so how do you tell someone they are playing the wrong notes? do you tell someone they are playing the wrong notes? you are playing the wrong notes, do you want someone to tell you? are you aware you are playing the wrong notes or are you oblivious to that fact.
on the other thread someone wrote out that the notes to messing with the kid started on the 6 inhale and went to the 5 exhale it was determined that this was just an typographical error.
how ever i have heard it played just that way many many times that would be an perfect example
if the band is playing a minor 3 and you are playing a major 3 rd would be another example
I have had the good fortune of playing with musicians these days who know their stuff and will let me know if what I am playing is musically inconsistent with the song. I value information that helps me improve performances.
One example of "wrong" might be major over minor, or perhaps playing a note that is unintentionally dissonant with a note in a chord.
To me "wrong" is not necessarily failing to conform to a specific recorded version UNLESS it is intended to copy it accurately.
So if I hear someone attempt to copy a recorded riff and it is not accurate, I would ask them if they were copying the recorded riff and point out what they were doing differently than the recording, suggesting they review the recording.
This would be offered not as criticism for playing something "wrong", but as one player helping another play the best they can.
A few months ago we decided to add a song to our list. Our guitar player pointed out that I was not playing the "Messin' with the Kid" riff correctly. I had played it inaccurately for 20 years. The correct way is harder. I was glad for the information and disappointed that I hadn't listened carefully enough to have caught the error myself. ----------
Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jun 25, 2015 11:39 AM
Paul Butterfield wasn't playing all the right notes for his famous version of Cannonball Adderly's "Work Song" because the diatonic harmonica , at the time, couldn't play certain segments of the head. Butterfield adjusted the tune, though, and produced one of the definitive versions of the tune. Sometimes wrong is right. ---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
as a beginner I often do my best to reproduce the original lick to a song. But often I simply do not have the skill to do it exactly the same so I do a simplified version.
Is that "wrong"? I don't think so, but If I were playing major on a minor key I know that would be wrong and I hope someone would politely tell me what was going on.
I have made that mistake before, no one said a word but I could just tell I was not fitting the song so I layed out the rest of the way. after the song i asked the bass player what the key was "A minor" he relpied. DOH!
I go to church. There's a buddy of mine who runs the little library and he is pathologically afraid of confronting people regarding overdue books.
I don't know if it's been clear in my short time here but I'm a little like Sheldon. I have a sort of ignorance of how some things are done socially. Sometimes this is an advantage, sometimes not.
When I heard my friend was afraid to ask someone about overdue books, I punched him in the arm and said, "You do it like this ...". I walked up to the guy in question and said with a smile, "Yo David ... bring your overdue books back!" He laughed and said, "Ok!" Problem solved.
So (long way around): HOW do you tell people __________? Meh, just TELL them.
SHOULD you tell them? THAT'S the really tricky question.
---------- My YouTube Channel - Any Likes or Comments appreciated. :)
http://tinyurl.com/muchtcc
http://givealittle.co.nz/cause/help4danny
Last Edited by Danny Starwars on Jun 25, 2015 1:43 PM
Some people think I am playing this tune wrong, and perhaps I am. Actually, I am pretty sure I am not playing precisely what Jr.Wells did. However, this is ingrained in my version and guitarists, pianists and other harp players, and audiences for that matter, have mostly enjoyed what's been done here. Wrong is sometimes right
---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Jun 25, 2015 9:29 PM
When a signature line of a song has entered the general listener's consciousness, it usually sounds akward/weird/somewhat "wrong" when it is played differently.
I believe that once ingrained and listening to others play it, the mind of the listener tries to "sing along" in unison based on memory of such.
When it diverges, it doesn't create endorphins of pleasure, but rather induces an uncomfortable feeling - especially if the first note of the line differs - not so much the penultimate one (as shown on the other threads about this song).
At least this is my feeling on the matter. ---------- The Iceman
A signature lick that deviates from the signature format aint right. I agree with Iceman.
Nothing wrong with Teds tune but if you didnt say so I would not have known it was supposed to be Messin with the Kid-especially without lyrics
70 years ago our fore fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty.
Doesnt sound right this way even if it means the same as the original
Because All Along the Watchtower preserved the chord progression and lyrics its just a different version of the song. Dylans didnt have a signature lick
Ted - you're playing it wrong. At least, if you ever want to play with others. This is a standard and the opening is
6+ 5 4 4+ 3' 3" 2 2" 2
That's how the others will play it so if you play it different it will sound funny.
That's how you tell people they're playing it wrong. The goal is the music. If their ego is bruised that's their problem. The goal is the music. Just say it. You can be nice, and supportive. But don't shroud it is so much smoke that the truth is hard to find. ---------- *************************************************** /Greg
Greg, you are telling me something I already copped to. I wrote "... I am pretty sure I am not playing precisely what Jr.Wells did. " Remember? Anyway, I have played this version of the tune with some quality blues musicians for quite a while with no ill effects either to the tune, the ears of the other players, the morals of the audience. It sounded good most times, other times not so hot. My experience tells me other wise as to whether I would be able to play this tune with other musicians.
Sometimes wrong is right
Last Edited by ted burke on Jun 25, 2015 9:42 PM
"If you are playing something else (.)You are messing up."
Really, as a default result? I don't think so. If the "wrong" notes are played well and blend or contrast well with chords under them, the results, intended or gained in the pursuit of deliberate experimentation, can make for interesting music. This is not classical music, this is blues, which is to be changed up, modified, augmented, blended and reconfigured as much as the musician thinks it should be. It's not always succesful, but tunes , standards or otherwise, if musicians depart from what's expected. This keeps blues musicians from being mere reenactors of an style whose sound is frozen in time. It keeps blues a a fresh means to express the human experience. It doesn't always work, to be sure. That's why I say "SOMETIMES wrong is right", not "always."
I agree with Dannys viewpoint but i have to say that the previous statements re 'anything' within reason works as long as the other band members agree on how to play "le Riff" is correct too. I've seen some real train wrecks with this song at jams
I find errors in Ted's above response to 1847's post.
1847 is talking about unison.
When Ted quotes and answers
<<"If you are playing something else (.)You are messing up."
Really, as a default result? I don't think so. If the "wrong" notes are played well and blend or contrast well with chords under them, the results, intended or gained in the pursuit of deliberate experimentation, can make for interesting music.>>
he omitted the fact that the subject there was "unison" - not individual notes in relation to chords under them.
I suppose it comes down to personal outlook.
The musician in me would find it hard to play with the musician in Ted based on differing philosophies of what sounds good in ensemble playing and soloing.
This doesn't make me right or wrong.
---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 26, 2015 1:20 AM
I have the chance to play with several bands at times. It seems that each band will play the same song the way the like it, or the way the front person likes it. I will be asked at times to follow their lead no matter what, as long as it sounds good.
A bit OT, Ted is not playing it in unison or 'correct' but if I walked into a venue and heard Ted's version being played I would instantly know it was 'messing with the kid' you would have to be deaf or not know the song not to recognise it from that version. ----------
"Those British boys want to play the blues real bad, and they do"
No error, Ice, what I described was another way of playing along with a tune that sometimes results in interesting and, yes, pleasurable listening. Remember that conversations evolve as they go on, like it or not, and what I offered was part of that evolution. What was offered was how deviating from an established head can still make for music someone wants to listen to. And , as I mentioned above, the results can vary. Musicians of different philosophies are able to find common ground in their playing and still make music ; the little thing called "rehearsal" is a time for the ground work to be established and differences assuaged. It's surprising no one has mentioned that as a means of letting someone know they are things that need to be established ; if the musicians are good and the least bit professional, differences are resolved quickly and music commences.---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Jun 26, 2015 5:21 AM
I'm with Iceman when he says – "When a signature line of a song has entered the general listener's consciousness, it usually sounds akward/weird/somewhat "wrong" when it is played differently."
Although Ted's version above, "technically" musically not wrong (the notes don't sound bad), for me it's not correct.
Extracting feeling (and therefore communication) from music is about the relationships the notes have to the other ones around them. Using different notes, even if they don't clash, alters the tension, changes the feeling and therefore the musical motive of the song, and therefore you are not playing the song correctly.
It's not about "not sounding bad", it's about what you are "saying".
Last Edited by Baker on Jun 26, 2015 5:37 AM
I just pointed out to you, Ted, that you did not address the comment, but took a portion of it and spun it into a different direction. ---------- The Iceman
I gave a different point of view, Ice, which is a response to the previous statement. Conversations evolve , remember? I was on topic. You don't seem to think so. We differ there.
I think this, from my last post, bears repeating." Musicians of different philosophies are able to find common ground in their playing and still make music ; the little thing called "rehearsal" is a time for the ground work to be established and differences assuaged. It's surprising no one has mentioned that as a means of letting someone know they are things that need to be established ; if the musicians are good and the least bit professional, differences are resolved quickly and music commences."---------- Ted Burke
---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
Last Edited by ted burke on Jun 26, 2015 6:10 AM
1847- Yes I want to know and have been corrected quite a few times. I don't want to play it wrong. When you improvise,you have more room to play "wrong" notes,but if it's a specific melody or a unison riff,you should play it right. Jazz seems to not follow those rules superficially,but if you look closely,it is still following a scale or harmony.
Some times the band will play the Messin riff and I have to play a full step bend on 2. Other bands play it so I have to hit the 2B instead. I do it however they do it.
Last Edited by Tuckster on Jun 26, 2015 9:08 AM
i am a huge sugar blue fan, his work on the stones record is stunning..... a masterpiece. i have listened to "miss you" a million times i would sit in, with my friends band and play that song. one day we are riding to the gig and my friend tells me...
you are playing the wrong note.
i was devastated. my choices were to never play that song again or to fix my mistake. i swear i had the notes to that down verbatim. so what was i doing wrong?... the song is in A minor i was using a D harp and hitting the 8 blow C# A minor.... is all about the flat 3rd the C note i see said the blind man.
i am eternally grateful that my friend spoke up he was very reluctant to do so. and justifiably so, those words haunt me to this very day. i am a much better player for it, i still make mistakes but try to fix them. even a child knows right from wrong if they make a mistake we lightly paddle their bottom but at some point when they have reached a certain age of accountability. they know better and have no excuse. we take their harmonica away from them, and request 'that they go outside and play ball with the other kids in the neighborhood.
word of the day... unison.... in unison, in perfect accord; corresponding exactly: simultaneous or synchronous parallel action:
side note to ice... did sugar miss a note on that recording or did i just hear it incorrectly?
It seems that the better musicians you play with are quicker to point out you're doing it wrong.Playing it wrong reenforces the harmonica Gus stigma.My harp teacher has a great ear and always gently points out that I am playing a particular melody wrong. It's usually only a half step off,but it's still wrong.But it's actually improved my own ear by knowing it's wrong.
1847...side note to ice... did sugar miss a note on that recording or did i just hear it incorrectly?>>
Talking about Miss You by the Stones? I don't have a copy of that song. if you send me an mp3, I'll give it a sharp listen. email is shown if you click on my name.
---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jun 26, 2015 11:47 AM
I don't play wrong notes. Have a listen to whatever I've posted on MBH over the years. Staying with "safe" notes, however, can be boring. Sometimes notes that sound wrong to one set of ears can sound innovative to the next.
Remember the story about the blind men describing the elephant? I think this thread is a bit like that. Everyone is basically on the same page once you put all the bits of the elephant together.
---------- My YouTube Channel - Any Likes or Comments appreciated. :)
Vamp on this song is in Aeolian mode. Sugar is soloing in Dorian mode.
Harmonicaspeak:
Vamp on this song is in 4th position. Sugar is soloing in third position.
The one note that is different between these modes/positions is the 6th scale degree - minor 6 in Aeolian, major 6 in Dorian.
When Sugar hits that major 6, he is playing what can be described simply as a major third while the band is playing a minor third chord - probably one of the most "objectionable" choices of notes to the casual listener, i.e. a wrong note. ---------- The Iceman
Starting out I was so hard up to play with people I would put bands together where no one, including me, knew how to play worth a darn and we all tried to help each other learn to play right. It was a ton of fun and a special stop on the journey. Fast forward about 45 years and now when I play with someone if we don't groove right off it is over. It is all relative what is right and wrong. If you are having fun it is right and if you are not it is wrong. On that level my benchmark has not changed since day one. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
#111 Walter, good BT to just impro with. Actually its your backing guitar rhythm that sets the mood to play some harp, similar in most of your faster songs, always a keen observer and wood shed player, even if my fans are my 2 cats who look at me with some kind of wtf are you doing Stan kind of stare, All in fun.
Last Edited by Steamrollin Stan on Jun 27, 2015 6:07 AM
Ice, first of all thank you. Your Insight here is greatly appreciated not just by me but many others I’m sure.
So he was playing a C# So I did have it right, and by having it right I am still wrong. I cant win for losing. Lol or as muddy would say you cant spend what you aint got You cant lose what you never had. Not sure what the heck he meant by that but it is beginning to make sense as well. lmao
You can see how much frustration this simple song has caused me.
Ok this is a dangerous question Re: the clip I posted. How badly am I messing up?
If you were in the audience outside at the beach, after a few drinks, Would I get a polite hand clap What would be your thoughts as you were hearing this?
Is he even using a D harp?
A G harp works but it does not sound like the record, listen to the last few notes he uses on the outro.
If they ask you, "how did I sound", you tell them. If they are paying you for lessons, you tell them. In just about every other situation you are wasting your breath.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Jun 28, 2015 8:11 AM
I do this song regularly with my band, and like Rob says, the song is in the key of A minor. The main riff of the song lays out nicely in 2nd position, which means you'd use a D harp.
The notes of the riff are:
G - A - D - C - A - G - A G - A - D - C - A - G - A G - A - C - A
I play it in 2nd position on a D harp. Obviously the 2nd draw and 3rd draw notes have to be bent to the correct pitches (G and C).
However, as Rob implies, there are other ways to play the song, based on your familiarity with different harp positions. Two alternative positions that leap to me are using a G harp in 3rd position and an F harp in 5th position.
But judging on what Sugar Blue is doing in his solo, the octaves he's playing in, and the tone quality he's getting, I believe he plays most if not all of his solo in 2nd position.
"6115 the easy boogie, your style mate, always a good listen. S.S."
Thanks for the compliment Stan. It took me a bit to figure out what those numbers were and realized they were the numbers of the songs :-) I never figured anyone would look through 111 song titles. Did you just randomly scroll to them? I forget the songs a day after I record them. The one man band thing is very meditative. When it is working right I feel like there is a real band behind me and I am just singing and blowing the harp. I never worry about wrong notes because they lead to new places never to repeated again. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
