it has a volume control" and I'm almost always given the OK . The VC is really helpful especially when I can't get to the board and it's much easier to get a more acceptable tone using my own mic.
TIP: If you have no choice but to play through a mic eq'd for vocals that's too hot, use a loose cup and hold the mic so the grill is UNDER the harp. Not a perfect solution but helps make a bad situation manageable.
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 03, 2015 10:30 AM
