MindTheGap
515 posts
Jan 27, 2015
1:27 AM
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Although I don't have a massive problem with feedback, it's always there as a niggle and limitation. If I thought an anti-feedback pedal was the answer, I'd probably get one but reading back through the archives here it's not as simple as that.
It's easy to see why a pedal might work perfectly in one setting (an otherwise quiet room) and not in a louder band setting. That's described in the posts - ambient noise loud enough to open a noise gate, for instance, as reported by Superbee.
I can see there isn't a one-size-fits-all answer, so what are your practical experiences? And in your opinion is it worth trying the pedals, or is a volume control on the mic just as good?
For instance, gain is supposed to be the enemy - so in a live, loud situation do you expect to work with a less overdriven sound that you would when recording or playing in a quieter setting?
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didjcripey
851 posts
Jan 27, 2015
2:33 AM
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With PA's and a five watt amp I was constantly fighting feedback; very loud band.
EQ, cupping technique and no pedals except for delay helped; but still always on the edge and blowing hard.
Fender super reverb, 4x10" speakers... problem solved.
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Lucky Lester
Last Edited by didjcripey on Jan 27, 2015 2:43 AM
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MN
380 posts
Jan 27, 2015
3:11 AM
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Here's my tale ....... Once I became proficient in playing overblows, and in bending notes while tongue-blocking, 95 percent of my feedback problems disappeared. It wasn't about playing with that embouchure all the time, or playing those particular notes -- not at all. But learning each requires playing from a deeper place, with more resonance. It's more about breathing vs. blowing. And that translates into more, better sound into the mic. Thus, the amp doesn't have to work as hard, thus I began having less feedback issues. AND, gear I didn't enjoy playing through before suddenly started sounding better. Imagine.
Last Edited by MN on Jan 27, 2015 3:12 AM
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Littoral
1196 posts
Jan 27, 2015
8:08 AM
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MN, that's a nice reflection on your own progression. Precise note clarity and tone absolutely cut so that's a huge part of the puzzle. That said, if the headroom sans feedback isn't there it can be a lost cause.
4-10's properly set up is the short answer, assuming technique. If that's not loud enough before feeding back then the band is likely too loud. You shouldn't have to have harp in the monitors to hear on stage (exceptions maybe to a lot of separation/large stages).
All said, the LW Octave has been great for me. Regardless of the effect (which is mostly a nice focus of higher mids) I use the level to control my volume, often without any effect. I can push the amps volume about 20% past its normal feedback threshold and get what I need when I need it with the pedal level -and it's without sweep. That's a big deal. I do have a VC on my mic but that doesn't control my AMP volume and I can do that from the pedal quickly and do it stealthy without touching the amp. We all see when someone turns up. It also allows me to put the amp further away from me on stage which better represents the sound in the room vs. stage.
Last Edited by Littoral on Jan 27, 2015 1:19 PM
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TetonJohn
235 posts
Jan 27, 2015
12:42 PM
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Barely a tale:
When I did have feedback problems, I found the Kinder AFB+ to be effective; I still bring it to gigs, but have not had to use it. That's just my experience -- sounds from your post like there are threads saying otherwise. If I were feeling a niggle and limitation, I would be glad to have the AFB+ with me. Of course, it ain't cheap! Maybe you could borrow one (from the MBH gear lending library -- wouldn't that be too cool?!)
I suppose there may be a bit more implied -- why don't I use it anymore? I found an amp that got me the right sound at the right volume w/o being on the edge of feedback, and a good volume for me to hear myself in the band I'm in; speaker positioned well.
+1 on the LW Harp Octave (it was often good enough that I stopped using my AFB+ for a bit while still using the octave pedal -- right now -- no pedals).
Last Edited by TetonJohn on Jan 27, 2015 2:02 PM
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SuperBee
2371 posts
Jan 27, 2015
1:21 PM
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i dunno about 20%, but i agree about the LW Octave pedal. no idea why it works but it does help.
a big amp definitely helps, if you use an amp on stage. i like to, because i like to be able to have some control over what i hear on stage.
the pa can be good, but you are somewhat at the mercy of the operator. this experience can be variable.
if your amp just isnt loud enough, you need a louder amp, or reinforce with pa.
if you reinforce with pa and mic your amp, and also have the sound coming back to you in foldback from pa, watch out! you have 2 mics and two amps and can get feedback from both sources. be aware of where the foldback speakers are and try to keep the mic which is on your amp out of the way of them. this is where a lineout is beneficial.
a VC or on/off switch on a mic can be very helpful.
my experience with noise gate pedal was educational. maybe one would help in some circumstances. it didnt help me, it was a pest. i lost $ on the deal but not too many. and i learned some things, not just about feed back.
stages and rooms vary...its all about what goes in the mic and what comes out the speakers...so awareness of speaker location relative to mic is big..and then its about amps and settings i suppose
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shakeylee
63 posts
Jan 27, 2015
2:01 PM
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i have a kinder and a noise gate.sometimes i use both,when i play with a very loud band.
i find that different microphone feedback more in different rooms.there was one rroom i played every thursday for years before i stopped.i usually had to use a ceramic element there,but in other rooms that same mic would feed at low volume.
i tend to carry a few microphones with different elements and find which feeds less for each room,or given night.
in an ideal world,you would play with a band that is quiet enough that feedback is not a problem.however,i am not always the frontman,and sometimes band volume is out of my control.
www.shakeylee.com
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Last Edited by shakeylee on Jan 27, 2015 8:44 PM
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Barley Nectar
624 posts
Jan 27, 2015
2:25 PM
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I don't have FB issues very often. I do have a VC on my mics. Have developed a sense of what gear to use to suit the venue. I rarely mic my amp. Only pedal is my trusty Arion SAD-1 delay. Big stage, big sound needs a big amp. High gain amps are touchy FB wise but I never cut gain structure more then 2 steps, tube sub wise. You loose cut and definition. Tweed Bassman, SR,
Fender 75 will be heard even with a lead guy with a Twin. A good tight cup and proper placement of notes are helpful also. Microphonic tubes will cause feedback no matter what you do.
My #1 tip to reduce FB, DO NOT stand in front of your amp!!! ...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Jan 27, 2015 2:27 PM
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garry
556 posts
Jan 27, 2015
3:45 PM
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Having a wireless mic makes it a lot easier to stay out of your amp's way.
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PeterG
33 posts
Jan 27, 2015
8:25 PM
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Finally broke down and ordered a Kinder AFB+ after reading everything I could find on it. If you can eliminate 95% of feedback with technique and a good amp, the Kinder takes care of the other 5%, for me anyway. I can set it and forget it and if I hear any feedback at all, just dial it out. Haven't tried it with a small amp yet, but don't feel the need when I can use the Kinder and a big amp to get the tone I want at any volume. I don't feel it unduly distorts my tone. It enables me to use amp settings that might otherwise be unavailable due to feedback. Should have ordered it sooner, but didn't hurt to learn to improve technique without it first.
It gets rid of that niggling fear that if you push your volume or turn up the tone or presence just a little too much or bend down to adjust the amp with your mike in hand, feedback will arise.
Last Edited by PeterG on Jan 28, 2015 5:23 AM
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harpoon_man
87 posts
Jan 28, 2015
5:52 AM
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The only times I've had real feedback problems were when a sound man put too much harp in the monitors. Factors that I think help prevent feedback are resonant playing, cupping technique, and tube substitutions. I occasionally play at a loud jam where I want to be sure to be able to compete with multiple loud guitarists, so I picked up a Squeal Killer anti-feedback device and have been happy with that.
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MindTheGap
520 posts
Jan 29, 2015
3:54 AM
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Thanks for all these. Glad to hear that good technique can overcome things when playing. When you are not playing through, and at the bad end of things, and feedback starts as you cup the mic - what then?
I had a read of the Squeal Killer - does anyone know what it does? I took from what I read the first stage of a custom harp amp, and benefits from that design.
Any practical experiences with the Harp Shield? Superbee's noted.
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TetonJohn
237 posts
Jan 29, 2015
9:48 AM
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I think there has been some discussion of both the Shield and Killer -- suggest google search on those and include "modernblues" as one of the search terms. (There may be a search function here at MBH forum, but I have never looked for it.)
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Barley Nectar
626 posts
Jan 29, 2015
2:23 PM
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A VC will help. Shut down mic when not in use. I do this automaticly at the end of a run. Also allows you to sneak up your level as you go thru a lead. I know some folks don't like VC's but I find them to be essential for flexibility.
I struggled with feedback when I first started playing amplified ('76 Fender Deluxe Reverb and a Shure 707A). Went so far in my research as to call Shure and talk to an EE there. Stage experience is the best teacher, in time most seasoned players learn how to control FB. Good luck...BN
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Greg Heumann
2940 posts
Jan 29, 2015
8:31 PM
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"gain is supposed to be the enemy"
There are TWO issues of huge importance.
Too much gain makes an amp hard to control between too quiet and jumping to feedback. Lowering the gain lets you play closer to the amp's max power potential because it doesn't "run away" at the slightest provocation. But that only ensures that you are able to use all of the power the amp has.
The second issue is power itself. Mostly we're talking about watts here, but it does have to do with moving air - so the amount of speaker surface area is also important. Remember it takes TEN TIMES the power to get just twice as loud (10dB). The difference between a 5W amp and an 18W amp is not that great. The difference between a 5W amp and a 50W amp is ... 10dB. At stage volume levels, that 10dB might be the difference between 100dB (which is already very, very loud) and 110dB (which is louder still) - but you might only be able to hear the bigger amp on stage. I have experienced all of this first hand - and the experience has proven that the science is correct. You can't defy the laws of physics.
If you're going to play with a lone guitar player and his Fender Champ - you don't need a huge amp. But IF you are playing with a 5 piece electric jam band - you're going to need a lot of power (AND the amp has to be well set up gain wise so you can USE that power.) There are many points in between.
You can't bring a knife to a gun fight.
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/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Jan 29, 2015 8:32 PM
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SuperBee
2377 posts
Jan 30, 2015
2:46 AM
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thats the truth...i've read the Greg Heumann explanation of gain and feedback many times and after reading it about 50 times i began to understand the truth of it and the implications. i dont know why it took so long to assimilate, because now it seems such a simple thing...a few years of experience and re-reading everything one can find about the subject probably helped
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