528hemi
457 posts
Sep 18, 2015
10:53 AM
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How important is the flat fifth in minor blues? If you just play the minor pentatonic scale ( no flat 5 ) compared to blues scale do you really give up alot?
I mean if it is available go ahead and use it but if it is not easily available in certain octaves does it really matter? For instance, do you really miss the flat 5 "D flat" 7 hole overdraw draw second position G?
528hemi
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JInx
1080 posts
Sep 20, 2015
12:51 PM
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Have a listen to BB King singing some minor blues. He's got some good ideas for a flat fifth
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RyanMortos
1515 posts
Sep 20, 2015
1:10 PM
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I would think if you're trying to quote/cover another player/melody and they play that note in that octave it's very important. Or if your improvising and in the moment you feel flat 5th is needed in that octave.
I've heard Jason R recommend not practicing that note when practicing scales.
But, uh, lots and lots of pro recordings/artists on there playing in 2nd not doing 7OD so probably a nice to have & work on but not going to wreck a solo without it, I would think.
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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hvyj
2776 posts
Sep 20, 2015
3:40 PM
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Well if you flatten the 5th of a minor chord you get a diminished chord. So, ithe flat 5th lays over the minor 3rd very nicely which makes it cool for playing minor key blues. But, it's not a note of resolution; it has a restless feel and is a good note to move from but not to move to. It also works that way if you are playing the major pentatonic scale. So, IMHO it 's a great note to have, but if you are missing it in certain octaves or registers of certain positions it's NBD because it's not a chord tone and it's not essential to moving through common chord progressions. Also it tends to be overused (abused?) by a lot of harmonica players.
In the high register in second position you have a minor pentatonic scale assuming you can handle the 10 hole full step blow bend, but you also have a complete major pentatonic scale and a complete mixolydian scale (mode), so there's plenty of alternatives you can use for playing in second position on the high register without the blues scale or a flat fifth. No need to be addicted to only working off of the blues scale. In some respects the flat 5th can be considered an optional note.
On the other hand, certain horn parts and heads/hooks will have the flat fifth, so if you are trying to replicate such a horn part or head/hook accurately you need it. One way to get it in a register that doesn't provide it on diatonic harp is to use a second harp a half step lower than the harp you are using for the tonic. Handling two harps is actually not particularly difficult, and may be necessary if the bandleader is insisting that a particular horn lick be replicated accurately on harp.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 20, 2015 3:55 PM
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528hemi
460 posts
Sep 20, 2015
4:48 PM
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Thanks for the great advise.
528hemi
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hvyj
2779 posts
Sep 20, 2015
5:51 PM
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Actually what I find more limiting than the lack of the flat 5th in certain registers of certain positions is the absence of the flat 6th in third position anywhere but on draw 3 half step bend which is IMHO very inhibiting when trying to use third position for playing minor key blues.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 20, 2015 5:52 PM
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GamblersHand
578 posts
Sep 21, 2015
9:51 AM
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Well it's vital for biker blues harp....
I find that I use this note less and less as I've got more competent on the harp. I mainly use it as an ascending line 4d' - 4d - 5d e.g. on a Boom Boom riff or 4d' - 4d - 5b on a rhumba
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Sep 22, 2015 12:02 AM
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528hemi
462 posts
Sep 21, 2015
5:46 PM
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hvyi,
For 3rd position minor blues are you referring to b flat for the 4 chord?
528hemi
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hvyj
2780 posts
Sep 21, 2015
9:14 PM
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Yep (assuming you are using a C harp). The flat 6th of the key is the flat 3d of he IV chord. An important note for playing natural minor (aeolian) blues or anything else that's in a natural minor key. Also for harmonic minor.
Last Edited by hvyj on Sep 22, 2015 9:12 AM
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Brendan Power
488 posts
Sep 22, 2015
11:20 PM
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The flat 5th of the home key is a very hip note to end a tune with :-)
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Sep 22, 2015 11:21 PM
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WinslowYerxa
955 posts
Sep 23, 2015
11:06 AM
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Here's another way of looking at the question.
Start with the 5-note minor pentatonic scale, such as this one in third position on a C-harp:
D F G A C
Now, wherever there are two scale steps that are two semitones apart:
F - G (3-4)
G - A (4-5)
C - D (7-8)
You ca insert a chromatic passing tone:
F - F# - G (minor 3 to major 3 passing tone to 4)
G - G# - A (4 to flat-5 passing tone to 5)
C - C# - D (minor 7 to major 7 passing ton to tonic)
Using al these chromatic passing tones as stepping stones can dress up your pentatonic lines and give you more flexbility. You hear players like Dennis Gruenling doing this all the time on chromatic, but its quite possible on diatonic as well, especially in the first four holes.
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!
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Moon Cat
534 posts
Sep 23, 2015
8:20 PM
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Yeah what HVYI said: The note for almost all of us is Habit. Thats the problem, it's a great , dark, obviously bluesy note. There is nothing wrong with it other than that most of us play it when we don't mean to or even when we don't want to. I try and not practice habit…I play the damn thing recklessly and too much at every gig I do even now and I haven't practiced with it in THREE YEARS!!! Wether it be vibrato, glissando's or note choices I don't practice things that have become habitual no matter how great they sound. I enjoy being somewhat in control of this instrument rather than it playing me by doing what guitar players sometimes call "following their fingers"…That IS a rut/stagnation/plateua to me…So to answer your question: you absolutely do not need this note to play on minor blues all you need is the minor 3rd and I totally recommend avoiding it (b5) because then when you do put it in it will be because you want it, understand it, hear it and LOVE IT! PS I love it in the second octave and have to work harder to get it and thank God!!! Meow meow to the meow meows!
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www.mooncat.org
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Sep 23, 2015 9:48 PM
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Grey Owl
465 posts
Sep 24, 2015
1:12 AM
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Mooncat said 'I try and not practice habit' and 'I enjoy being somewhat in control of this instrument rather than it playing me by doing what guitar players sometimes call "following their fingers"…That IS a rut/stagnation/plateua to me…'
I like that, well said and good advice for us to contemplate. Thanks.
Last Edited by Grey Owl on Sep 24, 2015 1:13 AM
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WinslowYerxa
958 posts
Sep 25, 2015
12:59 PM
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Here's an instrumental I recorded right after the SPAH convention. It's in A minor, played on a chromatic, and leans on the A minor pentatonic scale - A C D E G. But I also slip in the chromatic passing tones I described in an earlier post, including the flat 5.
Under the Marine Layer
(Later I'll post a full-length 4th position chromatic blues instrumental, but subscribers to bluesharmonica.com get a one-week exclusive before wider release).
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Winslow
Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Join us in 2016 for SPAH on the San Antonio River Walk!
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Sep 25, 2015 1:02 PM
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1847
2776 posts
Sep 27, 2015
9:36 AM
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You stay out all night till the break of day,
You stop up your ears to everything I say
Little by little, I'm losing you, I can see,
Bit by bit, your love is drifting away from me
What you doing, baby, you know it ain't right
I wonder what you doing that it takes all night
Little by little, I'm losing you, I can see
Bit by bit, your love is drifting away from me
You look so disgusted when I try to kiss you
I guess I don't thrill you like I used to do
Little by little, I'm losing you, I can see
Bit by bit, your love is drifting away from me
I tried to tail you last sitting in my car,
But I was scared that I would see what I was looking for
Little by little, I'm losing you, I can see
Bit by bit, your love is drifting away from me
here is a little biker blues that starts on the flat five
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