mlefree
237 posts
Dec 14, 2014
1:40 PM
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I've been going to an open mic' for fun and people have taken to my playing. So people like to call me up to play with them. Great!
Only problem is everyone seems to like to play in the key of C all the time. I hate playing 2nd position in the key of C! Normal F harps are just too squeaky for my ears and I don't think I'm alone. About the only thing I like about playing 2nd position on a regular F is that it cuts well and can easily be heard through the mix.
Which beings me to Low F's. I love the way they sound acoustically but as soon as I bring one into an amplified situation with a band, they get lost in the mix. This gives rise to other problems when I try to play too hard. That makes it very difficult to not bend or play on key when you are bending. I love playing 1st position melodies in the key of C, but lots of times 1st position just doesn't fly.
So I'm just curious as to whether others share my 2nd position Key of C Blues? And, if so, how do y'all get around or compensate for them?
Thanks,
Michelle
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A440
265 posts
Dec 14, 2014
1:48 PM
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Michelle, Have you tried 3rd position on a Bb harp? Depends on the song, but sometimes works well.
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GamblersHand
549 posts
Dec 14, 2014
1:54 PM
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Also I find a country-tuned Bb useful as 3rd position becomes more major ie. I can play the third major, blue-third, or fully minor to suit.
Pure 3rd can sometimes sound a little too dark, even on a blues song in a major key
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mlefree
238 posts
Dec 14, 2014
2:07 PM
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I hadn't thought of 3rd position. Usually it sounds too minor-ish to go with a major key tune, which is what people like to play in. Gets deathly boring after the 3rd tune so I'll give Bb a try. One of my favorite keys anyhow.
Country tuned BB eh? Hadn't through of that one either.
Thanks for the ideas fellas,
Michelle
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Last Edited by mlefree on Dec 14, 2014 2:21 PM
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6SN7
495 posts
Dec 14, 2014
4:57 PM
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I have a similar situation with my band so I bought a Bb chromatic!
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timeistight
1667 posts
Dec 14, 2014
10:00 PM
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Sometimes I'll comp and play one solo chorus on the low F and then switch to the regular F for the second chorus.
Third on a Bb can be nice, too. And, of course, you can try a tune in first. I think the main is to keep switching it up to avoid ear fatigue from too much squeaky F harp.
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jbone
1831 posts
Dec 15, 2014
3:14 AM
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We just recorded a song in C and I did use a low F. Volume was very closely kept though. We recorded in the living room and it was our project so I had control.
Live situations are a bit different and difficult. I seldom hit jams these days since I value my hearing and many are just too loud. I used to cringe when I saw a guitarist with custom earplugs. Or a big drum kit.
I may work a deal on a Bb chromatic before long.
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jiceblues
345 posts
Dec 15, 2014
4:01 AM
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I don't play with drummers and loud electric guitars , so i can use my Low F .
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Dragonbreath
31 posts
Dec 15, 2014
7:24 AM
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I prefer to play in 5th instead of third on minor blues songs, that would be Ab key harp for C. Try it out if you haven't!
Also, in some aspects it can be more important to have harps that are set up well in the higher keys, so you minimize risks of squeels and have easy playable harps.
Maybe try a customized harp in F?
Lastly, if you're running short of inspiration and motivation for playing the F harp, just watch this vid again!
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Martin
751 posts
Dec 15, 2014
2:54 PM
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I understand perfectly your reluctance to blues in the key of C. The standard F is to high -- I rarely play that one -- and the low F is to low and undistinct. Also have never had a high F that I really liked.
Strangely enough I´m not at odds with playing an E harp ...
For blues in C I use 1 st or 3d positions. 2nd if there´s a required riff or something like that. 12th can be an option at times, if it´s more of a major, or jazzy, feel to it.
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Gnarly
1182 posts
Dec 15, 2014
4:25 PM
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This is a tuning that uses holes 1-8 as holes 3-10--
The video is for a high G hybrid, but I also have an F in the kit tuned this way . . .
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Michael Rubin
1002 posts
Dec 16, 2014
5:50 AM
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I suggest learning a C chromatic in C. This is definitely a problem. Here's my moves:
High F
Low F
C
Bb
C Chromatic
and most importantly:
another instrument altogether. Mandolin solved my C problem!
I worked with Ruthie Foster for about a year and a half. She mostly plays in C. I actually complained to her about it, which I should not have done, perhaps I'd still be with her. She actually loved the high F and I would deliberately play a lot in holes 7 thru 10 and she would imitate the squeaks with her singing.
One thing I discovered, as long as you are not ON the mic, the audiences love the high F. I think the aversion is just a harp player's thing.
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Gnarly
1183 posts
Dec 16, 2014
8:26 AM
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I am not fond of playing in C on a C chromatic (but sometimes it makes things easier).
Another solution is Brendan's Power Chromatic tuning, a diatonic tuning based on IV6 blow and V6 draw--I use it a fair amount.
Do you think the Hohner 365 SBS in F would work?
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 16, 2014 8:29 AM
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groyster1
2721 posts
Dec 16, 2014
8:35 AM
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surprised you are with people playing in C so often...most people with guitars I know play in A and E....some G....wish more played in F but know they need the capo
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harpwrench
939 posts
Dec 16, 2014
8:56 AM
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I dig playing a Bb in third and it's a great thing to change things up if playing in one key a lot, but I don't see it totally addressing the squeaky or too-low to cut sound of the two F harps. You're just moving a lot of the same notes to different holes, and give/take a few on each end, right?
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Last Edited by harpwrench on Dec 16, 2014 9:02 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh
1065 posts
Dec 16, 2014
9:37 AM
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If it is not a blues tune.....
... and you may be surprised how many tunes do not need the blues scale....
Take a G harp and play 12th position. The easy way is start on 5 draw as the root. If you are good at bending accurately, the 2 draw full bend is the lower root note.
You can have a lot of fun with holes 4 through 10, while avoiding the 7 draw. It's a lot like 3rd position.
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mlefree
240 posts
Dec 16, 2014
10:44 AM
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Wow! Thanks for all the keen insights and innovative ideas, folks.
Unfortunately, most seem to involve a ~lot~ of hard work, for me at least. Learning an entirely new instrument is a non-starter. I've my hands full with the things I want to accomplish with the little harps. I don't really like chrom's that much anyway. And as much as I admire those who can do it, learning a new tuning is very difficult for this old dog. I have enough work to do getting intimate with my Paddy Richters...
Though I am the first to admit its limitations, I've been a 1st, 2nd & 3rd position player for years and that's gotten me by. I can see though, that learning 5th or 12th are solutions that could pay other dividends into the future. And I think I'll work on some 1st position approach using a C harp, which is a key that I do like a lot.
So, no magic bullet. I was hoping for manna from heaven a suppose. :^)
Thanks again!
Michelle
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email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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harpwrench
940 posts
Dec 16, 2014
10:50 AM
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Oh yeah there's a magic bullet, but it weighs a lot more than that Princeton:)
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A440
266 posts
Dec 16, 2014
10:59 AM
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I concur with Michelle. Simple solutions are best. I play a fair bit of C songs, and use all 4 approaches, depending on the song: C, F, LF, Bb.
But honestly I don't find my F-harp too squeaky - its an ootb SP20, and sounds sweet, bends nicely on the low holes and is almost horn-like on the high holes. I also find high harps work well with wah-wah hand effects.
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CarlA
638 posts
Dec 16, 2014
5:58 PM
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F harp is one of the best! If you take advantage of octave playing and double stops it's not bad at all. I find that those who sound shrill playing an F harp will sound relatively shrill in all keys. Tongue blocking also helps. Special 20 F harps, as mentioned earlier, are about as mellow a sound as one can get. If your shrieking with those, than it's probably ones acoustic tone that's suffering.
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groyster1
2722 posts
Dec 17, 2014
7:50 AM
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an F harp is my least favorite harp....most favorite is Bb....it seems just right
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mlefree
242 posts
Dec 17, 2014
9:07 AM
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Joe, that Princeton went to a good home. I'm now toting an RP 150 instead and my back is thanking me. And, I'm trying to think of a magic bullet that weighs much more than 35 lbs... Jason Ricci? Madcat? :^)
Anyway I've decided to sit down and really spend some time with an F harp or two, take 'em apart and do a few things to the reeds. (Flat is where it's at, eh, Joe?) I've not really done that to these F's prolly 'cuz I have a natural tendency to avoid them so I have high hopes. (Maybe I have avoided them too much?!?)
While I have y'all's eyes on this thread I'd like to ask one question that has been on my mind that impacts how I'll work on these F harps. I've come to dislike the overtones that are cause by embossing the reeds on most any harp but for those keys that are already treading on being painful to listen to I think it is even more problematic (and yes I am a TB'er, and yes I am quite pleased with my acoustic tone being a long-time disciple of Phil Wiggins and Grant Dermody). I use Richard Sleigh's tools, book and videos, as well as other custom tools like Sjoeberg's Ultimate Embossing Tool in this case. I use light box and a 10x Optivisor with another 10x ocular if needed so I think I am doing it right. I imagine Joe and Andrew and other harmonica mechanical magicians can pull off embossing without those ugly (to me) overtones but not I. I wouldn't know about custom harps; I've always worked on my own instruments going back to the Musselwhite, Glover, Schackner and Tate book days.
So I guess the question is, do y'all think embossing the reeds on these Marine Band and Special 20 F harps of mine would be a good idea?
Muchas Gracias one more time,
Michelle
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Last Edited by mlefree on Dec 17, 2014 9:09 AM
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Baker
378 posts
Dec 17, 2014
9:20 AM
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It's a strange one this. If you think about it, it shouldn't matter which diatonic harmonica you use to play in C, the notes, and therefore I assume the physical properties of the reeds (length, thickness etc.) that correspond to those notes should be the same too – Although some maybe on opposite sides of the blow / draw divide.
What I mean is the reed for the C note on an F harmonica – 2Draw should be exactly the same as the C note on the Bb – 4Draw and the same as the note on a C harmonica – 4 blow. If you are playing the same scale this should be true for most other notes in that scale (excluding the bent / over bent notes I guess.
So logically there shouldn't be a difference in the "shrillness" or the ease of playing the note. I too don't feel as comfortable on the higher pitched harps, but this thought always crosses my mind every time I think about it.
What is it that we're doing to makes things seem easier to play 3rd position on a Bb, compared to 2nd position on an F.
Is it psychological?
Is there something mechanical going on?
Is it the need to bend in order to hit the minor/blue 3rd on the F harp.
Is there a difference in the physical properties of the reeds across different harps?
Last Edited by Baker on Dec 17, 2014 9:22 AM
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blingty
58 posts
Dec 17, 2014
9:24 AM
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Michelle,
If you don't want to test out different tunings, you probably won't want to try this, but I had the same issue with taking a solo on the track listed here. It's not blues but the same approach to getting something expressive but not too high and shrill applies. I had tried a high F and low F diatonics on this track and went with a chromatic in diminished tuning for the solo in C major.
I do tend to like low F though, as well as the Bb diatonic.
The unison line with the other instruments is played in 12th position on my Irish Fiddle tuning (playing it that way is very like 12th position on solo chromatic). The melody from 0:40 is 3rd position on diminished chromatic, also very like 12th position (or 3rd on solo!).
Last Edited by blingty on Dec 17, 2014 9:25 AM
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mlefree
243 posts
Dec 17, 2014
10:09 AM
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Baker, it's not the lower holes that bother me so much. It's holes, say 6-10. I feel like I'm playing the equivalent of a 4-5 hole harmonica when I play a F in 2nd position. I don't want to enter the world of those upper notes when I'm playing amplified.
Thanks,
Michelle
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email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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mlefree
244 posts
Dec 17, 2014
10:12 AM
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blingty, I am 64 years old and going in for surgery Monday. Not enough days left to take up a new instrument let alone a special tuning. I'm having too much fun with my Richter Diatonics.
BTW, I do like your playing on that cut. Very expressive work on that chrom'. :)
Michelle
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email: mlefree@silverwingleather.com
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Gnarly
1184 posts
Dec 17, 2014
10:28 AM
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Do you think the Hohner 365 SBS in F would work?
Unless I am mistaken, it is a 10 (well, 11) hole F RICHTER TUNED diatonic with an extra octave on the bottom, tuned like holes 1-3 on a low F.
Anyone here have any experience with that unit?
I bought a couple of SBS 365 harps back in the 90's and have come to appreciate the virtues of the model--but I always modify them! The SBS in F might work for Michelle's purposes . . .
Guitar Center has them in stock (I think) for less than a bill.
Merry Christmas, be good to yourself! If I was playing blues in C a lot, I would think this would be worth checking out.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 17, 2014 12:31 PM
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blingty
59 posts
Dec 17, 2014
11:24 AM
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Thanks, Michelle. I see where you're coming from. My 92 year old aunt tells me "it's great to be young like you" - I guess cos to her, I am (relatively speaking!) Never too late... but I totally understand sticking to something that works so fair play to you.
Good luck with the surgery.
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Gnarly
1185 posts
Dec 17, 2014
1:14 PM
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Here is an idea (all mine, any resemblance blah blah blah)--
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
F3 A3 C4 F4 A4 C5 F5 A5 C6 F6 A6 C7
G3 C4 E4 G4 C5 E5 G5 Bb5 D6 E6 G6 Bb6
Sorry for the spacing--
Seydel should be able to build these, you lose a few holes on top and get an extra octave like holes 1-2.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 17, 2014 1:17 PM
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mlefree
245 posts
Dec 17, 2014
1:48 PM
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Gary, I had several 365s and only the C had that octave lower than the normal C (traded to Dane for a handful of Turbolids years back). The rest had the normal F and G tuning on that low end and went up an octave above normal for the upper end. Talk about squeakers! I can't imagine what you'd do with one.
And thanks for the kind wishes, blingty.
Michelle
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Last Edited by mlefree on Dec 17, 2014 1:49 PM
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Gnarly
1186 posts
Dec 17, 2014
2:15 PM
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Is that the one that had the bottom cover plate hammered out? I love the plates on that one.
And as far as what I would do with one--I always have fun figuring out what to do with one.
BTW, it's worth mentioning a job I did for jnorem--it's in the archives (actually has been within 6 months).
He likes the harp to go one hole lower (I am sure Brendan invented this first). So the F harp would start on C blow, E draw.
It's not too hard to do if you know how--start with a lower key, course . . .
And of course I will build you one . . .
Thanks for reading this far!
Last Edited by Gnarly on Dec 17, 2014 4:05 PM
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harpwrench
941 posts
Dec 17, 2014
2:33 PM
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Yes the reed plates need to be flat because that's the reference used for setting the reed profiles. Comb flat too. If it's a sandwich. SP20 combs are flat enough to never cause issues. The importance of this is to retain the integrity of your profiles when it's assembled. I don't use or like the UST. Just grab a small socket, I usually use a 7mm. Emboss very lightly what you can get without sending the reed deep into the slot. If the reed isn't centered, center it. Using a UST to "fix" off center reeds is a waste of time. Any time you smack a rivet or replace one with a screw to center it, flatness needs to be addressed again. As far as embossing tightness, air is thicker than light. Using too bright of light and/or too much magnification agrivates the shrillness problem. Blue sky on a sunny day is my favorite backlight to give you an idea about how bright my light box is. All said and done the reed profiles both milled and the "curve" have a huge influence on the timbre.
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mlefree
246 posts
Dec 17, 2014
5:14 PM
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Wow folks, Joe's last post is a veritable Masterclass in embossing by a true authority!
Thank you so much to this insights and little "secrets," Joe. A real gem of a post, I shall memorize it word for word.
Michelle
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Sherwin
184 posts
Dec 17, 2014
7:19 PM
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I'mwoodshedding SBW #1's Good Morning Little Schoolgirl,so, happy to see this thread.
I was having trouble tongue blocking the bent 3,4 draw on my stock F, so I bought another 'F' M.B., arced and gapped it, tuned it ( to 7 limit JI) once so far.(Had to center about five or six reeds), cleaned off any burrs on reeds, hand flattened reed plates, flatsanded draw reed plate.
I've got it held together with four mini spring clamps.....no problem tongue blocking it all now, after a couple more tuning sessions I'll have it all nailed back together.
Fun little project. I am a fan of the sound the F harp makes, and I'm glad I've finally gotten around to prewarifying another Marine Band for myself and not one of my friends or clients.
Best of luck with your harp Michelle.
G'day all
Michael
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arzajac
1532 posts
Dec 18, 2014
11:56 AM
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"So I guess the question is, do y'all think embossing the reeds on these Marine Band and Special 20 F harps of mine would be a good idea?"
It depends on what you want to accomplish and how much time and effort you are willing to put into it. If you are looking to improve response and tone, adjusting reed shape and getting rid of air leak will accomplish that to a larger degree than just embossing.
The thing with adjusting the reed shape is that it is labor intensive and requires some skill. In comparison, you can do light embossing in a few minute's time and with little skill if you do it as described earlier. That's why it's an often-talked-about intervention. It's the "low-hanging fruit."
I would say light to moderate embossing has more impact on response (extend dynamic range) and volume (more decibels) than it does on changing the tone - i.e. making the tone too bright. I think you can get more of the qualities you seek (better response and more volume) and less of the brightness if you stick with the less-is-more approach.
Also, if you emboss the full length of the slots lightly rather than embossing only the last two-thirds of the slots more aggressively, you will get more bang for your buck. But again, it's more work to do it that way. It takes more time, there are more steps and requires more skill.
So the question is not just whether to emboss, yes or no, but which method is best for you?
Incidentally, about a month ago, I wrote about a technique I find very helpful with regards to embossing. I wrapped it up in a tongue-in-cheek mystery; you can read it here.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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