The Iceman
2059 posts
Sep 16, 2014
8:41 AM
|
This is about current blues bands - especially those on the local bar circuit.
What I call primitive playing can be found on early Canned Heat and a lot of British Blues Bands from the 60/70's, as well as some of the old original blues recordings.
This consists of bass player playing nothing more than root notes and total walking bass on the beat, drums that sound like bass drum, snare, one tom and two cymbals, guitar playing chord fragments (2 or 3 strings a la Alex Schultz) and all at low volume, allowing harmonica to do its thing without fighting volume and/or frequency sonic space.
These recordings sound so relaxed.
In today's world, blues bands sound like they are trying too hard or beating the audience into submissive with volume and overplaying.
Too much ego involved in the new 21st Century?
----------
The Iceman
|
rogonzab
595 posts
Sep 16, 2014
11:29 AM
|
We live in an individualist world, so is all about one´s technique.
her is nothing more boring that a new band playing a slow blues, is alway 15m log and is pure solos.
This guys are great, I think you are going to love them:
|
The Iceman
2061 posts
Sep 16, 2014
11:48 AM
|
This is cool. All they need is a drummer playing that $150 drum kit.
----------
The Iceman
|
Honkin On Bobo
1252 posts
Sep 16, 2014
11:52 AM
|
Asked and answered, Ice. Nice.
|
rogonzab
596 posts
Sep 16, 2014
12:04 PM
|
|
Goldbrick
684 posts
Sep 16, 2014
1:04 PM
|
Are we primitive enuff?
|
JustFuya
535 posts
Sep 16, 2014
3:29 PM
|
I don't think I'm in the targeted demographic for the new blues so my absence from the audience goes unnoticed.
|
kudzurunner
4965 posts
Sep 16, 2014
4:04 PM
|
Goldbrick, are you the drummer or the guitar/banjo guy? I like your stuff a lot more than the two videos above; you're breathing life into old tunes, not striving to replicate an old style with a familiar set of moves.
|
atty1chgo
1126 posts
Sep 16, 2014
4:15 PM
|
|
The Iceman
2066 posts
Sep 16, 2014
4:33 PM
|
Fleetwood Mac clip above is actually more of what I had in mind to describe primitive playing, rather than the other videos posted.
Would love to see local blues bands at local clubs approach music from this perspective, but it just doesn't seem to happen. My question is whether it is just too much ego these days that pushes the volume and playing at audiences so much.
----------
The Iceman
|
Goldbrick
686 posts
Sep 16, 2014
5:05 PM
|
@Kudzu
I be the drummer/singer
Mark Slack is the banjitar player
A side note- Mark is featured on Goldtone's ( banjitar maker) website. he is a terrific player and songwriter
|
jpmcbride
67 posts
Sep 16, 2014
7:11 PM
|
Could be that many were raised on rock-n-roll and came to the blues later. They're approaching blues from a rock perspective.
Or it could be the reverse. Audiences come from a rock perspective and expect this.
IDK, but I get what you're saying. Fewer notes and less volume on the bass (and I'm a bass player), hit the drums softer and cut back on the embellishments, and stop playing those big chords like a rock guitarist. Leave some room for the vocals and a little harmonica, and maybe even some empty space to rest my tired ears :-)
----------
Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
|
Joe_L
2513 posts
Sep 16, 2014
8:49 PM
|
Iceman - Most of my friends play like that? Why would anyone play any other way? However, they don't play shitty. I don't think of it as primitive, just the natural blues.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on Sep 16, 2014 8:51 PM
|
Diggsblues
1550 posts
Sep 17, 2014
6:42 AM
|
This is as primitive as I get.
----------
|
The Iceman
2067 posts
Sep 17, 2014
7:08 AM
|
Joe L...
What I call "primitive" may not be a direct dictionary meaning of that word...may also be considered by some to be natural blues. Refer to the Peter Green example above.
Diggs...nice, but not really the definition of primitive blues I had in mind.
Another example (maybe not pure blues, but they were considered an English blues band way back in the beginning).
Another of my fav bands in the late 60's...
To my ears, this sounds fresh today...not dated.
----------
The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Sep 17, 2014 7:27 AM
|
Diggsblues
1551 posts
Sep 17, 2014
7:30 AM
|
Ok icy I think this is what you what you're looking for.
Georgie Bonds he's in the blues hall of fame.
Oh yeah that's me on harmonica.
----------
Last Edited by Diggsblues on Sep 17, 2014 7:31 AM
|
JInx
888 posts
Sep 17, 2014
9:08 AM
|
I dig the primitive sound too. Why they don't play it like this anymore? Well, some really tasty, more sophisticated stuff has come along and blown our minds. Now guys wanna try and get there as well, problem is most of em suck.
----------
Last Edited by JInx on Sep 17, 2014 9:09 AM
|
kudzurunner
4966 posts
Sep 17, 2014
9:21 AM
|
I'm rereading Elijah Wald's ESCAPING THE DELTA: ROBERT JOHNSON AND THE INVENTION OF THE BLUES for the umpteenth time, and this time his main point is finally beginning to sink in: the "primitive" aesthetic in the blues, whether it takes the form of admiring raw down home styles or 50's Chicago styles (i.e, what these days would be considered retro urban styles), is very much a white thing: the aftermath of the 60s blues revival and the white reimagining of what the blues tradition is. This reimagining can easily lead us to presume that those primitive styles were important to a preponderance of the record-buying black blues audience back in the day. Nothing could be further from the truth. (Little Walter was important, of course--"Juke" was a huge hit--but Muddy and Wolf never had #1 hits.) As Wald shows through scrupulous evidencing, black blues audiences back in the day wanted smooth contemporary stylists: Louis Jordan, Dinah Washington, Charles Brown, Ivory Joe Hunter. Back in Mississippi in 1941, they wanted Walter Davis and Leroy Carr and especially Fats Waller. They did NOT want Charley Patton or Robert Johnson.
They wanted the pop hits, and most "bluesmen" (as we call them (had very wide-ranging set-lists, because making a living depended on playing what the people wanted. When asked about his repertoire by Alan Lomax in 1942, Muddy Waters went through his songlist and mentioned seven songs by Gene Autry. Big Jack Johnson did a version of "You Are My Sunshine" every time I saw him:
Like Iceman, I like primitive styles, but I also like jazzy chord changes and modern sounds. My own goal is to hear and capture a new sound that strikes listeners as fresh and new AND an extension of a well-known tradition. Here's Leroy Carr, the most prolific and influential blues singer of Robert Johnson's era (the 1930s), according to Wald--and infinitely more popular with black audiences than Johnson.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Sep 17, 2014 9:30 AM
|
kudzurunner
4967 posts
Sep 17, 2014
9:27 AM
|
So my rejoinder to Iceman would be a thread asking precisely the opposite question: Why don't blues bands embrace truly modern sounds?
|
The Iceman
2069 posts
Sep 17, 2014
9:48 AM
|
I dunno. What do you think?
----------
The Iceman
|
Diggsblues
1552 posts
Sep 17, 2014
10:14 AM
|
When we say modern is it production, mics, soloing concepts, types of songs that are in blues bands today?
Today a blues band may play Ain't No Sunshine with a blues approach. Is it a blues approach applied to non-traditional blues tunes?
----------
|
Rgsccr
281 posts
Sep 17, 2014
10:15 AM
|
I find this interesting as it something I struggle with -that is, getting my band-mates to play traditional blues since we bill ourselves as a Chicago-style blues band. If you look at our set lists you would think we are true to that genre - all Otis Rush, Muddy Waters, Magic Sam, Robert Johnson (with a Butterfield flavor), but when we come up with a new song to work on it's always learn it from the Kenny Wayne Shepherd version or Gary Moore or Joe Bonamassa, etc. As a result we often miss the groove that I love in the original versions I listen to (or Chicago covers). Why does this happen to us - well, like Jim McBride suggests, the rest of the band was raised on rock and roll, and played in rock and roll bands (in one case still does regularly). The drummer, in particular, wants to make everything a bit faster. Why do I stay? Well, I am not that good (yet), and I like the guys, and they gave me the chance to play in a band. Also, they look at me as more steeped in the blues (pretty much haven't listened to anything else since 1970 when I started playing harp), and will let me steer them toward the older versions of songs we are learning (sometimes). Also, both the bass player and the lead guitarist are really starting to get it. Both are very good musicians and starting to feel the groove. Anyway, that is why we are sort of one of the bands that Iceman mentioned initially, although, hopefully we are moving in another (and better) direction. Oh, one more thing, as JM also suggested, some of this comes from the perception by my guys that slow blues songs put an audience to sleep (maybe the way we play them does). We are careful to mix our set list with different tempos, different keys, different singers, etc. to keep things fresh. Still, we have dumped some songs I love like, Key to the Highway and Rock Me, because the guys thought they were boring.
Last Edited by Rgsccr on Sep 17, 2014 10:20 AM
|
JInx
890 posts
Sep 17, 2014
10:44 AM
|
why do styles evolve? progress? change?
because we are lost in the sacred grove, worshipping the divine king. and as always the king must be killed.
----------
Last Edited by JInx on Sep 17, 2014 11:00 AM
|
JustFuya
538 posts
Sep 17, 2014
11:29 AM
|
To me primitive is simple yet soulful. There was a trend that started in the 60s or 70s when everyone in the band had a solo. They were featuring musicians rather than the music. Every member is due utmost respect but not to the detriment of the song.
|
GamblersHand
531 posts
Sep 17, 2014
1:31 PM
|
I think the opposite - I hear more of a delta/ RL Burnside sound becoming more prevalent and blues bands becoming a little more hook & groove based rather than interminable-gurning-solos-over-plodding-rhythm-sections
perhaps some influence from the rock spectrum? Black Keys, John Spencer, North Mississippi Allstars, Seasick Steve, Ian Siegal, Scott Biram?
|
jbone
1761 posts
Sep 17, 2014
3:40 PM
|
Jolene and I usually keep it simple. In fact we're polishing up- slightly- a few gospel blues songs to do at a small fest in 3 weeks. Vocals, clapping, tambourine, just a bit of harmonica.
This next cd venture, while it will include drums and bass, is going to be pretty bare bones as well. The guy we have on board on drums brings a snare and maybe a bass drum and that's it. The bassist will do what we ask which will be to do pretty much the minimum. No drum or bass solos! Groove all the way.
----------
http://www.reverbnation.com/jawboneandjolene
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000386839482
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wa7La7yYYeE
|
Joe_L
2514 posts
Sep 18, 2014
5:19 PM
|
I think a lot of people don't play the old stuff is because they can't do it well. A lot of people think Howlin' Wolf or Junior Wells playing is primitive or simple, but I know very few people that can do it with the same feeling. I think they don't understand space and creating tension and release.
----------
The Blues Photo Gallery
|
wolfkristiansen
323 posts
Sep 18, 2014
11:06 PM
|
Why don't blues bands embrace primitive playing? A thought provoking question, Iceman. I've been busy with my offline life, but this question has inspired me to jump in and ramble on a bit. Let me.
Thank you, Jinx, for the Frankie Lee Sims song, "Well Goodbye Baby". I loved that song since I heard it first on Red Lightin's vinyl collection of bootleg '45s, issued as "Blues in D Natural". Anybody remember that album? I still have it, and still listen to it. I still have a turntable, Dynaco tube amp and Wharfedale speakers. The songs on that album were ear openers. I learned to play "Tanya" on the harp (**harp content!**) from Earl Hooker's version on that album.
Two of my favorites, though, were "She Likes to Boogie Real Low", and "Well Goodbye Baby", both by Frankie Lee. Primitive, but powerful. Bluesy in every way, with impeccable blues timing. Primitive does not mean bad timing or bad notes.
When I was younger, decades ago, my ears, brain and heart came alive when I heard a certain kind of music.
What was it? Often it was blues, of the early kind; often by a solo performer. Sometimes it was other kinds of "folk music". What caught my ears about "folk music", blues or otherwise (I figured this out later), is that the performers were unselfconsciously conveying their feelings with no regard as to whether their recordings would sell or not. They were working their feelings out in the studio first, looking for a hit record second. That grabbed me. It was real. A lot of that unselfconscious music was "primitive", if simple means primitive, but it touched me like no other music.
REAL beats "I HOPE IT SELLS" every time. Kudzurunner might posit the contrary-- i.e. it's always about the money. I get that.
Tommy McLennan is a good example of what I mean, but so is Lightnin' Hopkins. Have a listen:
That "primitive" folk music (blues and otherwise) is what grabbed me when I was young. It's what grabbed Polish immigrant Moses Asch, motivating him to drive all over the southern states with his portable tape recorder packed in the trunk of his car. Check out Folkways Records, which he ran till his death in 1986.
The music that caught his ears then, and mine later, is so much more vital than any of the pap I heard and hear on commercial radio stations.
About primitive-- if you're a primitive, play what you are. If you're a smart, music reading jazzbo, play what you are. I love Frankie Lee Sims, but I equally love T-Bone Walker. He was not in any way primitive, but he was bluesy!
About primitive-- so many of the bar bands I hear ARE primitive when they play blues. Not because they embrace it, but because they are primitive-- one step up from cavemen. Their rhythm is rudimentary-- it feels like a sledgehammer pounding your head in 4/4 time. Their notes, vocal other otherwise, are not nuanced. All in all, it sure sounds primitive to me, but without the good things (sincerity, feeling, etc.) that can come with that. But I don't mean this in a bad way.
Cheers,
wolf kristiansen
Last Edited by wolfkristiansen on Sep 18, 2014 11:09 PM
|
colman
321 posts
Sep 19, 2014
1:27 PM
|
With that so called primitive blues,I feel that their approach had more dynamics,go from loud and bring it down till you could hear a pin drop[buddy guy1967]than take it to loud again.a lot of bands i hear now play loud all night...that must be the hard rock element,i can dig it all...
|
Frank
5342 posts
Sep 20, 2014
7:29 PM
|
Not bar blues, but nice breathing music void of ego-tis-ti-cal garbage.
Avishai Cohen - Zycopolis Productions by Zycopolis
|
Frank
5349 posts
Sep 21, 2014
7:00 PM
|
A blues band could embrace this tune- make it primitive and would work if played deep down.
|
