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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Bending notes on chromatic?
Bending notes on chromatic?
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WinslowYerxa
750 posts
Jan 08, 2015
2:04 PM
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The other thread was getting too long, so I'm starting this one specifically about bending notes on the chromatic.
Below is a sound clip of the same three-semitone bend played on two different fully valved chromatics. Listen and see if you can tell which has long-slot reeds and which one has short-slot reeds.
Why do this? Chromaticblues affirms his belief that long-slot reeds help bending and expresses surprise that I didn't "know" this.
Here's what I know for certain from experience. Two different chromatics, same model, out of the same manufacturer's shipping carton, can be completely different in how they play, including note bending. They have the same reed dimensions, so the difference must be in manufacturing, assembly, and adjustment.
Here's the sound clip:
Cherry Pink Taffy
Can you tell which harp has long or short slot reeds? Any difference in bending flexibility or even in overall sound? Once I have some responses I'll post the answer.
The story behind the lick used in the clip: You probably recognize it as the opening lick to "Cherry Pink and Apple Blossom White." In Perez Prado's original 1955 recording, trumpeter Billy Regis bent that note down a fifth, from Bb to Eb. Later cover versions from Harry James on trumpet and Jerry Murad with the Harmonicats emulated this same bend. However, Kim Wilson didn't play it in his version with the Thunderbirds because on an unvalved diatonic the note, Blow 6, won't bend down. Here I play it in C and bend the G in Blow 7 down three semitones to E.
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Winslow
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 09, 2015 8:02 PM
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the_happy_honker
201 posts
Jan 09, 2015
4:45 AM
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Some of my homebrew overblow harps will do single reed bends three semitones or more, but I find it has more to do with how careful I am about the air-tightness and reed work, not whether it is long- or short-slot. My Suzuki Promasters and Firebreaths (short slot) overbend just as well as my Crossovers.
A lot of the negative qualities associated with short-slot reeds goes perhaps back to the frustrations many had in the past trying to get Lee Oskars to overblow. Lee Oskars were short-slot and Hohners were long-slot, so that must be the difference, right? But then other short-slot harps came out that overblow just fine, like the above-mentioned Promasters, but by then the idea had hardened into dogma.
One thing I do associate with my short-slot Suzuki harps is what hvyj calls a more "focused" tone as compared to Hohners. Whether this is actually caused by the shorter slot or by some other factor, I don't know.
As for the recording, the differences I hear are a slight hiccup at the bottom of the deep bend on the second instrument, as well as a slightly softer tone. if Winslow had asked if the two renditions were made on the same or different instruments, I would have accepted that they were made on the same instrument. The differences in the two could easily be ascribed to player variation, imho.
But if I am asked to make a choice, I would say the first instrument is short-slot and the second is the long-slot.
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chromaticblues
1649 posts
Jan 09, 2015
9:24 AM
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Everything sounds the same to me except the the bend at the beginning. The first example doesn't sound very smooth and started to cut out. I don't know if that was you or the harp. The second example was a very nice example of a chromatic bend.
@ Winslow
Yes I am surprised this isn't common knowledge among top notch chrom players like yourself. Maybe most people just don't care?
Is it audible why there is a difference? Of course not!
Your the only person that is going to know that.
As far as your statement about stock harps, yes your correct. Although my comment on anything "out of the box". I don't relying on the manufacturers or anyone else to make my harps play what consider well enough for me to enjoy playing and not thinking about the harp while I'm playing. I haven't played a stock harp in years so I can't make any scientific assumptions on any of that, but I believe you most likely correct about that.
What I'm talking about is doing a non-biased comparative analysis.
Start with harps from the same manufacturer from the same period (so they have the same reeds made from the same material).
Because if your talking about different manufacturers then you have to take into account the thickness of the reed, the width, the different material, thickness of the reedplate and etc etc!
Too many variables that most certainly do not know the answers to.
I'm sure there are a number of good ways to do this, but the one that comes to mind is cpmpare a Hohner 270 and a 270 deluxe.
The tricky part would be to figure out a way to eliminate human error/intervention into the results. Both harps would have to be set up by the same person trying to get the playability equal!
This is starting sound like a good project for you Winslow at a SPAH convention. It's a lot of work, but possible with right people (non-bias, competent people in each phase of the experiment.
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CarlA
647 posts
Jan 09, 2015
11:59 AM
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I no little about the chromatic, but I remember sending mine in for repair to a well know chromatic repair tech who told me that chromatics are not meant to bend, and players shouldn't attempt to.
Don't know if this is true or not?
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WinslowYerxa
754 posts
Jan 09, 2015
2:18 PM
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Chromatics not meant to bend?
Neither were diatonics.
Yet both can do it, and if you do it right it doesn't hurt the harmonica, despite what's often said.
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Winslow
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 09, 2015 8:02 PM
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WinslowYerxa
755 posts
Jan 09, 2015
2:20 PM
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Several interesting points, Kevin.
The comb materials debate has been tried twice at SPAH. If someone were interested enough to organize a long slot/short slot test (or any other comparative test) and get it scheduled as a seminar, set up the harps, find test players, and so on, it could be done.
Any takers?
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Winslow
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 09, 2015 8:02 PM
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groyster1
2732 posts
Jan 09, 2015
6:03 PM
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I have 2 10 hole chromatics.....reeds are way stiffer than diatonics.....best to play 3rd position on them....but try and bend 2 and 3draw one half step?
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WinslowYerxa
756 posts
Jan 09, 2015
7:38 PM
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@Groyster1 - Which models are they? If they're the (Hohner) Koch 980, they're completely unvalved and thus rather leaky. If they're the 10-hole Hohner Chromonica they're fully valved and very airtight (usually) but may not be gapped well for bending.
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Winslow
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 09, 2015 8:02 PM
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WinslowYerxa
757 posts
Jan 09, 2015
7:52 PM
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Here's a track I recorded with a half-valved chromatic, which gives you full dual-reed bends on the draw notes and single-reed bends on the blow notes. All the draw notes bend one semitone in the tuning I used. I was not going specifically for bending effects on this tune; I just happened to use them.
The tune is Duke Ellington's Solitude. It's not a blues but it's certainly bluesy and I was going through a period with plenty to be blue about at the time.
Solitude on half-valved whole tone chromatic
The harp I used is tuned to a whole tone scale, so you only need to learn 4 key positions to play in all 12 keys. But it produces a weird scale and chords unless you use the slide, so it's not intuitive (well, it is once you accept its premise and start to delve into it, but tastes pretty strange going in). I built one out of a 10-hole Koch slide harp in G when I had a student who plays that tuning (he's a physicist and also tunes his guitar to E-A-D-G-C-F, so that all the intervals between the strings are consistent).
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Winslow
Harmonica For Dummies, Second Edition with tons of new stuff
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jan 09, 2015 10:03 PM
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GMaj7
589 posts
Jan 09, 2015
8:55 PM
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Hey Winslow,
That was really cool stuff..
I'm going to listen to it again.
I liked it.. Very nice..
Good to see this "OOTB" playing ..
Really cool..
That's the first time I've actually heard someone play WHOLE TONE chromatic.. at least that I'm aware...
Built a few of 'em for folks.. though..
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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