Destin
84 posts
Nov 12, 2014
9:38 PM
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Hey Guys,
My names Destin I'm the harp player for Big Al and The Heavyweights. Please come see us play sometime and talk Harp with me.
Show listing at www.bigal.net
I WANT MORE BASS! I'm playing out of a Harp Gear 4x10 and a sm58. I also use a sonic stomp and a Harp Break.
I can't seem to get enough low end before feedback. I can get way loud with treble and mids without feedback but not much on the low side.
Any tips on how to get more low end before feedback?
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Little roger
35 posts
Nov 12, 2014
10:43 PM
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Clearly we don't know what your acoustic sounds like - if you have a thinnish acoustic sound it's hard to get too much low end out of your gear. Any halfway decent 4x10 setup should give you loads of bass, although I don't know the HG amp.
The Harp Attack tends to boost mids and upper mids, which might be the case with your Harp Break. I'm sure there are others here that have the HB and can comment. Have you tried playing your mic straight into the amp without the pedals and seeing which frequencies there are? That's how I would start.
The sm58 is a decent mic but you could try a Green Bullet or some bullet with an old Shure CR/CM, which tend to offer more lower end.
Best
R
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dougharps
771 posts
Nov 13, 2014
8:35 AM
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I would agree that it is a good idea to first try playing straight to the amp with no pedals. Pedals can help with some amps, but I would try without first, because they may increase feedback or alter tone. Pedals can add gain on the amp. Start with the EQ flat, then cut some highs, then add a little bass. Tweak to taste...
You could also try other mics. I am a fan of the High Z Shure 585AV, a ball mic that has volume control, good lows, and is the most feedback resistant mic I have. But that may not be necessary. You should be able to get better lows with many mics, including the 58, though it is EQed for vocals and emphasizes some mids and highs. Have you tried a SM57?
As noted, good acoustic tone is a factor in amplified tone.
One final issue: have any of the speakers been swapped out in the amp? If speakers are out of phase you could lose low frequencies.
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Doug S.
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Joe_L
2541 posts
Nov 13, 2014
8:50 AM
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Are you using an impedance transformer with that mic? There should be plenty of bottom end available with that amp. It is either your technique or the gear between you and the amp.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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chromaticblues
1622 posts
Nov 13, 2014
9:34 AM
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@Destin
I wouldn't use an EQ or anything stomp box at all!
As Joe L and Little roger said make the sure the amp is stock or at least modified correctly! If so try a few different mics until you find something that sounds good with just you-harp-mic-amp. Nothing else!
I agree with dougharps concept of EQing, but I would find a mic that does it for you that isn't feedback prone and harp friendly.
Big Al plays in some small places and that's a bigish amp. That's just asking for feedback!
Destin the Akia DM13 is one of the mics I would try.
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NathanLWBC
19 posts
Nov 13, 2014
12:24 PM
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The Harp Break "bass boost" boosts your upper lows and low mids, since the harp does not have access to true bass frequencies. The bass boost control is a true boost, so that's not the problem. The Sonic Stomp, the stomp box version of the sonic maximizer, slows down your high frequencies so that it all exits the speaker at the same time (obviously, I'm simplifying this). That wouldn't cause your problem.
The amp is designed for harp and should be optimized for the frequency bands that harp actually sounds in. So I doubt that's the problem. That narrows it down to three factors. It's either something you're doing(which I have no clue about...I'm just a lowly bass player), the speakers (a 4x10 should have tons of bass), or the microphone. I've met you, and you're a good player, so my bet is on the mic.
Just other general questions...what are your EQ settings on the amp, the settings on the HB, and your settings on the Sonic Stomp?
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--Nathan Heck
Lead Technician, Lone Wolf Blues Co.
customerservice@lonewolfblues.com
Last Edited by NathanLWBC on Nov 13, 2014 12:25 PM
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Barley Nectar
567 posts
Nov 13, 2014
5:21 PM
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Hi Nate, Good of you to hang around. BTW, there are no lowly instruments IMO...BN
Last Edited by Barley Nectar on Nov 13, 2014 5:22 PM
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Meaux Jeaux
23 posts
Nov 13, 2014
6:19 PM
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I swapped tubes in my super reverb to short bottle TADs
6L6s to beef up the bottom end.
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jbone
1806 posts
Nov 13, 2014
8:13 PM
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My last 4x10 was a very nice replica '59 Bassman. I swapped the 12ax7s in p2 and p3 for 12au7's, and jumped the channels via input 2 and 3. Got some good overdrive that way.
I'm with Doug, I like the Shure 585. I also like a good old cm bullet mic.
If it ain't gear maybe you could find some deep breathing exercises to do like those vocalists use, or some yoga stuff. If you can access the depth of your torso and relax what needs relaxing you will find deeper tone.
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http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbTwvU-EN1Q
Last Edited by jbone on Nov 14, 2014 4:11 AM
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Destin
85 posts
Nov 13, 2014
8:43 PM
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Yea I been thinking about trying some new mics but then again I guess you can't defy the laws of physics..........
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Littoral
1162 posts
Nov 14, 2014
3:14 AM
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"...but then again I guess you can't defy the laws of physics.......... "
Yeah, but we're damn good at applying them so don't let up. I for one didn't do a good enough job of tweaking all the possibilities and my sound suffered for it. A friend of mine from way back (that also played some harp with Big Al, Paul Linden) convinced me to spend more time with my gear. I'd found what I needed and that was it, for 20 years. Now it was (is) a brown Concert and a CM bullet so I had a pretty good reason. I've since updated a lot and couldn't be happier. There's certainly good advice in this thread, I'd follow Nathans suggestions.
Last Edited by Littoral on Nov 14, 2014 3:15 AM
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NathanLWBC
20 posts
Nov 14, 2014
6:45 AM
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@Barley...This is a nice forum and thank you for the welcome. The lowly comment was my sad attempt at a pun.
@Destin...If I were you, I'd try using another mic before completely reevaluating how I play the instrument. You may be doing everything right, but that just may not be the right mic for you.
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--Nathan Heck
Lead Technician, Lone Wolf Blues Co.
customerservice@lonewolfblues.com
Last Edited by NathanLWBC on Nov 14, 2014 6:47 AM
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Greg Heumann
2874 posts
Nov 14, 2014
7:34 AM
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Absolutely, positively change mics. The 58 is very difficult to cup effectively, which in turn means less bass. BIG BASS/FAT TONE COMES FROM GOOD CUPPING, more than any other variable. Of all the Shure stick mics the 533SA is the bassiest (or should I say, more correctly, has the least treble.) ANY of their stick mics that you can cup well (57, 545, PE54, etc) will give you good results. My Bulletizer will help on those mics that it fits.
And a good bullet with a single impedance CM or CR is another good choice.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Nov 14, 2014 7:34 AM
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JJ Harper
31 posts
Nov 14, 2014
4:29 PM
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Yeah, dump the pedals, try a different microphone, and work on your cupping.
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arnenym
313 posts
Nov 15, 2014
2:13 AM
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A SM58 aint the best mic for low end. Hard to cup. A SM57 is better, a old 545 is even better.
But there is a lot of other microphones that's better than a SM58. Talk to Greg heumann. he will help you out.
Edit:
Ooops Greg had already answered the post..
Last Edited by arnenym on Nov 15, 2014 2:15 AM
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mastercaster
92 posts
Nov 15, 2014
2:39 AM
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@Destin
fwiw , I have been using Gregg's 545 w/bullitizer for about 1 year or so ..
Right now I'm traveling around se asia, my trip based on blues clubs locations, yup it's true .. believe it or not .. there are a bunch of them .. so, always sitting in .... only carrying the mic , cord and some hohner's ..
Pretty happy with the tone I can get out of it ... get allot of real good 'feedback' from the musicians & listeners both , but, none from what I'm plugged into ... mostly house pa's, or, if i'm lucky , get to plug into an amp & .. either one set up correctly ..
the mic gets good low end tone ..
I play allot of my rides in the lower octave w/deep bends and cupping accents ... for me I love good rich tone .. performance in the middle to high range rides .. splitting octaves etc. the mic does just fine .. not at all 'thin' sounding ..
Point is .. that mic's got some bottom end with the right user .. couldn't ask for much more out of a stick mic ...
Technique also matter's a 'hole' lot ..
Last Edited by mastercaster on Nov 15, 2014 3:17 AM
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rbeetsme
1598 posts
Nov 15, 2014
5:52 AM
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Greg is right, good mic, good cup will do wonders. I've seen Big Al with Jason Ricci, Little Red and and another whos' name escapes me. All great players, so I'm sure you must be a seasoned player. Just buy a Greg Heumann wood mic with a good vintage elelment, you'll like it. If feedback is an issue, check out the Squeal killer. You didn't list your amp settings, here's what I do. Bass up high, treble between 1 to 3 depending on the amp, 0 to 2 middle. Sometimes turning down the treble will kill the volume, play with it.
Last Edited by rbeetsme on Nov 15, 2014 5:52 AM
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6SN7
489 posts
Nov 15, 2014
8:05 AM
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As a number of other have said, get a bullet mic. You'll get a better cup as that is the key to getting a good tone out of the mic. Greg is a super source. If you can't wait me his custom mice, check out Simple Mics on the internet. James has a number of ready to go Green Bullets for sale.
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Barley Nectar
570 posts
Nov 16, 2014
10:47 AM
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Destin, try this. Get some good black electrical tape, Scotch 33+ is the best, now tape up the lower half of the SM 58 ball. Seal it to the mic body. Now you can get a tighter seal because the tape is doing half the job for you. Cup her well and give it a blow. Let us know how it goes...BN
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Destin
86 posts
Nov 16, 2014
12:00 PM
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That sounds like an interesting idea Barley
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Pistolcat
743 posts
Nov 16, 2014
12:40 PM
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Get a bullet mic. I recommend one with a finless (modified) turner 254 shell. It has a nice raised rim around the grill that help your cup and giving you a little space between the harp and microphone element. Get a nice element, too.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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boris_plotnikov
1023 posts
Nov 17, 2014
8:46 AM
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Destin
Your rig have to be very bassy even if you're using SM58.
Do you use impedance transformer between mic and pedals? If not, get it, it really gives you more bass and proper load on your gear.
If yes get try shure SM57, SM545 or electrovoice N/D967 (my choice) or RE10.
And again; bass frequencies in harmonica is produced by proper mouth resonance and proper mic cupping.
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
Last Edited by boris_plotnikov on Nov 17, 2014 8:48 AM
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barbequebob
2756 posts
Nov 17, 2014
12:23 PM
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Even with a tight cup or whatever mic you're using, you must also develop as large a resonating cavity in your hands as you possibly can, which is far too often heavily overlooked. Even when you're playing acoustic harp, it's equally important to develop that as well.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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blueswannabe
527 posts
Nov 17, 2014
4:06 PM
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To Bob and Bori's points, you can make a larger resonating chamber with your hands with an RE-10 or an -SM57 as well, as opposed to a bullet mic. What you might lose in perceived bass by not using a CM/CR element, you can compensate for on a stick mic using a larger and tighter resonating chamber.
Also, The tight cup is something that actually does take practice. It's not as easy as one would expect. There are a lot of leaks especially in between your index finger and thumb which sandwich the harp (you can use your face to cover) and on the upper register of the harp as well, which you can use your thumb. Sometimes I cover the entire harp with both hands and I get a better bass response as opposed to covering more than 3/4 of the harp and leaving the upper register covered by my thumb.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Nov 17, 2014 4:08 PM
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Greg Heumann
2877 posts
Nov 18, 2014
7:21 AM
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And, for the record because it hasn't been said in a while, single harmonica notes aren't very bassy, period. All of your personal impact on tone MATTERS but there isn't a lot of bass there. As soon as you play two notes or more, however, the sound waves actually combine to produce a bass note, considerably lower than either note being played, thanks to a physical phenomenon called "DIFFERENCE TONES". It is hard to hear this without good technique and amplification but it is very real and this is where the real bass comes from.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
Bluestate on iTunes
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hvyj
2590 posts
Nov 23, 2014
6:00 AM
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I believe that fatness and body in harmonica tone comes from the low mids (around 240-250 hz). So, you might get closer to the sound you are after by backing off the bass but pumping the mids. IMHO a 545 or SM 57 are a better choice for harp than a 58. Tight cup a 545 or a 57 and you will definitely get deeper low end. Now, if you use a volume control on the mic ( or use one of Greg's Ultimtate 545 or 57 mics) you can attenuate the input signal at the mic by turning down the vc so the input signal is not as hot. This will allow you to turn the amp up which creates better tone without as much potential for feedback. It might also allow you to take the HB out of the chain.
The HB is a nice pedal with an effective bass boost control. But it heats up your input signal which creates greater potential for feedback. By using a mic with a vc to cool out the input signal you can drive the amp harder by turning it up which allows you to get better tube compression which may accomplish sonically what you now try to achieve with the HB but with less potential for feedback. Personally I've never found that using a bullet mic decreases feedback.
Of course you can also try using an equalizer. The MXR 10 band has a slider at 250hz as well as pre and post VCs which gives you a lot of control. FWIW
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 23, 2014 7:02 AM
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Barley Nectar
573 posts
Nov 23, 2014
7:25 AM
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Turn the mic down and turn the amp up for less feedback?
Not to sure I agree with that statement. If I turn my mic down and turn the amp up I lessen the range of the "sweet spot" volume wise. This makes the amp/mic more difficult to dial in. The rig will be more touchy feedback wise IMO. This statement applies to higher power amps.
I do agree with the use of an EQ. I have tried an EQ in the past with good results but I don't usally use one.
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hvyj
2592 posts
Nov 23, 2014
8:03 AM
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@Barley Nectar: my experience is not the same as what you are describing. In my experience I can't get to the sweet spot without feedback unless I use a vc to attenuate the signal from the mic. But I don't use bullet mics so I have no opinion on how what I do would work with a bullet. It's simply a matter of letting the amp push harder by having the mic push less. This has worked for me with a Fender Super Reverb, Princeton Reverb, and Peavey Delta Blues in a wide variety of playing situations, so I'm pretty confident that this technique works consistently well. Btw, my mic is a 545 Ultimate.
Last Edited by hvyj on Nov 23, 2014 8:06 AM
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dougharps
779 posts
Nov 23, 2014
3:00 PM
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Issues causing a lack of lows could be at any part of the signal chain. The player's tone, mic technique, the mic itself, pedals, amp settings, or the amp and speakers could each affect the fullness of the tone.
I have to ask, since I mentioned it above... did you check that the speakers are wired properly and none of the leads are reversed causing the speakers to be out of phase? This goes to the amp and speakers being the issue.
Another question is: Have other players played through your rig and achieved significantly better lows than you do? This goes to technique.
Identifying the cause is the first step needed to help you fix the problem.
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Doug S.
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