Can I get your advice and tips on amplifying acoustic playing with a moderately loud band?
I've worked out how to do this amped (cupped) which had it's own challenges - getting sufficient volume while playing gently for good technique, managing feedback.
My first experience is of the big difference in volume depending on where you are with the respect to the mic, but that you do need to vary that distance to use different hand effects. When recording, or in a quiet setting, it doesn't seem to be a problem, but live through a PA with a band, it seems to swing between inaudible and too loud.
I'm after specific advice e.g. what EQ to try, do you use a compressor, do you ask the sound man to vary the settings as you play. Or is it down to your technique?
If it's all playing technique, that's fine, but if there are technical tips and tricks it would be good to know them. Thanks.
There are a lot of different factors to consider in these situations.
I normally play acoustically through a vocal mic, wether I'm with my band or at a jam. I normally ask the sound engineer to add a little more gain and a touch of reverb, this helps it to cut through slightly better.
You also need to tell the sound engineer what you are hearing in the monitors. Play at a comfortable distance from the mic and tell him if you need more or less volume. It might take a couple of songs to get the level right, ask him between songs – out front you just have to trust him to get it right.
Now the tricky thing is that depending on the situation - the room/stage/positioning of other mics etc – he may not be able to get it above a certain level before it starts feeding back. If this is the case you need to adjust your distance to the mic. Your distance and position (left/right) of the mic can make a massive difference. As a general rule you want to be directing your sound straight down the middle of the mic.
Sometimes I've been forced to play right on the mic and even cup it just to get the volume. If it's a bit of an ad-hoc situation like a jam, you just have to put up with it and do you best with what you've got. If it's more of a gig situation you can spend more time in the sound check getting it right.
Technique also has a lot to do with it. You need to develop techniques for projecting the sound. This is not to do with playing "harder", but more to do with the things that produce good tone. Resonance, air pressure, embouchure, how you use your hands out the front of your mouth etc.
The general volume may change, loud song / quiet song. You need to be able to use your ears and adjust your technique and/or distance to the mic. You often hear singers talk about "working the mic". This is a specific skill and technique in itself. How close you need to be at certain points to balance the sound and volume etc. This comes with experience.
Someone a long time ago mentioned this tip on this forum. Have have a look at the clip below of PT. Notice how he is using his hands to create a resonating chamber out the front of his mouth. And also uses it to direct the sound straight at the mic. His hand position relative to the mic hardly ever shifts. Imagine your column of air coming all the way up form the diaphragm, through your harp and outward into the centre of the mic.
There's no single rule for any of this, as there are so many different factors in play. The shape and acoustics of the room, the rig, the position of other players on the stage, if its a loud song or a quite one, the system and desk, the abilities of the sound engineer. You need to be aware of what's going and make adjustments to you position relative to the mic, your technique and sometimes just making the best you can of what you've got to work with.
It can really help to have a volume control on the mic. I need a different level for my singing than my acoustic playing, and if I were to take the mic out of the stand and cup it, I would need yet a 3rd level to be ideal. Of course there's no substitute for dynamic control, but a volume control is really nice to have.
Baker - many thanks that's an excellent summary. I do get the impression it's gone to vary a lot with the situation. By 'technique' I did mean 'working the microphone' too, and clearly something to experiment with and learn. What a great video, a lovely piece of music. And technically it's interesting that his speaking volume and harmonica volume aren't wildly different, even though he's right on top of the mic when playing. Unless someone tells me different (go right ahead) this squares with my recording experience that you can play acoustically gently, but the resulting sound can be big.
Greg - I had come to that conclusion too, that a VC is part of the solution. So my friend has just ordered (or is about to order) a couple of your XLR volume controls for this purpose. One for him, one for me. He sings and plays cupped into the same SM58 Beta, and the difference in signal is far too big to control with playing/singing technique alone, so I recommended your product. For me, using an SM57, the signal difference is even bigger even just putting hands round the mic, let alone cupping it.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 08, 2015 8:51 AM
I usually roll the treble down a bit and add a little reverb while using a tight cup with the high end of the harmonica coming out of the cup and pointing towards the mic.
Although I am more comfortable cupping the mic a stand I was told by Joe Filisko that you should never do this with a mic/PA that has been set up for vocals unless you know what you are doing or have agreed it with the sound man.
Joe talked about this at some length at blues week a few years ago, there is also an interview on David Barrett's youtube channel where Joe talks about it. If you are singing through the same mic you shouldn't roll the treble down.
I use one of Greg's Ultimate 58s for singing and on many occasions I also will cup it for harp. When I cup the mic to play the harp I cut the volume with the control. The proximity effect darkens the tone some when you cup it. You can get a little driven sound with a tight cup, and a more clean natural sound with a loose cup.
If I use the Ultimate 58 in the stand (like a regular 58) for singing and playing I leave the EQ pretty flat to make sure vocals work, and I do not cut highs. I also leave the mic volume turned all the way up. With any vocal mic in a stand you can use your hands to form a cup (not on the mic) and cut the highs some with your hands, also directing the harp sound and adding effects by changing your hand cup.
If I am ONLY playing harp with a vocal mic and cupping I may cut highs a little at the board, or ask the sound man to cut highs a little.
When sitting in (which I do quite a bit) having the volume control on my mic really helps me to adjust my sound to the mix, especially when there is no one running sound from the room. But many times when you sit in you need to know how to use what is offered.
It is another important technique to learn to use your hands while playing through a vocal mic in a stand, without cupping. Joe Filisko is great at it. ----------
And just for counterpoint - I also sing and play acoustic through an Ultimate 58, but when I sing I "eat the mic" and when I play acoustic I want my "wah" hands between harp and mic - so I set up for harp playing with the mic at full, and sing with it turned down about 1/4 turn. ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
Good. Dealing with the volume differences does seem to be a big part of the technique. I just tried the 'Filisko cup' and it does change the sound considerably removing the sharp trebles. However there isn't much volume available. I estimate it removes 6dB vs playing 'cup sitting on the mic'. Whereas cupping the mic conventionally boosts the signal by about 15dB. I wonder if I can turn up the mic enough to use it in the context of a loudish band, I'll have to try. I suppose that is part of all this - working out to use and where.
dougharps - yes that's exactly what I'm after ideally, using hand effects with a vocal mic rather than cupping it hard.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jul 08, 2015 1:17 PM
That's an interesting tip Greg. I've started with a new guitar player who also writes and sings. He plays guitar on my stuff when I sing and I play harp on his stuff when he sings. Being able to get some dual function control would be great. Gotta go check out your site and see what kind of coin I have to save up. ---------- LSC
For the last year at my band rehearsals, I have left my amp at home and do all my harp solos thru the vocals. It has taken me months to get to a point I have a bit of control, but I still have a lot more work to do. For a couple of the songs we do, playing acoustic adds a completely different sound/tone/feel then playing thru the amp.
I decided to start doing this as I have been going to a number of open mics lately and necessity has forced me to play thru the PA system. I am finding the harp players that show up with their "back saving" amps at these jams project about 3 feet from the stage and get swallowed up by the twin guitarists. In the end, the harp player sounds like, well, nothing. So, the PA is the better choice
6SN7 - glad to hear you say that. It is helpful even to know that making this work isn't that straightforward and needs the right kit, technique and practice. Getting an electric guitar heard does now seem very easy in comparison.
harmonicanick - I'm sorry but I don't understand the question. Are you asking me if I have a big acoustic volume? Or if can I do hand effects?
I remember that you mentioned your approach to me before (eating the turned down mic for vocals, playing harp off mic at full volume for hand effects). I can see how this could work. I assume you usually also have your Sonny amp and cup your harp mic to vary your sound. My concern about eating the mic for vocals would be the proximity effect muddying up my vocals. My voice is already a bit muddy. I have a limited range, lower pitched voice that needs mid highs or it gets muddy.
Do you ever have problems with proximity effect darkening your vocals when you eat an Ultimate 58 when singing?
Edit: Here is a video about proximity effect. It appears that if your voice is right the proximity effect can be used beneficially. Is that the case for you, Greg?
