Tyler
12 posts
Sep 12, 2015
12:14 PM
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Got a new Manji in E today. It's a beautiful little instrument that's been on my list. Harp reviews are subjective to the player but here goes:
Out of the box the blow reeds were gapped very high and inconsistent. My first blow had no sound, as I gently breathed into hole one. I added force and it played fine. Draw reeds felt about right.
Disassembly revealed a very scored reedplate. Looked like someone filed all over the plates. While the blow plate was very flat, the draw plate was curved like a hockey stick. There are 8 reedplate screws and they are all needed to fix the curve.
Upon closing the gaps, the harp plays great. Compared to my Big River with Blues Harp covers in E, I could hear a brighter, clearer, sound and far more volume. I'm not sure how much perception to attribute to side vents vs closed sides. The upper register is very responsive and the low bends have better sound to me than some other harps.
While I am a fan of full length cover plates, I was pleasantly surprised by the comfort of the tiny Manji covers. I'm also moving away from recessed reedplates due to top harp models all using sandwich design, and the reedplates were nicely rounded and comfortable.
Lastly, the tuning is not great. I hear beating octaves.
In short, the Manji is not the best out of the box harp I have played by any means; but after adjustments, it is in the top 3 easily. The crooked plates, tuning, and scoring will make me hesitant to purchase another, unfortunately.
Last Edited by Tyler on Sep 12, 2015 12:17 PM
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Pistolcat
858 posts
Sep 12, 2015
12:44 PM
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Beating octaves and a hockey reed plate. That doesn't sound Good at all ;). I have stopped thinking about OOTB. To me the benchmark is "after 15 minutes of gapping". Gapping is so easily done and very individual so it's ok that it's not perfect from the factory, imho. Tuning on the other hand...
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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ted burke
361 posts
Sep 12, 2015
12:51 PM
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Suzuki sometimes makes claims for instruments that do not stand up in real life. I have three Manjis, two purchased and one given to me, and all of them are laborious to play.The tone is awful on all three, all three stick, articulation is muddy. It's not my execution. Similarly , the SUB 30 is an extreme disappointment. I realize that one many have the instruments modified to correct issues, but I don't see the point in buying instruments that cost over sixty dollars up to a hundred and then some only to have them worked on at addtional costs.
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Ted Burke
tburke4@san.rr.com
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Gary 62
24 posts
Sep 12, 2015
1:31 PM
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Yeah it's a strange thing but as a beginner you think you'll buy a harp and it'll be perfect right out of the box. Then you find out it's actually not in tune. Before i embarked on my embossing journey i did the little mods that Adam suggested and i had it set up well. I gapped it and tuned it with a guitar tuner. Well i tuned the draw reeds i never bothered with the blow as they seemed to be in tune.
Anyway i was watching Jason Ricci who seems a great guy and he plays the Manji and he seems to really like them but i remember him saying he couldn't or wouldn't want to play a harp just straight out of the box.
I suppose if all these mods were done at the factory then the price of the harps would skyrocket. That's probably why they don't do it.
The Hohner Rocket sounds as though it's a fun harp to play in all the reviews i've read.
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Pistolcat
859 posts
Sep 12, 2015
2:25 PM
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I have not been impressed with the rockets that I have tried so far. They weren't mine and gapped for someone else so it's not entirely fair to call them bad, but... Expensive sp20... Oh, in the tuning department. Gary, was the harp not in tune? Beating octaves? Non-perfect fifths? If it ain't broken and all that. Using a guitar tuner to tune reeds isnt very good either. Or, it's a tool but it'll only take you so far... You need to tune by ear for the last stretch or you'll end up worse than where you started.... Check out Andrew Zajack's site, arzajac here, for how to tune.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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Ian
79 posts
Sep 12, 2015
2:49 PM
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@tyler.... Man, id send that back. I have a few manjis, and other than some very basic gapping they have all been great.
Bent reed plates etc surely can't be acceptable.
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Tyler
15 posts
Sep 12, 2015
4:28 PM
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Been a while since I played an OOTB, as I haven't needed a new harp for a while (I try to replace reeds and extend the life). Perhaps I'm used to my own harps, I'm not used to new.
Ted - your feedback is interesting. My last Suzuki was a promaster that plays great. I figured the Suzuki flagship could only be better. And once tweaked, it sounds incredible.
Gary - sorry to hear that your early experience was out of tune. Harps are sort of a roulette that way. Your comments on price vs mass production is exactly it. I see in other threads that your not afraid to get under his hood though, which is great. Took me ages to start improving my harps.
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Moon Cat
533 posts
Sep 12, 2015
8:01 PM
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I am surprised at that the gapping issue and encourage you to try more (if only a friends at first): Every Manji I have received has been closer gapped than any other brand…The octave beating issue IS a common complaint BUT almost always falls into tune (not further out)/corrects itself after it's "warmed up" or been played for a gig or two… I agree with Ted on the Sub 30 however anyone who has worked on/been involved with any of these types of harps will tell you this is an immensely difficult and problematic instrument type to build/repair and overall Suzuki is to be commended for even building it. I still know no better OTB harmonica on the market.-Jason Ricci
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www.mooncat.org
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Sep 12, 2015 8:02 PM
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ted burke
363 posts
Sep 12, 2015
9:41 PM
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@Tyler. I think Pro Masters are a quality instrument, especially the valved versions.
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Ted Burke
tburke4@san.rr.com
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SuperBee
2796 posts
Sep 13, 2015
2:32 AM
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My promasters aren't very good. In ways which I find important. But they are old. Almost old enough to know better.
My one off manji was ok, just not special. Not special enough. For me to want another. Maybe I just didn't appreciate its special qualities. I think that's quite possible. I remember thinking that I could probably learn to like it, but I didn't want to shell out the bikkies.
I hear beating quite often. Sometimes I just can't figure it out. One time I spent a couple of evenings tuning 2 harps, 2 reeds in 2 harps. The tuner said they were fine but they beat. The rest of the harp did not beat. Eventually I put tape on the mouthpiece and punched holes for those chambers. The beating disappeared. So...it was me. My embouchure. I've noticed some harps...the 1-4 split can sometimes play smooth for me with a quite wide difference according to the tuner. I had a seydel harp (key A) yesterday that was 15 cents between the 1 draw and 4 draw, and yet the split played smoothly.
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Kingley
3924 posts
Sep 13, 2015
2:39 AM
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I have two Manji's. They are decent enough harps. I can see why some people like them. They just aren't my cup of tea though. I'm prefer Hohners.
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Jim Rumbaugh
1168 posts
Sep 13, 2015
6:34 AM
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My C Manji is my best harp.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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mlefree
401 posts
Sep 13, 2015
8:12 AM
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Gary62, the fact that your blow reeds seemed in tune but your draw reeds out of tune tells a story. Playing draw reeds in tune can be much more challenging than blow ones. I'd look to my technique if that was happening to me. YMMV.
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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Gnarly
1464 posts
Sep 13, 2015
8:13 AM
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OK, first thing--I am the Suzuki repair technician, and so have a certain perspective.
All these harps, made in Japan, come with a one year warranty. If you find that the harmonica has a problem, call us at 800-854-1594 and ask for Daron (x4411) or me (x4410 or 4414, but I am only there Tues-Thurs). You can return the harp to us for service if you have any concerns.
At SPAH this year we did an "out of the box" video session with Mooncat, Koei Tanaka and the remarkable Filip Jers. I got to shoot it! Has not yet been processed for public consumption, but I can tell you that, although they were all able to play well with OOTB harps, they also remarked when certain things (extended technique) were difficult to play.
I have a saying, "You can always improve a harmonica." Like most sayings, this is not always the case. But with a one year warranty, you should be able to get what you want.
I am not suggesting that I do custom work for free. But, for example, when Ted got the SUB30 and didn't care for it, he could have dropped it in the mail and had it improved. He might still be able to take advantage of that, if it has been less than a year and he purchased it domestically. BTW, Ted, we gotta get together before the big rains start--and they are coming.
I find the Suzukis are usually gapped lower than Hohners--and I work on both.
Manji players
Last Edited by Gnarly on Sep 13, 2015 8:14 AM
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mlefree
402 posts
Sep 13, 2015
8:19 AM
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I have a full set of 12 Suzuki Promasters that I half-valved under PT's tutelage when he first (re)emerged with his new chromatic method almost a decade ago.
They are terrific instruments except for the objectionable electrical reaction I get if I try to tongue block them due to the difference in Galvanic potential between their aluminum combs and their copper reed pates. They are a good ten years old and I've never had a hint of trouble with them other than the one mentioned. I love 'em in spite of that.
Edit: The Galvanic reaction is almost a non-issue because I can't really tongue block half-valved harps anyway. The valve material is like a sponge.
Michelle
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SilverWingLeather.com
email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
Last Edited by mlefree on Sep 13, 2015 8:23 AM
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Thievin' Heathen
603 posts
Sep 13, 2015
8:33 AM
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I wonder how that "Laser Tuning" is done? A human deciding how many times to stroke it? A separate laser measuring reed cycles through the gap and then applying tuning laser stokes to bring it into spec? There really need not ever be an audible measurement taken until the purchaser blows into the harp.
All, very fascinating.
There is a lot to work with on a Manji, if it needs it. That composite comb can be flat sanded as can the draw plates, though I find them a little slippery without rivets. I have not entertained the thought of embossing the slots, they appear tight and perfectly consistent. Perhaps profiling the reeds(?), we know they are going to be straight, but I have not attempted that yet. So, that leaves gapping, which, beyond factory settings, is personal taste and playing style.
Tyler, the Manji you purchased sounds like a bad one that slipped through.
I have 2 or 3 of them, and I will buy more.
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Gnarly
1465 posts
Sep 13, 2015
8:39 AM
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I am not sure how the tuning is accomplished, probably a trade secret.
I seldom flat sand the combs, but routinely flat sand the plates. Yes, they are tough to grab hold of--last time I did one, I fit the tip of a steel rod (the wrong end of a mini file I got from Michael's) into the center rear screw hole, that served pretty well as a handle.
What is the consensus, do folks get improvement by swapping out combs? Ask Andrew and Tom . . .
Last Edited by Gnarly on Sep 13, 2015 8:47 AM
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Gnarly
1466 posts
Sep 13, 2015
8:46 AM
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As far as "scoring"--the aesthetics of the reeds and reed plates--they don't have to look pretty to sound pretty.
OTOH, "just 'cause they're pretty, that don't mean that they're so nice--play the blues."
Think Twice
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Ian
83 posts
Sep 13, 2015
9:17 AM
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I know that this isn't an 'important' point regarding the manji.... But I really like the smell of the comb. Reminds me of violin rosin.
....... That is all......
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ted burke
364 posts
Sep 13, 2015
11:58 AM
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I am afraid that I've voided the warranty due to some adjustments I have made on my own on the SUB 30. I am chalking it up to a lesson learned. It was, in my view, an instrument that was not ready for the market. We should get together, Gary. Jam some, talk some.
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Ted Burke
tburke4@san.rr.com
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Mirco
315 posts
Sep 13, 2015
12:36 PM
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My Manji is the sweetest sounding, most responsive, comfortable harmonica I've ever purchased OOTB. I wouldn't say I've tried a lot of different harps, but I've tried different Hohners (Big River, SP20, Blues Harp, XO) and the Seydel Session Steel. Manji blows them all away.
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Marc Graci
YouTube Channel
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florida-trader
774 posts
Sep 14, 2015
4:49 PM
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Tyler - something doesn't add up. I've worked on dozens and dozens of Manjis and unlike a Hohner reed plate, where file marks on the reeds are very evident, there aren't any file marks on Manji reed plates. That's because Suzuki does not use files to tune the reeds. They use lasers. You will see very fine lines, which are quite symmetric - but no file marks. You say that it was a "new Manji in E". Are you certain that it wasn't worked on by someone other than the Suzuki factory? Who did you buy it from?
You also say that the draw plate was curved like a hockey stick. Would you please elaborate? Was it concave or convex? Concave would be the middle of the reed plate touched the comb first and the ends were warped away from the comb. Concave would be the two ends of the reed plate touched the comb but it was bowed in the middle. Some hockey sticks are curved more than others. How bent was it? Reed plates can be flattened very easily. You should not rely on the 8 screws to flatten the plates. The plate should already be flat. One of the most common practices when working on harps is flat sanding draw plates. Even a draw plate that looks flat should be flat sanded to remove the high and low spots on the plate.
You favorably compare the Manji to a "Big River with Blues Harp covers". That is no a big surprise. While the Big River is a very underrated harp, it is Hohner's least expensive harp that you could consider a real musical instrument. The biggest reason the Big River doesn't get more love is because the comb is not good. Even if the Manji and Big River had comparable reed plates, the Manji would still play better because the stock Manji comb is vastly superior to the Big River stock comb.
Finally, you state that "the Manji is not the best out of the box harp I have played by any means; but after adjustments, it is in the top 3 easily." What are the other two harps in your top 3? I'm curious.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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Tyler
17 posts
Sep 14, 2015
8:59 PM
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No marks on the reeds other than laser tuning. The plates have the scratches. Like Gnarly said, it's aesthetic. But sloppy.
Purchased from Long and McQuade ... how does one become certain that no one touched it? Seems incredibly unlikely.
The low and middle octave touch and the high end curves off. I say hockey stick in reference to the curve at one end. I usually sand plates if they are visibly flat.
I compared to the big River because that is my only other E. I find it tough to properly compare different models if the key is different. I wanted a proper playing E - hence the Manji. In fact the br started life as an Eb. I could compare to harps of similar keys (f, high g, D) in which case it is worse OOTB than a marine band, and LO, but much nicer after set up.
No longer talking OOTB, Manji, Promaster, and a sp20 I have spent lots of time on. In short I was disappointed with OOTB and wowed after tweaking.
I get the impression that my experience is not the norm...I must have a Friday product.
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shakeylee
381 posts
Sep 14, 2015
9:37 PM
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manjis are my primary acoustic harp.i have probably had 20 or so.i know my wife usually insists i buy G,C,A and D ,because i will end up needing them at some point.i usually have at least seven of them going at a time.
the only problem i've ever had was once i got one that was ET .
other than that they have all been very good OOTB !
i think you got a rare bird :)
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www.shakeylee.com
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florida-trader
780 posts
Sep 15, 2015
4:54 AM
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Tyler - thanks for the clarification. There are lots of moving parts in this conversation. I never heard of Long and McQuade (but I just googled them and see that they are "Canada's biggest online music store"). I buy more harps than most since I re-sell them. I have had the experience of buying a supposedly new harp and after disassembling it finding that someone, other than the factory, had worked on the reed plates. The only thing I can figure is that the store accepted a return, assumed the harp was in new condition, and re-sold it to me. No question that it is far-fetched, but maybe this is how you acquired a new Manji with scratches on the plate when there should be none. I dunno. Just speculating.
I don't understand your statement about the hockey stick. "I usually sand plates if they are visibly flat." Is that a typo? If they are not flat, does that mean you do not sand them? Thanks for the clarification about the Hockey Stick shape. I find that odd as well. More often than not, if a reed plate is bent, it is bowed in the middle - not at one end. Chromatic mouthpieces are intentionally bowed in the middle so when you tighten down the ends it compresses the mouthpiece against the harp. I sometimes wonder if the bow in the reed plates are intentional for the same reason.
Anyway, I tend to agree with some of the other guys' assessments. Seems like you got a lemon but fortunately for you, you made lemonade and now have a good harp.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Sep 15, 2015 4:56 AM
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Tyler
18 posts
Sep 15, 2015
5:26 AM
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Hey Tom, I just mean I wouldn't think to try to fix a curve with sanding, I've only tried sanding as the last bit more to fix slight unevenness.
I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I want to like the Manji and if mines just a lemon that needed some extra love, maybe I am not put off them. :)
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