I employ double and triple tonguing techniques on harp and execute these techniques the same way as I do on trumpet and trombone. I lip block when using these techniques. The tongue remains behind the teeth and (obviously) is moving and hitting the roof of the mouth. I don't see how one could tongue block and double/triple tongue at the same time.
@marine1896...."it's not as articulate." Yeah, it's pretty mushy, especially into a cupped mic. It's not the effect I personally look for, but it may be acceptable to some.
@FMWoodeye; I noticed between your first and second post 6 minutes elapsed so, you said in your first post and I quote "I don't see how one could tongue block and double/triple tongue at the same time" and 6 minutes later (after trying I presume) you wrote " Yeah, it's pretty mushy, especially into a cupped mic. It's not the effect I personally look for, but it may be acceptable to some." So in that 6 minutes you have learned a technique and dismissed it a technique that took me a long time to learn and definitely way much longer that 6 mins! As I began my harmonica journey in the 1980's with my records and Tony Glover's blues harp book and no internet it has been at times a joy and frustrating but anything anyone offered I gave it a very good try and did not dismiss it after six mins! I offer very little on here because I believe that offering advice on a forum like this should be backed up by your own playing and I think I will get around to uploading some stuff someplace rather than just bumping my gums anonymously but in the meantime and far more articulate than I could put it here is an explanation of this technique by a guy who knows a little bit about harmonica and yes it does take more than 6 minutes practice...
Hemi, nope, I didn't practice it during that six minutes. I did, however, read Marine's post and decided to further elucidate. A car can be steered with one's feet, but it doesn't yield the degree of control that I would be happy with. I assume you would be triple tonguing on a single note. So it would seem...to me...that it would be easier to learn to lip block that note to achieve a good result than to struggle with tongue blocking simultaneously with triple tonguing to achieve a compromised result. I guess I will add that I played brass for four decades before I ever picked up a harp, so I am pretty much locked in to that approach.
As I said in my first post not saying it is a better technique but it can be done to a certain degree. Switching between TB and LP is preferable to achieve a more clear and articulate method. But I guess if FMWoodeye says 'nope' then that's that! ----------
"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
I'm of the opinion that there isn't really a way to do it effectively when your tongue is on the harp. Try saying "TahDuhLa" without touching the tip of the tongue to the roof of the mouth. It just doesn't work.. comes out like mush and will never sound like Jr Wells! ;)
my 2 cents.
---------- 4' 4+ 3' 2~~~ -Mike Ziemba Harmonica is Life!
The comparable articulation is more like double and triple "clucking" with the side of the tongue. It is worth learning because it allows you to articulate without switching embouchure, but I have never been able to make it sound identical to lip blocked tonguing. There are several other articulations that are so much easier in LB (the "doi-di-di" triplet being one of the most common)that I found it well worth learning a few moves in LB.
Just so we're not getting hung up on semantics, on a trumpet (and/or harp) I can articulate triplet eighth notes at 210 beats per minute with no problem. Maybe someone can do it while tongue blocking, but it would me like french kissing and chewing gum at the same time, in my humble opinion. Try this experiment. Hold your tongue between your thumb and forefinger and say, "My father owns a ship yard." You can do it, but it doesn't quite come out the way you'd like. Winslow characterizes tongue-blocked triple tonguing as "clumsy."
Last Edited by FMWoodeye on Oct 17, 2015 9:16 PM
Triplet can be felt as such within the rhythm when you say "tu-ka-ta tu-ka-ta". (triple tonguing).
Kim is using a "tu-ka tu-ka" rhythm. (double tonguing) and I'm not even sure that he is TB'ing at that point. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Oct 19, 2015 5:33 PM
@Ice-the op states " Double and triple tonguing for tongue blockers"
Kim is double tongue blocking those notes for sure-no reason he could not triple -I think I can find an example.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Oct 19, 2015 5:44 PM
tm714 I have read many interviews of Kim stating he often switches embouchures. How can you be sure he is TBing?
Personally, although I can tongue articulate while tonguing blocking, any triple tongue is more of a tu ka ta and is much easier on the draw. Anything over 100 beats per minute sounds terrible.
It's been a looong time but I played tuba in school for 6 years. I don't claim to be an expert by any means but I have to disagree with Michael and also with mr. so & so.
First, brass and wood wind players, who likely invented the technique, all double- and triple-tongue to great effect and they ~always~ do it on the blow. That's the only way they can do it. I don't see why it would be any easier on the draw than the blow on the harmonica.
Second, what you are using there, mr. so & so, is called a glottal stop. I must say yours is superb but I don't believe you could approach anywhere near the speed of someone accomplished at triple-tonguing using glottal stops.
This video demonstrates this as well as my third point having to do with Michael's blanket statement about speed. It speaks for itself. I don't know how to calculate the speed of this horn player's staccato playing starting at 0:45 but it's got to be an order of magnitude faster than 100 bpm. Sounds not only good but pretty amazing to me.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Oct 21, 2015 5:59 AM
However, your beat was somewhere in the 100 beats per minute range. I can pucker tirplet at around 180 beats per minute. Can you get faster?
Michelle, I wrote this before your text, came home from a trip out and discovered it had not been sent.
I don't think you and I disagree much. TB triple tonguing and Mr. So and So's technique are very slow.
However, I don't see why you need to disagree with my statement that TB triple tonguing is easier on the draw. For me, it is. Easier is subjective.
Last Edited by Michael Rubin on Oct 21, 2015 6:56 AM
@Michael and Michelle, thanks for the kind words. My purpose was simply to demonstrate an alternative to tongue articulations (which is independent of embouchure, BTW). I believe that I can go much faster, at least as fast as I can with my tongue, but that is not something I've worked on. I'm not really a speed player either, so until I have further motivation to get there, it may be up to others to try. Perhaps if someone posted a short recording of a passage that uses the technique on harp and at speed, I'd add it to my practice and see how I can do. ----------
Robert Bonfiglio showed me how did tonguing in tongue blocking. I think it's bit of difficult technique compared to pucker. I think most wind players have way to double and triple note but they practice it as far as the technique for their given instrument. ----------
It's really kind of 2 different techniques. TB uses the glottal stop,as stated by Michelle. LP uses the tongue to make the triple. I don't think you can do it as fast TB as you can LP,but if you don't have to do it hyperfast,it may not matter.I've been trying to not get too hung up on which technique,and use which ever is best in a given situation. I'd love to hear JR's take on this.
@Tuckster, I just listened to Whammer Jammer twice through. What "fast triple" are you referring to? The pace is fast but I didn't hear tongued triplets. Well, maybe some triplets just before the vocalization in one of the versions I listened to. I also make the distinction, as in the OP, between just playing fast consecutive notes, triplets or not, and doing so with tonguing (or glottal) percussive effects.
Anybody else got a really good example on harp of this this effect being used? Provide a video or sound file, and time references. Thanks! ----------
Last Edited by mr_so&so on Oct 22, 2015 2:01 PM
Michael, I might have better made my point in the form of a question. I always learn from you when I get a chance to probe your mind and wanted to seize the opportunity.
Why is triple-tonguing easier on the draw for you?
Since triple-tonguing was developed by musicians that played blow-only instruments and the vast majority of them are still done on these instruments, maybe you have some insight that would explain your experience and why it differs from my own. That might help me improve my playing.
In fact, my experience is the opposite if anything. For me, the inward force of my breath tends to oppose my efforts to do the required motion. When playing TT on the draw my inward breath tends to hold my tongue to the roof of my mouth where doing it on the blow tend to sort of bounce it off, giving a "spring" effect. That, for me, actually assists my efforts, allowing me to do it faster.
Apparently, that resistive force of the inward breath against your tongue assists you in some way?
BTW, to be clear, I'm talking about LP which for me is the vastly preferred embouchure for triple-tonguing. I apologize for diverting the original topic but it makes more sense than starting a new one on essentially the same subject.
Thanks,
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
I thought I sent this message earlier, so excuse if it is a double post.
Michelle, my original post referred only to TB triple tonguing. I was under the impression that it could not be done. I saw this thread and tried it. To my surprise, it can be done. However, I found I could get around 20 bpm faster on the draw. My entire experiment with it took around 2 minutes, so don't be too concerned about my preference for draw notes. I will say I have been shedding on chord harp and playing all kinds of new rhythms, most of which are tougher on the draw.
Tuckster, yep, that's triple tonguing, I would bet. Nice and sharp and clear, too. I would be very surprised to learn the Magic Dick is tongue blocking at that point.
The triple tongueing in the video Michelle posted is going at about 660 per minute (tempo is ~220 x 3 per beat) or about 11 per second (660/60) =========== Winslow
Michael, thanks for clarifying. I was curious whether you have developed a technique that favors the draw on difficult articulations. They're harder for me in general than on the blow but I wondered whether that was my now ancient brass instrument experience creeping in somehow.
And thank you, too Winslow, for quantifying the rate of that horn player's triple tonguing. I remember years back when Alan "Blackie" Shackner earned mention in the Guinness Book Of World Records as the fastest harmonica player for playing at a rate of over 1,000 bpm in his renditions of "Hora Staccato" and "Flight Of The Bumble Bee" at different times. But, I couldn't find any solid references to that any more. And I thought sure I'd find at least a couple. Maybe someone is a better Googler than me. Or who knows but that you have some information about that somewhere in in your vast physical or cerebral archives, Winslow.
Michelle
---------- SilverWing Leather - Custom leather creations for musicians and other eccentrics.
Last Edited by mlefree on Oct 23, 2015 4:31 AM
