Leatherlips
306 posts
Dec 14, 2014
1:23 AM
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I've reluctantly put my VHT 12/20RT up for sale as it's not powerful enough for the gigs we are doing.
I now have a 30w valve amp with a 12" speaker which I can run at 10 before I get feedback. Still not loud enough.
I have also made a cab using 2 x C8R speakers which sound great using the ext. speaker outlet, but what I want to know is how to run both the amp speaker with the ext. cab. as the amp speaker is bypassed when the ext. is plugged in.
Anyone know how I can do this?
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Kingley
3775 posts
Dec 14, 2014
1:36 AM
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I imagine you'll most likely need to mod one of the output sockets to a speaker extension. There should be plenty of advice online about how to achieve this. I suspect though that you'll find you're still not loud enough. Mark Burness (5F6H) or Greg Heumann could probably advise you on how to do this the best way.
When you say you're not loud enough do you mean you can't hear yourself onstage? If so then the answer is most likely to place the amp up higher and in a different position onstage than where you currently do.
If you mean you're not loud enough out front. Then you need to mic up the amp into the PA.
If you're still having problems hearing with both those things, then the band is too loud.
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Little roger
48 posts
Dec 14, 2014
1:39 AM
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I am sure there are people here that can help you with the technical issue.
However, if you are running a 30W amp at full volume and you are not loud enough, you have other problems that need addressing first. The usual suspects are the drummer and the guitarist. Not only is your musicality going to suffer but also your hearing and your audience's hearing. And that's not a joke.
Best
R
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Kingley
3776 posts
Dec 14, 2014
1:47 AM
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Little roger makes some good points. Your hearing is your most precious gift as a musician. I wouldn't put myself into a situation where it's likely to be damaged by someone else's ego.
Another thought that comes to mind. You say you're running a 30watt amp at number 10. What mic are you using? Is it a high impedance mic. Because I've never been able to run any amp at number 10 without it screaming with feedback. Also are you cupping the mic properly? Do you have pedals inline with the amp?
If you're not using a high impedance mic, then try using a good high impedance mic straight into the amp with no pedals inline and watch your volume level go through the roof.
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rogonzab
630 posts
Dec 14, 2014
5:32 AM
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yes, if you have volume issues whit a 30w tube amp then find another band, they are playing way to loud.
Maybe a Line Out can be a solution. Run the LO into the PA for the audience, and use your amp just as a monitor.
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Sorry for any misspell, english is not my first language.
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Littoral
1172 posts
Dec 14, 2014
6:02 AM
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How often do we hear "I need more harp in the monitor" from someone in the band?
Are you the only one concerned about the harp being loud enough? If you are then the band isn't being much of a band.
I will add this, it wouldn't be the first time that the harp player not being loud enough was intentional. *just an observation!
Miles of threads on here that say essentially what has already been said here -they often end up at bassman
Last Edited by Littoral on Dec 14, 2014 6:04 AM
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J_Bark
34 posts
Dec 14, 2014
6:04 AM
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The external speaker jack is a "switching" type jack. It disconnects the speaker when an external speaker is plugged in. So it has terminals: + in, + out and -. The + in come from the amp head the + out goes to the speaker. the - will have two wires connected one from the head one to the speaker.
You need to buy a non-swithing jack and put both the + wires onto the + terminal and both the _ wires on the minus.
The potential trouble here is that you will have some amount of impedance mis-matching between the amp head and the speaker load. I am no expert on amps and impedance matching but I do know that a mis-match will result in some loss of efficiency. How bad? I do not know.
For example suppose that you have an 8 ohm speaker in the amp now, and that you built the cabinet to be 8 ohms. if you simply switch the jack on the amp then plug in the cabinet then your impedance will be 4 ohms, because you are connecting the speakers in parallel the impedance adds as the inverse so 1/8+1/8=2/8=1/4 so the impedance of the parallel system is 4 ohms. So your amp which is designed to work with an 8 ohm load will have a 4 ohm load, amps will work best with the proper load.
I think that answers the basic question, but I think Kingley is onto something when he asks about your mic. When I was looking into what mic to buy I exchanged several emails with Greg Heumann (and bought one of his mics). One thing he mentioned to me was that using a low impedance xlr mic with a high impedance xlr to 1/4" cable would give miserable results. If you have a low impedance mic you need to use an impedance transformer or you will get bad results; so perhaps it's the cable?
Good luck,
Jerry
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S-harp
234 posts
Dec 14, 2014
6:20 AM
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If you plug the internal speaker into one of the three external outs instead of the main amp out, you can run two external cabinets together with the internal speaker, as long as they match in ohms.
There are three external outs, right? 4, 8 and 16 ohms.
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SuperBee
2286 posts
Dec 14, 2014
6:23 AM
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i know you've modded that amp to be able to run it with volume up full. it may not actually be as loud as a typical 30 watt amp atfeedback threshhold...
for a couple years i ran a 30 watt Ashton Viper ("designed in Australia, made in China") and i often could 'only just' hear it on stage. the drummer was way too loud, as was the bass player...there was no need for it but thats another story.
as suggesed above the story often ends at 'bassman', mine ended at HotRod Deville 410. modified to allow me to run at 4 on the clean channel. sometimes i still couldn't hear it if i needed an F harp near the end of the night and the guys in the band were doing the mix...but usually it was OK. i havent used that amp for 10 months. I'd sell it for $900 + freight from Tas. i'm not seriously trying to sell it though...what i'm really saying is that you may need multiple speakers and they should be at least 10" and if that doesnt work the band is just too damn' loud. i mainly get by with a silverface Princeton Reverb these days.
of course, its easy to say the band is too loud, but in regional areas sometimes there is not a lot of choice about who you play with, and i know yu guys have a bit of action going on...still...too loud. and get a bassman
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hvyj
2611 posts
Dec 14, 2014
7:25 AM
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I agree w/Super Bee. Your amp is not moving enough air. You need moltiple speakers that are at least 10s. If you are going to hold your own with a hard rocking band, you need a big boy amp with decent sized speakers.
For most of this year I've been playing in the house band for a jam on Sundays. Hard rocking band. A lot of harp players who sit in bring little amps they want to mic. Usually sound like shit through the mains but always present a problem on stage where the itty bitty amp is not loud enough for the harp player to hear himself, and then produces squealing feedback when they try turning up. What may sound good in their living room doesn't cut it in a real world performance environment with a hard rocking band.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 14, 2014 7:40 AM
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6SN7
493 posts
Dec 14, 2014
8:11 AM
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Your post exposes a number of issues.
First, if you wish to run an extention cabinet, you will have to modify your existing amp to have a 1/4" jack installed.You will also have to have your speaker cab wired to be in phase with the amp. I gently suggest you go to a tech for advise.
Second, I have used a 1-12"/2-8" combo amp in the past, it was a Sonny Jr Cruncher and I used it for small/medium rooms with a 4/5 piece band. I also never miced the amp thriu the PA. Only difference from your rig is it had higher wattage. I found (and this is IMHO) the 8"'s enhanced one's tone and "threw" the sound to the back of the room rather than elevate the volume. You want louder, go with 10's.
Thirdly, If you can turn your amp to 10 with no feedback, IMHO you have a mic issue. What kind do you have? If I had played my Sonny Jr at 10, it would be squeeling all over the place.
Get you gear working properly, then you can decide whether the issue extends to your band members playing too loud.
Good Luck.
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Dec 14, 2014 8:22 AM
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Barley Nectar
581 posts
Dec 14, 2014
8:20 AM
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Supe said the amp is modded to run at 10? My guess is low gain tubes. If so, tube that thing back up ^. Use a high impendence mic. What impedance is the 2x8 cab? what impedance is the internal amp speaker? What is the amp set up for speaker impedance wise?
J Bark is right on impedance matching. If you go too low you may blow the OT. ALL THE ABOVE applies...BN
PS, I have a Super Reverb and a Fender 75, I will sell...
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Dec 14, 2014 8:23 AM
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Destin
87 posts
Dec 14, 2014
2:03 PM
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I play with Big Al and the Heavyweights. We play lots of juke joints. When I got the gig I purchased a HG50. It works for all gigs. When I can't turn it up loud I use a harp break for more distortion. If u can afford it I would go this rout. Check out www.bigal.net for shows and come sit in sometime and try it out!
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Leatherlips
307 posts
Dec 14, 2014
2:28 PM
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Thanks for all the responses. It gives me much food for thought.
I didn't mention the amp I use as most of you will not have heard of it. It is a Strauss CLV-30, designed in Australia and made in China.
The mic I mainly use is one I made up using a Superlux shell with volume control and an element from a cheap Chinese SM58 copy. Fantastic tone.
The settings I use are Drive on 2, Drive volume 2, Reverb 2, Bass 5, Middle 2, Treble 0, and volume up to 10. The stock speaker is a V-Lux 12" which works just fine for me as I've tried an Eminence Cannabis Rex as a replacement with little difference.
I also have a Mad dog mic which is too bright for my liking and which I've tried. It gives feedback way earlier than the bullet. I've tried my Behringer XM8500 mic which works very nicely as well, but has no volume control. Again, I cannot get anywhere near 10 with volume on the amp.
The output line is 8 ohms and I have set up the 2 x 4ohm speakers in the cab to run at 8 ohms, so there is no issue there.
It's taken me many years to get the exact sound I've wanted and I get it with the Strauss, so I would be very reluctant to try something else.
Perhaps the idea of putting the 12ax's back in might be something to consider.
I have told the band on many occasions how I think they are too loud and this works for a time but always sneaks back up and I get tired of mentioning it, but the audience never seem to mind.
I was also not keen on micing up to the PA, but if I want to hang onto the Strauss, then it may be my only option.
As for maybe not being wanted any louder, it was just last week I was described as the heart of the band, so I guess that's not the issue.
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hvyj
2612 posts
Dec 14, 2014
3:32 PM
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Treble on 0 maybe a bad idea. Often you need a little treble to get enough cut to be heard in a live performance situation. Try putting it on 1 or 2. You may be surprised.
Last Edited by hvyj on Dec 14, 2014 3:53 PM
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Leatherlips
308 posts
Dec 14, 2014
4:55 PM
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Thanks for that hvyi. I'll give that a go.
I will be seeing my valve amp tech during the week to see if he can help.
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harpwrench
937 posts
Dec 14, 2014
6:18 PM
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Are you using an impedance transformer? Your low-z mic cartridge needs it to match up with the amp.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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Barley Nectar
582 posts
Dec 14, 2014
7:20 PM
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Harp tone needs mids and highs IMO. Most amps I set up highs at 4, mids at 5/6, bass at 8 then go from there...
Unless that amp has an active tone stack, you are throwing away a lot of signal with those settings.
That is the signal that is needed to drive your power tubes. This, in combination with low gain tubes, translates into mushy tone with no cut or definition...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Dec 14, 2014 7:30 PM
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Leatherlips
309 posts
Dec 14, 2014
7:24 PM
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Harpwrench, I've never heard of that. I'll do some research.
Barley, Yeah I will also try different settings. It could be that simple.
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jpmcbride
77 posts
Dec 14, 2014
8:36 PM
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Leather,
Barley is right about the tone settings. What sounds good solo is often NOT what sounds good with the band. I used to run sound for the bands at a large church and always had trouble with the acoustic guitars. That nice deep full tone that sounds so great solo (think Martin guitar)would get lost in the mix. To be heard, the mids and highs had to be turned up. Same applies to harmonica. You have to find your frequency range in the mix. Too much low end and you get lost. Of course it depends on your band, the instruments, the volume, etc.
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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Kingley
3777 posts
Dec 14, 2014
10:25 PM
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"The mic I mainly use is one I made up using a Superlux shell with volume control and an element from a cheap Chinese SM58 copy."
Leatherlips - That's your problem right there. That mic element is from a low impedance mic. So you either need to get a Lo-Hi impedance transformer or get a high impedance mic. Once you do that you'll be lucky to get the volume higher than 6 and the amp will be a hell of a lot louder.
Last Edited by Kingley on Dec 14, 2014 10:25 PM
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Greg Heumann
2913 posts
Dec 14, 2014
11:25 PM
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Read up on decibels and power. It take 10x the power to double the volume. I have had a few 30W amps and they weren't loud enough. 45-50W with plenty of speaker is in the same setting.
I agree if you can get your amp to full without feedback something is wrong. If you're using a low impedance element without a transformer that is part of the problem. If you've confused balanced and unbalanced wiring that's part of the problem too.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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jbone
1832 posts
Dec 15, 2014
4:19 AM
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If you have a pre amp on that amp and you are running all 12au7's you may want to go back to 12ax7 in p1 and p2, then massage the feedback potential at p3, if that amp is made that way. Worked well on my Bassman. On the Silvertone 1482 I use a 12au7 in the secondary pot but the signal comes into the amp full strength from the mic. I ALWAYS use a matching impedance mic.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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Leatherlips
310 posts
Dec 16, 2014
4:38 PM
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OK. I've been a real klutz.
I was stuck on the idea of not having, or having next to no, mids or treble so as I could have the dark tone I wanted. So it turns out this was an unwise decision, as I've played with these settings and can as LOUD as I need now. Only up to about 5 on the dial, but so much louder and I haven't lost the tone I want.
I've used all 3 totally different mics I have, but still come back to the crappy Chinese element in the bullet. Maybe I was just lucky.
I realise I have been on this path before and been single minded and as a result have not done or tried the obvious.
Thanks all who contributed to my post. There is some great info there.
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JJ Harper
34 posts
Dec 17, 2014
4:07 PM
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Your band's stage volume is way too loud. There may not be a gear-based solution for your problem.
Last Edited by JJ Harper on Dec 17, 2014 4:07 PM
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Fil
8 posts
Dec 18, 2014
7:00 AM
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Went to see my audiologist yesterday. I needed the right side hearing aid bumped up a little in the middle range. We talked about the music and my plans to join a local jam. I've been to watch them a couple of times and the sound level doesn't seem too loud, although I haven't been on stage. Her advice was don't wear the hearing aids on stage. I'm also having some molded plugs made that will take about 15db off the top. Having basically no stage experience, I don't know what issues plugs may cause, eg maybe can't hear myself playing, but I do have hearing loss experience. Had enough of that.
fil
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dougharps
789 posts
Dec 18, 2014
10:41 AM
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Ear plugs should let you hear yourself well through internal resonance. I have lost a little of my hearing from loud stage volumes (not enough to be using hearing aids yet) and I always carry ear plugs to venues, because you cannot predict how loud a band may be. Younger players really need to take precautions if they love hearing music!
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Doug S.
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Coro
3 posts
Dec 18, 2014
2:42 PM
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I've read posts on this thread - and several others - about a lack of volume, even with the amp miced. Some players argue that there is simply no real alternative to large, high-powered amps. Help me understand: if your little amp is going through the PA (and you've not eliminated all the high tones by turning treble and mid all the way down), why would you not be loud enough? I've played many gigs - even pretty large venues - micing my Harpgear Double Trouble. I've always THOUGHT I was loud enough -and the sound guys never told me otherwise. Do I need to rethink this?
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indigo
26 posts
Dec 18, 2014
9:36 PM
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@Coro.I think that what guys are talking about is hearing yourself on stage,not what is coming out front of house.
A 5 watt amp miked through the PA can be extremely loud to the audience for sure but you can have it on a stool right next to your earhole and not hear a thing..been there done that.
The idea of a big amp is that you and the crowd are hearing the same thing.Ok more to it than that but that is the gist of the matter.
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Leatherlips
311 posts
Dec 19, 2014
1:50 AM
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I was of the assumption that the amp on it's own would be loud enough without micing it up as I have played this way with it at another venue without a problem.
One answer is to mic it up and play through the PA, but I prefer not to if I can help it, as this engenders it's own problems.
Anyway, our next gig is not until January 3, so here's hoping.
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jbone
1834 posts
Dec 19, 2014
4:12 AM
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I have seen/heard this many times: On stage the saturation of sound gets so great that the FREQUENCY of the harp/mic/amp just gets lost on stage. There is nothi9ng so frustrating as knowing you have great tone going, and you can't hear it 6 feet from the amp, let alone the audience. I wrestled with this for years. The last straw was being on stage with my Bassman cranked pretty much all the way and between the two wall-of-noise guitars and a metal style drummer, I could hear not a thing out of my rig, yet I was watching powdered mortar fall out of the brick wall next to me. And the two guitarists had been showing each other their earplugs prior to getting on stage. If ear plugs are necessary IT'S TOO FREAKIN' LOUD. Unless you're playing an arena for 5k plus people. Just my opinion.
It appears that you've gotten some volume back by letting the treble back into the mix. Good! At this point I would get the amp miced through the p.a. and have NO monitor on the amp mic to the p.a. Your amp is your monitor.
Adam has a video where he plays through several different rigs including his go-to double small amp setup, and it cuts through a not too loud band. Key word frequency.
This has been a hot issue with harp guys for a long time. Another solution which may help is to try say a Shure 585 mic. Hi Z and good mids and treb as well as decent bottom. Most of my tone is already there before the mic and amp come into the equation. Of course there is always a place in my case for a hotass bullet mic.
Since last summer we have used 5w Champs almost all the time. We play small venues and you can crank these things up nearly all the way to get incredible breakup. Saturday we recorded our next cd with them, also with a drummer and bassist who understand the lower volume approach.
It is not easy to find players who can truly lay back and not blast. And some audiences in some places are ok with high volume. Personally I want to keep my hearing as it is, having lost some mids and highs from years on factory floors and loud stages, both out front and in the middle with a band.
Hope you get what you need L-L.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
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A440
268 posts
Dec 19, 2014
4:31 AM
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In bigger venues, the audience is hearing what comes out of the PA. So everything on the stage needs to be mic'd into the PA: guitar amps, harp amp, vocal mics, drum mics, etc. So a 5 watt tube amp with an 8" speaker can work fine as a harp amp, if properly mic'd and the person at the sound board manages things correctly.
The two problems/challenges are:
1. As a player, you can't hear what you are playing. That is solved by monitors - usually a pair of floor speakers on the stage pointing back to the band. So the musicians hear the same mix as the audience.
2. It's too loud, which will damage your hearing, or cause chronic tinnitus (which is different from damaged hearing). This problem is harder to easily solve. I have been using musicians earplugs, which fit in the ears and cost about 30€/$. They lower the sound level by about 15db, but do take some getting used to. For more money you can get custom fitted high-grade ear protection, or, for even more money, in-ear monitors.
Personally, I am tired of playing with loud bands (especially loud drummers), and I suffer from chronic tinnitus. So I have decided to start playing in mostly (only?) acoustic and non-amplified settings. I am also looking to shift from a Rolling Stones style of music to a Cephas & Wiggins style of music. It means getting back to the pure and natural sound of a harp, in front of a clean vocal mic. That creates new challenges and learning as a player, which I like. It also means I don't need to deal with mics, pedals, amps, cables, impedances, etc. My only tool is my harmonica. And above all, it will be better for my precious ears.
Last Edited by A440 on Dec 19, 2014 4:31 AM
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Leatherlips
312 posts
Dec 19, 2014
12:01 PM
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Both you guys, jbone and A440 are right onto my predicament. I have promised myself that I will join/start an acoustic band after I quit this one.
We have just finished a CD which is being released on Valentines day 2015, so there is plenty to be happy about with The Moonshine Run.
Unfortunately, I have tinnitus, but it started when I was not in a band. I believe it was a dental visit when it started. Protecting ones hearing certainly is vital as we don't get a second chance once damaged.
The band is in the process of buying a quality PA and not relying on the existing bitsa. I have worn plugs at practice when necessary and I may have to resort to that when gigging. Not ideal, but if needs must.
Thanks again guys for the great info.
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