MindTheGap
497 posts
Jan 19, 2015
12:49 PM
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Originally I started with the normal C harp, then got a Bb as so I could play along with Adam's videos, where he uses it a lot. Then when I got a set, I gravitated to the lower keys. I preferred the mellow sound and feel of the A, and spent most of my time on that. That's the one I carried around.
But...after playing a lot on the A, I found that playing the higher keys seemed harder (tight, harder to control bends, less subtle, shrill). But because of the music I been studying lately I've returned to the higher harps and really enjoying them again.
What I've found is that after practising on the high keys, the lower keys seem a lot easier to control (bends, vibrato, the whole thing). It's like running on sand, then moving onto a track.
Interested to hear if this is common knowledge (I've not read it) or anyone else's experience. I went to see a teacher who had noted that some of his students found it easier to play (and bend in particular) on high than low keys, others vice versa.
Maybe other people find the opposite effect?
I only have up to an F, but thinking of getting a High G with the purpose of making playing the F easier.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 19, 2015 12:50 PM
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Danny Starwars
11 posts
Jan 19, 2015
1:05 PM
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I think it's a pretty common phenomenon - my experience has been that lately I've been favouring Special 20s but have a couple of Pro Harps about. I take the Pro Harps on walks and practice on them, and coming back to the Special 20s is pretty amazing.
I think it's because the Pro Harps are as easy to get notes from as street directions to a brother from a nun, whereas the Special 20 is very easy to get the notes from (all of this is IMO; I know different people favour different models).
Your running illustration probably nails it; practising under conditions that make things harder really put pressure on the muscles/technique, which when put in more ideal situations are free to let rip.
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Rgsccr
306 posts
Jan 19, 2015
1:43 PM
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Here is another reason to work on higher keys - at least it has been for me. The issue that I had with higher keys - F in particular - is that I was sounding squeaky. Since our band plays several tunes in the key of C where an F (played well) would sound good in second position, Tore Down, Have You Ever Loved a Woman, I decided to work on that problem. While I am not sure if it is completely solved, I think most of the time I avoid it, and working on it has been valuable in terms of my overall skill and control. Plus, I like the sound of an F played well.
Last Edited by Rgsccr on Jan 19, 2015 1:45 PM
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jbone
1864 posts
Jan 19, 2015
3:28 PM
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If you want to get well versed on harmonica- pun intended!- eventually you work with all keys. Also eventually you make decisions on what keys to keep in a gig kit. Some guys/gals have every one, some just a more basic 4 or 7 key kit, etc etc.
I have found very good use for low F and low D, also Bb and Eb and low Eb. I hope to have a Bb chromatic soon to go with my regular and low C, and G, chromatics. But I have had and worked with E and F# as well, two of the highest. I keep a regular F in my case and it sees a mic sometimes as well.
To me the idea is to be well prepared to handle whatever may be expected of me on a stage or in a studio. Which a guy like Howard Levy can do it all on a single 10 hole C harp. I need a bit more!
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SuperBee
2347 posts
Jan 19, 2015
5:44 PM
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i know the issue. when ive been playing an A for a while and pick up a D its tough to get the 3 hole bends accurate. i have to really focus on whats going on...then having worked with that for a while, when you return to something which seems to have a little more tolerance it seems much easier. actually though, it still requires as much concentration to be accurate...sometimes i find myself shallow on the low bends at first when i go back to playing a G, say. i think practicing on low keys is beneficial because it teaches you a larger range of movement, and high keys teach you finer movement. its the challenge, or the struggle, which is important to the learning process. i think my experience with alt tuning is somewhat related. i worried that playing so-called Country Tuned harps would mess up my habits but actually i found it caused me to focus more on the harp layout and led me to learn much more about scales and chords available on standard tuned harps...breaking my carefully acquired habits was a good thing
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Danny Starwars
18 posts
Jan 19, 2015
5:50 PM
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Different keys are like all the girls you ever dated. Technically the same beast, but the differences in how you handle them ...
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My YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ2_8CnjaiNLcPke4gWQ65A
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kudzurunner
5259 posts
Jan 19, 2015
6:45 PM
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This is a good topic. I think the difference between an F harp and an A harp is sort of like the difference between a soprano sax and a tenor sax. I don't play sax, but I've played with, and chatted with, sax players who were expected, in the touring Broadway show I was with, to play both instruments. Doing so without missing a beat was part of their professional training.
So it's good for a serious harp player to work out on the full range of harps, and make the necessary adjustments.
At this point, after 40 years, I can pick up any harp from A through F, play once or twice through the blues scale, and be centered in that particular key. But the G still takes me a moment longer to get used to--it's the baritone, for a guy used to the tenor-through-soprano range--and anything lower than that is a woodshed proposition rather than something I'm acclimated to.
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A440
315 posts
Jan 20, 2015
3:14 AM
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Over the past year I have really been enjoying high key harps. It started when our band wrote a new blues-rock song in F#. I started playing crossharp on a B. The bandleader immediately asked me to try it in first position on an F#. I initially stayed at the bottom end of the harp. He then encouraged me to move up to the high end. At first it was difficult and sounded a bit skreechy... But after awhile I got the hang of it, my playing got fluid and my tone got better. The song is now a highlight of our live shows, with my signature F# harp parts cutting through the mix.
I now use F and F# a lot more, The SP20 sounds great in the high keys, with its darker voice. I have a Lee Oskar in HG, which I plan to replace with a Seydel Favorite in HG, and maybe pick up a Favorite in HA as well, out of curiousity (I am thinking of switching from a regular A to HA for a section, mid-song in Crossroads, just to add some intensity).
To answer your question: yes, using high harps has made me a better player across all the keys. "Highly" recommended.
Now back to those difficult hole 3 bends on my Low D harp...
Last Edited by A440 on Jan 20, 2015 2:43 PM
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MindTheGap
498 posts
Jan 20, 2015
11:20 PM
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Yes, I suppose the wider point is that you need to work out on all the keys. And in hindsight I made a bit of a mistake majoring on the lower ones because I like them better at the time.
My specific observation was that, for me, working the higher keys seems to actively help with playing the lower keys, but not the other way round.
That said, I do get Superbee's point about the potential danger of shallow bends on the G though. I have to actively remember to do the 'big jaw drop' move on the 1D bend.
Danny I like your idea of having a more difficult harp to practice on, maybe this is taking the idea to the next level. In fact I have two F harps - they both play but one is harder work. Following your comment I'm going to practise on the more tricky one. One is a SP20, one is a CrossHarp that I received as a present. Guess which one it is.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 20, 2015 11:22 PM
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MindTheGap
499 posts
Jan 20, 2015
11:22 PM
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...getting whimsical now, but the customisers could produce a special 'training harp' where everything plays properly but you have to work hard for it.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 20, 2015 11:22 PM
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Harmlessonica
22 posts
Jan 21, 2015
3:05 AM
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I think we benefit from all keys to some extent. I have noticed through practice on low octave harmonicas that going back to playing a higher key seems a breeze - not just from a responsiveness standpoint, but they're also less physically demanding.
This could just be that my overall technique has improved over the months, but I feel the low tunings definitely help improve breathing from your diaphragm, and make one aware of the airstream column that's so important for good tone.
They're also useful for clearing your lungs of excess secretions, so I've heard...
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MindTheGap
500 posts
Jan 21, 2015
3:14 AM
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Harmlessonica - You mean the low, low tunings? I don't have any but I've read they need a lot of air. I can see it'd be a relief going back to a C after that.
Actually, I don't have any excess secretions in my lungs. At least, I didn't think so. :)
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 21, 2015 3:35 AM
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CarlA
652 posts
Jan 21, 2015
5:27 AM
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I think too many harp players "hide" behind the key C and lower harps. The higher keyed harps will expose your vulnerabilities and weaknesses as a player.
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Danny Starwars
22 posts
Jan 21, 2015
6:54 AM
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MindTheGap - a harp that improves performance by making you have to work hard? That's the Pro Harp.
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My YouTube Channel
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQ2_8CnjaiNLcPke4gWQ65A
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nowmon
5 posts
Jan 23, 2015
1:41 PM
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High to low harps are the same as playing low area to high area on guitar,you got to tightin` up !when you play high notes the space is tighter,so you got to squeeze it a little it`s science !!!
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MindTheGap
507 posts
Jan 24, 2015
2:37 AM
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nowmon - that's a good analogy with the guitar. I guess what's interesting about the harmonica was when I discovered the big difference in feel between keys that are close together. Like A and Bb. I suppose that comes from the special nature of each hole, and so where the notes lay out. With a guitar, there's a big difference between one end of the fretboard and the other, but there it's smooth gradation between any two frets.
Maybe if a person played just 1st position, without bends, the differences between keys might not seem so pronounced.
Danny - yes, well I have this MS CrossHarp which I think is the same kind of thing. Do they all play the same, the ones with interchangeable parts? I've only got the one.
It seems much less trouble to get heard over a band playing the high keys.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 24, 2015 2:41 AM
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SuperBee
2351 posts
Jan 24, 2015
3:47 AM
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"It seems much less trouble to get heard over a band playing the high keys"
i've heard that before, but it hasn't been my experience. i suspect its true up to a point, but when i played in a really loud band the f harp was the one which was lost in the mix..or perhaps its my hearing...
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MindTheGap
508 posts
Jan 24, 2015
9:30 AM
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Superbee - Interesting. It seems so much depends on circumstances. From what you've written elsewhere, seems like your band was really, really loud! Might it depend on what the guitars are doing, as they cover such a relatively wide range of pitch?
From my limited experience, I wonder at how people can get the harmonica loud enough in such a setting to be heard properly at all, without being plagued with feedback. Clearly they can though.
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SuperBee
2352 posts
Jan 24, 2015
1:04 PM
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i wondered if there may have been some noise cancelling effects at times. i often noticed problems hearing the F harp on stage while i played in that band.
after it broke up i formed a more 'trad' blues band with somewhat calmer levels, and i agree the F probably did cut more clearly than the A and G. i tried a LoF occasionally, but there was just no way, even at the more moderate levels
probably OT, but re playing in loud circumstances there are a lot of variables. if people are sensible they keep the stage volume reasonable which allows use of PA for harp, but when its really loud on stage the PA needs to be very well-managed...which is unlikely because if things were being well-managed it wouldn't be so loud up there. i played a lot of tight stages standing close to a hard-hitting drummer. you have to know how to get the most out of your amp, and if the soundie wants to mike the amp and also tries to boost your on stage sound with foldback you have to stay aware of where the wedge is and keep your mic out of the zone where you can pick up either source...can be hectic...the worst i had was a large-ish stage where they insisted on providing foldback and wouldnt let me turn my amp up enough to hear it on stage..i basically could not be on stage that night. the only spot i could find which allowed me to hear without feed back was right alongside the FOH tower...my ear forward enough to hear the FOH sound and my mic shielded enough to not pick it up...the next night i just told them i wanted to use my amp as monitor and no foldback on my side of the stage. that allowed me to wander around on stage almost as much as i pleased...it was a big stage and i was able to set up away from drums and other amps. unfortunately a lousy gig, but thats a different tale.
i always struggled until i got a 410 Deville. i rarely use it now but it made a great improvement to my onstage audibility. not something to lug to jams to play a couple of improvised choruses though.
Last Edited by SuperBee on Jan 24, 2015 4:25 PM
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JustFuya
710 posts
Jan 24, 2015
4:13 PM
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I experienced the opposite effect. When I switched almost exclusively to another instrument I stopped keeping my harp set current. I always seemed to have E harps available while I nursed or replaced Cs & Gs. Getting back into it I find the lower keys windy while the E's are more responsive and therefore quicker. Admittedly, I have had a wide 'gap' of ignorance to fill. But I imagine it has a lot to do with what you are accustomed to.
I read some recent threads where people were buying sets and had no use for the E that came with it. Playing along with recordings I haven't found a lot of use for the key in any genre but I still play the hell out of it. Fast and crisp noodles. I will make the ears of an audience pucker tho.
Bb is my current favorite.
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MindTheGap
511 posts
Jan 25, 2015
3:00 AM
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Superbee - re your OT, I'm definitely interested in hearing about those experiences around the trials and technicals of being heard without feedback. I'll ask in another thread.
JustFuya - Ah ha. I did wonder if that was the case: just playing highs eventually spoils you for low keys after some time. What I reported could be a short-term benefit, but if you then don't go and exercise on the low keys they will seem foreign (shallow bends etc.)
I draw the conclusion that you probably need to practice regularly on a range of keys to keep everything working properly.
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