Header Graphic
Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Chromatic just sounds wrong
Chromatic just sounds wrong
Login  |  Register
Page: 1

harmonicanick
2192 posts
Feb 14, 2015
3:04 PM
Been playin' for years but still can't get it

I know Piazza, Gruenling etc do it justice but still when I switch the diatonic performs...
shakeylee
100 posts
Feb 14, 2015
3:28 PM
for me it clicked when i changed models.i played 270 super chromonicas for years,because that's what i thought george smith and of course little walter used.
a friend of mine had a broken example of another model that i had no interest in,but bought just to help him out.
i fixed it and holy @#$% my playing took off.now i soup up those old 270's and enjoy a little chromatic playing along with my regular diatonic playing.
----------
Harmlessonica
72 posts
Feb 14, 2015
4:44 PM
Maybe the real problem is the chromatic sounds 'too correct' in that all the notes are there, but it lacks the expression you prefer.

That's not wrong, just different.
chromaticblues
1671 posts
Feb 14, 2015
5:25 PM
Most chroms are so leaky it's just hard to get any soul out of em'. Like shakey said if you get one that has been tightened up it opens up a whole new world.
Also the flat truth is chroms aren't as loud. OCTAVES!
You have to learn how to play octaves on the chrom!
jbone
1883 posts
Feb 14, 2015
8:38 PM
I've had pretty good luck with Hering and more recently Suzuki. Not so leaky. It's a fact, chromatic playing is very different than diatonic, but once you work out some 3rd position stuff you will likely get hooked like I did. Wm. Clarke, George Smith, Carey Bell, and several others have informed my playing. If you want some cool new stuff for your trick bag work on 3rd with a good chro.
----------
http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
shakeylee
101 posts
Feb 14, 2015
10:36 PM
yes J-bone,hering does make a nice chromatic.i have some chromatics that are mixed hering and hohner parts.so fun!!
----------

Last Edited by shakeylee on Feb 14, 2015 10:36 PM
Gnarly
1245 posts
Feb 14, 2015
10:40 PM
Ahem.
One year warranty on Suzuki chromatics (and diatonics!).
Make sure you buy them from a US dealer.
Gipsy
127 posts
Feb 14, 2015
11:52 PM
I'm with Gnarly. SCX 64 here. It's a big bugger, but it's airtight, and has wonderful tone.
Little roger
60 posts
Feb 14, 2015
11:58 PM
Maybe give a hohner 364 soloist a go. Plays more like a diatonic as you can bend and it is louder.
R
harmonicanick
2193 posts
Feb 15, 2015
12:58 AM
thanks for input, yes I have only one Chrom and its a 270, will try others
Kingley
3840 posts
Feb 15, 2015
1:22 AM
The Hohner 270 is the industry standard for chromatics.
Octaves are the big thing if you want to play in the George Smith style. Also don't forget that playing octaves on the chromatic requires blocking over five holes and not four like on the diatonic. Bending notes on the chromatic is different to the diatonic and many techniques like the tongue flutter are harder to make sound effective on the chromatic.
If you want to sound like Dennis Gruenling does on chromatic, then you're going to need to practice a lot and listen to horn players, not harmonica players. In fact to get good on chromatic at all, you're really better off listening to horn players and practice a lot.
When you play in what diatonic players refer to as third position D, Dm on a C chrom with the button out. You need to remember that in it's simplest form holes 3, 7 & 11 on a 12 hole chromatic are your blow notes and you can use the slide pushed in (G#) here on the blow notes as well. Once you get the hang of that you should be fine and be able to progress from there.

Last Edited by Kingley on Feb 15, 2015 1:23 AM
Diggsblues
1649 posts
Feb 15, 2015
3:26 AM
Maybe it's time to look at the chromatic in a different way. Everyone tries to play in the old style but there is
more expression there you just have to find it.

----------
Frank101
81 posts
Feb 15, 2015
8:13 AM
It's perfectly okay to not care for the sound of a chromatic. I don't like the sound of a Golden Melody, myself.
WinslowYerxa
787 posts
Feb 15, 2015
8:56 AM
A couple of points:

Little Walter never recorded with a 12-hole chromatic. He mostly played a 280 (16 holes) and once used a 10-hole slide harp tuned like a diatonic (the Koch 980).

Chromatic can be played just as loud as diatonic, but you need to have the right approach. Diatonic players often hit too hard when they pick up a chromatic. Unlike the diatonic, the chromatic doesn't let blow breaths leak through the draw reeds or draw breaths leak through the blow reeds. As a result, it's more sensitive to hard attacks. To play chromatic effectively, you have to learn to modulate your attacks. Once you learn to adapt, you can play hard and aggressively on chromatic. Like this:

Blue Chrome


Chromatic is not everyone's cup of tea, and if it doesn't speak to you as a player, that's OK - though I'm curious about what specifically isn't working out for harmonicanick.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Feb 15, 2015 8:57 AM
dougharps
854 posts
Feb 15, 2015
9:19 AM
Chromatics are significantly different than diatonics and have to be approached with different techniques. While I often use 270 and Hering 12 holes in blues, soul, and a little jazz, I really like a 16 hole chromatic.

I find that:

1) 16 hole chromatics work really well for blues, giving you a massive sound in the lower octave, plus more room for octave and chord playing. When playing in D, third position, on the low end of a 12 hole chromatic I sometimes run out of room if I go to the 4 or 5 chord, G or A, in the bottom octave, and my octave and/or chord falls off the left end. It makes you play more at the higher end with higher notes on a 12 hole. A 4 octave chromatic gives you 3 octaves of room, a 3 octave chromatic gives you 2 octaves of room if playing octaves.

2) You cannot attack as hard, especially on single notes. If you are playing fat chords or octaves it is not as critical.

3) Bending is done differently.

I use 1st, 3rd, and 4th position more than others on chromatic.

----------

Doug S.

Last Edited by dougharps on Feb 15, 2015 9:20 AM
shakeylee
103 posts
Feb 15, 2015
9:51 AM
@DIGGS BLUES,IT WAS GREAT TO SEE MIKEY JUNIOR,paul sfrosty and saul urban in that video!!!

very nice playing!!!

BUT,the twisted tail has such good food that you made me hungry :)
----------
Diggsblues
1650 posts
Feb 15, 2015
11:36 AM
@shakeylee Glad you liked it. Hope to be back at the jam as soon as the weather gets a lot warmer.
----------
shakeylee
105 posts
Feb 15, 2015
11:52 AM
WinslowYerxa
787 posts
Feb 15, 2015
8:56 AM A couple of points:

Little Walter never recorded with a 12-hole chromatic. He mostly played a 280 (16 holes) and once used a 10-hole slide harp tuned like a diatonic (the Koch 980)."

i never knew this!! i always thought LW used a 270!!
----------
WinslowYerxa
788 posts
Feb 15, 2015
12:52 PM
Other blues greats have used the 270 to play third position in various keys on chromatic. However, Little Walter's third position work is always in D (Except one tune where he held the slide in and played in Eb) and always uses the low notes below Middle C that aren't available on a standard 270 in C. He once or twice tried playing in C on a 280 ("That's It" and Muddy's "My Eyes Keep Me in Trouble"). Also, he was photographed with a 280 but never with any other chromatic.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
tmf714
2720 posts
Feb 15, 2015
2:17 PM
Little Walter-"That's It" song in the key of C-Walter uses a Bb diatonic in third and also a C Chromatic with the button in trying to play in Bb-




Last Edited by tmf714 on Feb 15, 2015 2:38 PM
WinslowYerxa
789 posts
Feb 15, 2015
2:51 PM
How is he "trying to play in Bb," Tom? The song is in C and he's playing in C using slide-in draw notes.
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
tmf714
2721 posts
Feb 15, 2015
2:56 PM
Hes trying to play in third position-Bb on the C chromatic.

In other words-he would have been ok if he was playing Bb CHROMATIC IN THIRD

Last Edited by tmf714 on Feb 15, 2015 2:59 PM
tmf714
2722 posts
Feb 15, 2015
3:01 PM
From Bill Strauss-

The one exception to this general pattern is That's It from 1953, a song in the key of C. Walter plays mostly in 3rd position
on a diatonic (Bb) harp, but takes a quickly aborted (after 12 bars) chromatic harp break where, in my opinion, he is using
a C chromatic to try and play in 3rd position, but he is doing it with the button in. My theory is that he knew he wasn't
playing in D, which is the button out key for 3rd position on a C chromatic, so he tried playing with the button in.
Unfortunately for him (and for the rest of us!) the song wasn’t in Eb either, which would be the button in key for 3rd
position. He doesn’t seem to realize until it is too late that he is not in the right key. I am fairly convinced that Walter was
not trying to play in 1st position here (as other harp players have suggested to me), simply because I think he would have
done a better job of it if that’s what he was actually doing. Note: This song, which is really great but was unreleased
almost certainly for this reason, finally came out in 1995 on the Blues with a Feeling CD
shakeylee
106 posts
Feb 15, 2015
3:13 PM
oh my.

i kind of wish i hadn't listened to that.we've all been there .i just didn't expect it from my super hero!


----------
chromaticblues
1672 posts
Feb 16, 2015
11:28 AM
First of The song "That's It" SUCKS!
This song isn't worth arguing about.
I only have one version and LW starts the song off playing a Bb diatonic in third position then switch's to C chromatic playing draw notes with the slide in.
This is the easiest way to play C minor.
All the draw notes are the minor notes of the C scale and draw 4 and 8 are C. The root note.
Play this simple blues scale:
blow 1
draw 1 slide in
draw 2
draw 2 slide in
blow 3
draw 3 slide in
and draw 4 slide in or blow 4 (both notes are C)
Now just hold the slide in and slide from draw 1 up to draw 5 while drawing sounding all the notes. Then go back to draw 4 the whole time keeping the slide in.
THERE are no wrong notes! and it sounds good!
tmf714
2723 posts
Feb 16, 2015
12:15 PM
That's great except the songs on the key of c not c minor
Little roger
62 posts
Feb 16, 2015
1:37 PM
Interesting theory. Never thought that he might have actually WANTED to play in Eb. Yep, those draw notes may well be ok over Cm but it all sounds pretty off in the context of this C major song. Guess we will never know for sure. But I do agree that it is not his finest hour.
R
jbone
1887 posts
Feb 16, 2015
4:22 PM
dougharps makes a good point about 12 vs 16 hole harps. I have been able to justify the expense of a 12, then had to turn around and get a baritone in that key to cover low octave.
In future I may have to get a 16. At present I am almost set for the keys I need the most for what we do.
----------
http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
WinslowYerxa
792 posts
Feb 16, 2015
4:44 PM
if the song is in C then anything he tries to play over it is by definition in C.

Note how he hangs for long notes on C or the C-Eb combination. And he frames his range mostly in the one octave between one C and another, playing riffs that descend to and end in the lower C.

In fact, he's more or less duplicating the same notes he focuses on when he's playing diatonic - C, Eb, Gb, and C again an octave hgiher - draw notes on both instruments. It works on the diatonic and logically should work as well on the chromatic but ends up sounding weird.

The distinction between C and C minor in blues is not always cut and dried. You can play a minor note against a major chord and it's a blue note - such as the Eb (minor third) against a C major chord (C-E-G).
===========
Winslow

Check out my blog and other goodies at winslowyerxa.com
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective

Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Feb 16, 2015 5:28 PM
chromaticblues
1674 posts
Feb 16, 2015
5:16 PM
@tmf
Yeah I know it was in C major, but what I said still works because it is BLUES! I agree it sounded like he wasn't sure what he was trying to do. Again this song isn't worth wasting time over!
Harpaholic
633 posts
Feb 16, 2015
5:32 PM
Not perfect, but I like it! Is there anyone here that can even come close to LW's version?

Here's Rod's version, he switches to Chromo at 1:43.




Here's recorded version:

Last Edited by Harpaholic on Feb 16, 2015 5:42 PM
Little roger
63 posts
Feb 16, 2015
10:03 PM
@Winslow

"if the song is in C then anything he tries to play over it is by definition in C"

Can I quote you on that ? ;-)

Of course you can play minor over major, some even play major over minor. When I played this to my pianist, the response was immediately "He's in the wrong key". Interesting in as much as the notes he is playing are "more or less" right.

As stated above, the song is not really worth getting into. It takes a Piazza to cover it.


Post a Message



(8192 Characters Left)


Modern Blues Harmonica supports

§The Jazz Foundation of America

and

§The Innocence Project

 

 

 

ADAM GUSSOW is an official endorser for HOHNER HARMONICAS