Michael Rubin
930 posts
Aug 27, 2014
9:17 AM
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Harpdude, this refers to your post concerning Tinus' overblow video.
I am confused. I have never been able to throat bend. Then I watched a Lee Sankey video. He says he throat bends. Then he proceeds to explain he raises the back of his tongue and the throat raises with it. He states the concept of throat bending does not mean you do not involve your tongue, it just means you do not involve your lips or your jaw. How relieved I was! I have been throat bending for years, I just didn't understand the definition.
Now I read your post and it seems to suggests the tongue does not move when you throat bend. Perhaps I misunderstand you. Please elaborate.
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Diggsblues
1512 posts
Aug 27, 2014
10:26 AM
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Mike I don't consciously do throat bending.
I think any movement of the tongue moves the
throat. I use small movements of the tip of the
tongue to do a lot my bending that in turn forms
the arc that changes the air flow. I think the more
refined the technique the less physical movement is
needed.
Emile
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Greg Heumann
2817 posts
Aug 27, 2014
10:37 AM
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There is a definite difference for me. Tongue-only bending is done at the front of the mouth - I feel no constriction at the throat and I am moving the tip of my tongue. Throat bending is done at the back. The tongue still moves but not at the tip. If you can bend in tongue-block position you're probably throat bending.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
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The Iceman
1957 posts
Aug 27, 2014
10:43 AM
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There already has been a long thread concerning throat bending.
My take on it is that, if one focuses on the throat only, the tongue may be moved correctly, but no direct awareness is placed on the tongue position.
By focusing on controlling the tongue (which, by the way is certainly not limited to just the tip), one may develop a closer understanding with how minimal tongue movements create and control all the bends - at the same time keeping the throat open in the pre-yawn attitude for maximum resonance.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Aug 27, 2014 12:16 PM
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Michael Rubin
931 posts
Aug 27, 2014
11:12 AM
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So it seems the responses suggest I was originally correct. In order to throat bend the back of the tongue must raise. Larry suggests think about the throat and the tongue follows. Personally I think tongue and the throat follows but it sounds like the same thing is happening. I feel more secure that there is not a magical throat bend that does not involve movement of the tongue.Thanks!
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arzajac
1452 posts
Aug 27, 2014
11:33 AM
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The tongue is a very complex and very big muscle and everyone's anatomy is different.
If you could take a normal-sized person's tongue and fold it around like a ball of dough, it would be almost the size of a softball.
The throat *is* the tongue. Sure there is lots going on down there, but if you take away the tongue, none of it works anymore.
I'm certain than due to the position of the larynx not being constant from person to person, the different size and shape of the tongue, the different distances between chin and Adam's apple, different neck length and position, there can't possibly be one movement or technique on the harmonica that can create the same effect in the same way for everyone.
To bend a note, you need to create an air pocket of a specific size as you blow or draw. As a rule, making the pocket further back creates better tone.
But I don't think applying strict rules as to which muscles to contract is relevant because nobody's anatomy is the same. What works for one person or a certain weight, neck length, larynx size, etc... may not work for someone skinnier, taller, etc...
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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The Iceman
1958 posts
Aug 27, 2014
12:16 PM
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quoting Michael..."Larry suggests think about the throat and the tongue follows. "
This is NOT AT ALL what I suggested.
Please re-read my posting carefully.
I firmly believe in focusing on the tongue.
My "throat" statement was a bridge to those that (perhaps incorrectly) think that it is the throat that creates the bend.
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The Iceman
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SuperBee
2170 posts
Aug 27, 2014
12:36 PM
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Yes, I caught that...
This was a refreshing bunch of posts for me to read. The most sensible discussion of the topic I've seen on this board.
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harpdude61
2082 posts
Aug 27, 2014
1:49 PM
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Iceman tongue bends. I'm sure he uses his throat as it follows his tongue. The action is initiated with tongue muscles.
I, myself throat bend. I initiate the movement with my throat and the tongue follows.
Don't get confused by what Tinus is doing folks to achieve his overblow. He is not blow bending as we know it. He is bending a blow note that is not typically used or listed on bend charts. He is making the blow pitch fall by dropping the tongue out of the way, opening up and relaxing,.... when it goes as far as it can, the overblow gently sounds.
I hope no one responded to this thread without viewing the Tinus video.
Larry you are a highly respected teacher and player by myself and many others. Your methods work but are not all that's out there.
Let me give an example of throat bending to me. Play the 2 hole draw with a strong diaphragm vibrato. Open big and pull from the depths with tongue out of the way. Now KEEP the vibrato, but bend the note down a step. Go back and forth keeping the tongue down and jaw dropped. The bottom of my tongue follows my throats lead.
Of course you can bend with the tongue but many great players prefer the tone and control of throat bending.
Try this. Play tongued 1/4 notes, 4 on each pitch of the four notes available of the 3 hole draw.
3 draw tah tah tah tah
3 draw 1/2 step bend tah tah tah tah
3 draw 1 step bend tah tah tah tah
3 draw 1 1/2 step bend tah tah tah tah
and back up
My experience says throat benders have no problem with this while most tongue benders do. Lemme know.
I've only had 5 students in my short teaching career. I teach the harp tilt, throat bend, lip block method. So much my students can't do yet....however they have great rich tone.
cqqyrc
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Michael Rubin
933 posts
Aug 27, 2014
1:50 PM
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Apologies Iceman, I see it. We are like twins we think so alike!
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The Iceman
1960 posts
Aug 27, 2014
2:41 PM
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As many times as I've stated that my tongue controls my bends while I keep my throat in a fixed open state (in the pre-yawn attitude) for resonance, still some misinterpret this and suggest that my throat follows my tongue somehow.
Not the case.
Whether I keep it open or keep it closed, it has no effect on the bends I achieve w/tongue control. However, keeping it open is best for tone.
btw, I have no problem with the tongued exercise above.
Advantage to my approach seems to be that my total beginning students can bend to pitch accurately within 2 to 4 weeks of learning the process. (Freaks out those players that insist it takes years to get good bending control).
Their tone is pretty good, too.
Michael, my twin brother from a different mother...we seem to share the same head hair DNA.
harpdude- if your technique works for you, I'm happy for you.
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The Iceman
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groyster1
2658 posts
Aug 27, 2014
2:47 PM
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by trying to develop throat vibrato,I now bend with my throat...in the past I would bend by dropping my tongue to the bottom of my mouth...apparently my throat muscles have become conditioned...unfortunately I still don't have an effective throat vibrato
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WinslowYerxa
705 posts
Aug 27, 2014
7:26 PM
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Throat bending has two components:
-- pulsation of breath, performed by the vocal folds
-- variation in pitch, effected by the tongue
I'm in the camp that takes "throat bending" to be a misnomer. Whatever sensations or conceptions are going on, it's the tongue that in the end does the work of bending. I know we don't all agree, and until we see the ultrasound or MRI or fluoroscopy of the players who insist that they're effecting bends in the throat, the question won't be settled.
For a long time, my throat vibrato included bending by default. When I wanted to apply throat vibrato to a sustained bent note, this was a problem - the bend would break up.
Not liking the sound of using tongue yo-yo-yo type vibrato as a substitute (I'd heard Howard Levy do this), at first I cultivated diaphragm vibrato for bent notes. But then a curious thing happened.
I found that I could separate the pulsation element effected by the vocal folds from the pitch variation effected by the tongue. This allowed me to apply vibrato to sustained bent notes and to control it well
===========
Winslow
SPAH connects the world of harmonica
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
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Milsson
151 posts
Aug 28, 2014
5:35 AM
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Throat bending isn't anything special. It's the name of a bending process of the invisible part of the toungue. We are doing the exact same thing as Larry says(finding spots in the roof of the mouth)BUT we are doing it in the back of the throat were you cant see the toungue.
I've always belived it was the vocalchords but it's the same muscels as you do throat vibrato with.
There is a lot of people telling me i'm wrong doing what i do but when i play other peoples harps they look at the harp and go what? Were is the sound comming from.
And thats the key point for me, my dynamics are bigger and my precision got a lot better when i started with the throat thing.
To play Low tuned harmonicas and bend succsefully with good tone you have to understand how to "move the bend back" in to the throat.
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harpdude61
2083 posts
Aug 28, 2014
5:40 AM
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Winslow we DO need some proof. I bend with my throat. How do I work my throat? Imagine a round sheet covering the hole of my throat, that is attached several places around the circumference. When playing a draw 2 it is stretched tight. When bending the pitch the sheet would stretch tighter. I can see my Adams Apple move. The back of the tongue follows my throat. The tip is relaxed and free...able to tongue notes, flutter, whatever.
By the same token, I can use the tongue to bend the pitch without the throat and apple moving at all. Different sound and personally I lose a little control. Sure you can alter pitch with tongue, but it is a smaller. The control with the trained throat is amazing. I can literally feel the throat muscles working. I teach my students to find their throat muscles by relaxing as much as possible and make the "kuh" sound with the throat.
A "tuh-kuh" lick is another example. Repeat it on 2 draw, then bend down a tone and keep it going. This will help you realize where you bend.
I LOVE doing breath vibrato while bending a pitch with my throat. The tongue is also free for "tahs" if you like. With this method you can be as free as you wish with one element without affecting the other two.
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The Iceman
1963 posts
Aug 28, 2014
6:40 AM
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Perhaps the best proof would be through ultra sound to reveal what is really happening.
If the ultrasound shows throat muscle movement without any tongue engagement for bending, I would change my perspective.
Until then, I am of the same camp as Winslow. Tongue control includes the fact that if it is curved up behind that tip, the tip is still free to do its thing independent of the rest of the tongue. The tongue is the miracle muscle, able to do more than one thing at a time.
Milsson's outlook is interesting in the fact that he considers that area where you can't see the tongue to be the throat movement.
I feel that just because you can't see that back area of the tongue, it is still the tongue movement.
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The Iceman
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harpdude61
2084 posts
Aug 28, 2014
8:40 AM
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Last Edited by harpdude61 on Aug 28, 2014 8:40 AM
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harpdude61
2085 posts
Aug 28, 2014
8:40 AM
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Millson said "To play Low tuned harmonicas and bend successfully with good tone you have to understand how to "move the bend back" in to the throat."
groyster said "by trying to develop throat vibrato,I now bend with my throat...in the past I would bend by dropping my tongue to the bottom of my mouth...apparently my throat muscles have become conditioned"
Greg H said "There is a definite difference for me. Tongue-only bending is done at the front of the mouth -
I feel no constriction at the throat and I am moving the tip of my tongue. Throat bending is done at the back. The tongue still moves but not at the tip. If you can bend in tongue-block position you're probably throat bending."
I'm in the camp with Tinus,Jason, and these guys.
Ice if you ultrasound me, my tongue will move.
It is impossible to open and wide and say "aaahhh" for the doctor so he can look at your throat without your tongue naturally following down and out of the way.
I think a lot of people look for a way to say "no way" since it is not a technique they use or feel.
Sure I use the tongue, but by developing the throat muscles along with diaphragm muscles and learning to relax EVERYTHING as much as possible, I utilize the whole harp energizing instrument that is made available to me. The more I use of this machine that allows me to play harp, the more efficient and relaxed player I become.
I'm not making any more videos to post, but I would love to be a part of a x-ray, ultrasound, tone test/comparison. Let's throw in vibrato, overblows, bending overblows...heck let's even put the stopwatch on a long rich tone. Using the whole big machine you can play a looooong note without circular breathing.
You too have throat muscles to develop! Just say "kuh" as deeply as you can and you will feel them!
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The Iceman
1966 posts
Aug 28, 2014
9:20 AM
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Most excellent, harpdude.
By your own description of comments by those in your camp "Throat bending is done at the back. The tongue still moves, but not at the tip."
So, what your camp is saying is that it is still tongue movement that controls the bend. You just label anything not done by the tip of the tongue as "throat bending", while I prefer to label this same thing as "tongue controlled bending".
Same thing...different moniker. A rose by any other name smells as sweet.
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The Iceman
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harpdude61
2086 posts
Aug 28, 2014
10:24 AM
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Nope. The position of the tongue affects the bend. Foolish to say otherwise.
I'm saying that if you shape the throat to bend the note, then the tongue MUST follow. Try going to the doctor and open wide and say "aaaahhh" without the tongue moving.
You are missing key points. You CAN bend with the tongue without moving the throat........You CANNOT bend with the throat without the tongue moving into a natural bend position.
I'm guessing our tongues are in similar positions for a bend. You moved your tongue. I used my throat and the tongue followed. I think BIG! LOOSE! DEEEEEP!
Can you let the pitch drop until an overblow sounds as Tinus demonstrates?
Please read my descriptions of how throat bending feels to me. I would NEVER make up jibber just to have a debate, as I know you would never disagree just to simply stir the pot.
I have shows the next three days and the grandkids are coming. I enjoy this discussion and will try to check in when I can.
I apologize if I'm not very good at explain what I do. I simply "feel" throat muscles working when I bend. Others do not.
This video is over a year old but I hope it gives somebody an idea of what is available if you choose to throat bend.
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The Iceman
1967 posts
Aug 28, 2014
10:29 AM
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ah well, (sigh), I did my best.
End of my part in this discussion.
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The Iceman
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harpdude61
2087 posts
Aug 28, 2014
1:21 PM
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Did your best? What is it you failed to accomplish? Are you saying you try to make me understand how it really is? I just share what I experience when I play.
I could agree with you if all I felt bending the note was the very back of my tongue and/or throat....but I feel the whole circumference of the throat opening doing the work.
At this time I choose to neither confirm nor deny that I will continue to be a part of this discussion.
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arzajac
1453 posts
Aug 28, 2014
3:42 PM
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"the whole circumference of the throat opening doing the work. "
The throat doesn't do that. It's the tongue that does the work. To put it another way, about half of the circumference of the throat is the tongue.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5kogDrivvQ
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Aug 28, 2014 3:43 PM
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WinslowYerxa
706 posts
Aug 28, 2014
4:19 PM
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That video is of David Barrett in his collaborative study with some researchers at Stanford. Mind you, David is of the "tongue does all the work" school, and this shows that it's true for him.
Even if the throat people posit unlikely metaphors, until someone does some video of one of them, we won't have resolution.
===========
Winslow
SPAH connects the world of harmonica
Deepen your playing at the Harmonica Collective
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Frank
5164 posts
Aug 28, 2014
4:46 PM
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does this give any help?
The amazing scans that reveal exactly what it takes to become a human beatboxer
Overtone singing with X-ray
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 28, 2014 5:41 PM
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1847
2105 posts
Aug 28, 2014
9:52 PM
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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harpdude61
2088 posts
Aug 29, 2014
5:43 AM
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hmmmm..1847...Did I see the Adam's Apple moving on that first bend?
arazajac,,"the throat doesn't do that"? Maybe not for you. Works for me!
Nothing to resolve Winslow.
You guys choose to respond to just parts of what I say...the part that benefits your argument. WHat about the kuh and kah sounds. I guess you do those with your tongue as well??
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harpdude61
2089 posts
Aug 29, 2014
5:46 AM
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David Barrett bends tongue blocked guys and is mainly at TB player. Not at all the embouchure I'm talking about. Of course the tongue will interact more.
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arzajac
1454 posts
Aug 29, 2014
5:52 AM
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Kuh and Kah sounds are made with the back of your tongue closing off your throat. There is no other way to do it. That's the anatomy and physiology of your throat.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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harpdude61
2090 posts
Aug 29, 2014
6:01 AM
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I guess you cough with your tongue too...lol
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Milsson
152 posts
Aug 29, 2014
6:53 AM
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I hope were not gona throw poop at each other over this one more time?
I stated above that it's the toungue that does it but further back but im not al that shure. The more i think about it i get confused. What i do feel is that it's the same "tension" in the throat as when "belting" if you don know what belting is it's when rock singers try to hit those hig screaming notes. Try to sing along with a guns and roses song and you?l know what we are talking about. Axl rose would be a greate throatbender becuase he sings nasal(he got his nose closed) and he is a greate belt singer.
Al in all i? changing my mind again. it's more the back of the troat that closes in on the toungue rather than the toungue going back.
The name belting comes frome the movment in your throat, it's an anology for taking a belt around your throat an ty if of. I BELIVE it's for getting higher airspeed to get the vocalcords to vibrate when they are short and have high tension, like when you try to hit a realy high note.
If you would tell a singer that belts that it's not in your throat but it? the toungue that hits the roof of your mouth he/she would tell you to F off.
I would make a YT if my english wasn so worthless.
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orphan
375 posts
Aug 29, 2014
8:52 AM
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harpdude61, I have been following your approach and at times thought I understood what you mean by using the throat more than the tongue. I experimented, trying to isolate just my throat to change the pitch of a note. I found that I use my tongue at the back of my throat. This gives me a better tone than when I bent a note using my tongue and the middle of the roof of my mouth.
After reading what Milsson wrote, I tried again to isolate my thoat to make the Kuh sound. I was able to do that. It is similar to using the part of my throat when I gargle. (Or just a little bit below that area) I can do that either on inhale or exhale. Am I getting the idea? I'm at work and can't try the harp but I can lower the pitch of the air when I do this. Thank you for your patience in trying to explain to us what you mean by Throat Bending.
Edited to add what is in ( )
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Last Edited by orphan on Aug 29, 2014 12:49 PM
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1847
2107 posts
Aug 29, 2014
9:29 AM
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i really don't have much of an opinion, one way or the other
never gave it any thought.
the video i posted, it looks like the tongue and throat move together,
not sure what would happen if you do not have an adams apple.
i always felt my bends started much lower, in the abdomen, the solar plexus region.
with the throat open ,and the back of the tongue rising to constrict the passage
with the mouth cavity as a resonance chamber.
i just try to hit the right pitch, i don't really think about it.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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arzajac
1455 posts
Aug 29, 2014
11:17 AM
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"I guess you cough with your tongue too...lol"
Yes, you do - mostly. The diaphragm, the accessory muscles of breathing, the larynx and the tongue work together. You can cough with an endotracheal tube in your throat and that doesn't use the throat at all - it's bypassed, but that doesn't sound at all like a Kuh or a Kah (or a *cough* sound). The sound of a *cough* is articulated by the tongue.
An example of an action that closes off the larynx without the cooperation of the tongue would be grunting. But articulating a Kuh or Kah sound needs the tongue. Can't do it without it.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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Milsson
153 posts
Aug 29, 2014
11:30 AM
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It's realy hard in the beginning IF you already know how to bend the "usal" way. My adwise is to learn on the lower registry harps. A, G, LF...
When i had played for a couple of years i had my first lesson with a real teacher. He told me i'm doing it all wrong and have to learn how to bend all over again. It made me kind of pissed but i got it there and then and spent a lot of time perfecting it. When you come to a point when you consider yourself an intermidiet player you have to start think about tone. Wheter you go down the usal road or "our" road is up to you but ether way there are some good players from buth camps out there.
The guy that taught me has studied under filisko, bonfiglio and more... He is schooled in a music university here in sweden so he knows what he is talking about.
The ting this man told me was in the beginning you will not have enough controll and the bend will go thru the floor. It will stal the unbent note and BOOIING you will hit below the lowest note you can bend on that hole. If you can do that "without" moving your tongue GREAT your on your way. Take a mental note of how it feels in your throat and try to control it better.
As a side note I have problem going seemles from for ex 2d to 2d double bend with my throat entirely. That makes me use the tounue AND the throat when i bend. I dont know if all does that but thats how it is for me. The neat thing is that i bend to pitch with my troat and when i move my toungue i can scoop or massage the note.
Side note two. I can't bend blow notes with my throat. Maybe it's impossible or mabe i just suck at it?
Another thing to note about me is that i rarely articulate things with my toungue, i only do that when i want that sound. I articulate with the throat with a short inward cough. I close my throat a split second to build up a backpressor an the realese in to the bend.
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Milsson
154 posts
Aug 29, 2014
11:44 AM
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I made a half nasty video to prove my point. I? sticking my toungue out as far as i can.
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harpdude61
2091 posts
Aug 29, 2014
12:59 PM
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You ARE the man Milsson! THANK YOU!! Total throat bending on video. No x-xray, sonogram, or whatever. Put the tongue out an do it!
Trust me, with his tongue out of the way, his throat was all that was left o bend with!
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Frank
5174 posts
Aug 29, 2014
3:59 PM
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There a some people born without tongues believe it or not...If we could get them a good custom harmonica and a teacher - I'm sure they would figure out some way to manipulate the notes even though they are tongueless...Not sure if you can be born without a throat? :)
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 29, 2014 4:01 PM
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chromaticblues
1605 posts
Aug 30, 2014
5:42 AM
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I totally agree with your philosophy harpdude.
What really happens in there I don't know.
What I do know is just as you explained.
BIG LOOSE DEEP!
There are people that are very good harp players that don't dwell on it, but it certainly is a big part of what I try to do.
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Diggsblues
1516 posts
Aug 30, 2014
8:51 AM
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I tried what Mr. Milsson showed and it seems like the very back of the tongue near the throat changes shape.
It seem like a lot of muscles that are involved.
I have to go for me with economy of movement with just
a small movement of the tongue. Maybe we should a thread of tongue bender and throat benders playing real music.
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groyster1
2660 posts
Aug 30, 2014
10:18 AM
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everytime I read posts on this thread I put a harp in my mouth and throat bend.....my tongue stays on the floor of my mouth...when I first read tony glovers book he said to pull your tongue to the floor of your mouth and/or tilt the harp up....I always did it that way until the last 2 years
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harpdude61
2092 posts
Sep 02, 2014
6:21 AM
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Glad to see my posts have at least made some broaden their horizons and realize this is a playing technique that some may choose to use.
It is very efficient. Less work for bigger sound. Control of pitch is amazing. What I find as well is that you can play all types of notes with minimal embouchure change. Blow, blow bend, draw, draw bend, overblows, overdraws, etc etc...
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Frank
5202 posts
Sep 02, 2014
7:31 AM
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If there is a will, there is a way - his arms are gone at the elbows :)
Last Edited by Frank on Sep 02, 2014 7:32 AM
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Gipsy
97 posts
Sep 02, 2014
1:40 PM
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Just an anatomical fact. There are a whole bunch of voluntary muscle in and around the throat. They help with such activities as breathing and swallowing and talking/singing. The tongue is the most obvious muscle, not only because of it's position and size, but also because it is the easiest one for us to control or use. However that doesn't mean it is the only one we can learn to control. As has already been stated many vocal techniques require the practitioner to acquire new or unnatural throat muscle control to produce the effect. If these individuals can learn to control throat muscle that most of us can't use, it seems entirely logical to me that a harmonica player can similarly learn to control these muscles, and use them beneficially while playing. I suspect the tongue plays a good part in the final throat shape, but I don't find it in any way surprising that some individuals primarily achieve the desired result not by tongue control, but by control of the other voluntary throat muscles.
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harpdude61
2095 posts
Sep 03, 2014
6:27 AM
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Gipsy...AWESOME post!
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The Iceman
1995 posts
Sep 03, 2014
6:54 AM
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Gipsy...
I'm curious.
Can you describe these muscles? If they are voluntary, please suggest exactly how they are controlled, even if they are unnatural.
We can all learn something new here.
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The Iceman
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Gipsy
98 posts
Sep 03, 2014
1:33 PM
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@iceman. I could have described them years ago while doing my medical degree. Now I just remember they are there. I'm gonna give you 2 examples to try to explain what I mean.
Take the simple act of walking. Just considering the leg muscles. As an individual all you do is decide to move one leg forward and the the other. There are tens of muscles in each leg that have to work in complete harmony for it to work. However as an individual we don't have to move each muscle separately. The brain does it for us. However that doesn't mean we can't move those muscles separately if we choos to do so. Contortionists have taught themselves to relax and contract individual muscles and muscle groups to help them achieve their desired altered body shapes.
The same thing applies to the throat. Consider swallowing. There are many muscles involved in this activity. Fortunately we don't have to control them individually or we'd all starve. However this doesn't mean that an individual can't learn to control these muscles on an individual basis. Some peeps can move their Adam's apple when they wish, others can't, however everyone has to move it while swallowing. It's what it does. Take the lips. Unless trained otherwise most everyone close their lips when swallowing. It's part of what the body does. However you can train yourself to swallow without closing your lips. Goodness knows I wish I could do it more often while playing tongue blocked.
The best example is of didgeridoo players who employ circular breathing. They've taught their breathing muscles and throat muscles to perform in a totally unnatural way to enable them to effectively breath in and breath out at much the same time.
Those are the general principles of learning to take control of individual muscles or muscle groups, and the same principles apply to all voluntary muscles including those in the throat.
As for applying such techniques to note bending on the harp. Why shouldn't it work. Goodness knows how many articles and videos I looked at, how many endless hours huffing and puffing I put in, even at one time spending entire sessions looking up at the ceiling while my puppy howled at me, until I finally got one note to move a little.
As far as I can gather, there is no one way to guarantee that a harp student will get to bend notes. If someone has come up with a way that works for him and his students on a consistent basis then very soon all of us will know about it, and try it. If not we'll all go back to what works for us as individuals. I really don't think there's a lot more to add.
PS. I just googled throat muscles. There are 50 pairs of muscles involved in swallowing alone. A few peeps think I'm full of sh-t now, I must have been full of useless sh-t back in the day.
Last Edited by Gipsy on Sep 03, 2014 2:04 PM
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The Iceman
1997 posts
Sep 03, 2014
7:14 PM
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Gypsy..
As a teacher of diatonic harmonica, I can guarantee that my harp student will get to bend notes. Teaching them through tongue placement has proven successful. All my beginning students learn to bend all inhale notes (from hole 1 to 6) to pitch within 2 to 4 weeks of learning this technique. Exhale bends come easy after these initial ones are "owned" by the student. Finally, OB/OD seems to be no big problem for them either.
The reason I asked you to elaborate on what has been called "throat bending" is so that this technique can be quantified and taught. However, nothing in your explanation (nor in explanation of others) has given me even a glimpse into how this approach is useful in teaching, or can even be taught in an effective sense.
The most you have offered is some kind of comparison to other movements that use muscles.
As well, it seems that you do not understand didgeridoo technique.
I play didge and am here to tell you that it is not played by effectively breathing in and breathing out at much the same time. The throat muscles and breathing muscles are not used in a totally unnatural way.
So, even though we understand that there are many throat muscles, no one has come forth with a clear explanation on how to use them to create bends. It seems to be an exercise in blind faith.
So, in summation, if an understanding of throat muscles can not be used to quantify bending notes to pitch and therefore can not be used as a successful teaching aid, as a teacher of harmonica technique, I don't find it to be a valid approach.
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The Iceman
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Milsson
155 posts
Sep 03, 2014
10:51 PM
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@Larry i'm going to figure out what i do and probably make a video. I don't have much time over to do so now so you have to be patient.
The last sentence are going to start a flaming war and you probably know that. But you have a point. A technique that you can't teach shouldn't be on the list for a teacher.
The problem, for me, with presenting this is that people is taking it the wrong way. If I make a video of this people probably just tell me that it's to hard to do and there is no gain in learning it. Thou the technique in it self are easy when you get past the learning curve. Throat vibrato is bitching hard to do for some one that have never played harmonica before due to the fact that you are cutting of/restricting your air stream while inhaling. It's not natural to cut of your breathing and the body is going to fight you in the beginning.
Another dimension of learning this is that you already know how to bend. It's going to affect the learning curve cause your tongue is going to fight you when you try to isolate the throat. I've made the switch and it was a couple of weeks sounding like a total newbie before I got the hang of it.
If you are serious with wanting to explore this I'll make an effort do "teach" it thru text and YT. If you are just throwing sticks in the fire...well then it's just sad.
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Gipsy
99 posts
Sep 04, 2014
1:47 AM
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@iceman. I'm not going to get into this in any detail, but I have suggested 2 techniques you may care to learn to demonstrate my point. Firstly try elevating your Adam's apple without swallowing, and secondly try learn to swallow in a controlled flashion while not closing your lips.
Most importantly I really don't give a flying f-ck whether you find it a valid approach or not. I merely offered an anatomically correct approach to try to explain why there may be some common ground between the various opinions voiced here.
Just a couple of other anatomical facts regarding some posts on this thread. So called diaphragmatic vibrato. The diaphragm is an involuntary muscle. We have no control over it's function at all. It is under the control of the autonomic nervous system. We may feel we have control by actively using our intercostal muscle as part of a breathing exercise, but in no way are we directly controlling the diaphragm.
Also mention was made somewhere of the kuh and kah sounds being made by the back of the tongue. Wrong! They are vocal sounds and as such originate from the vocal chords, and not the tongue.
What we are dealing with here is people's interpretations of what works for them, rather than anatomical fact.
That's it from me. I've no desire to get involved in arguments. I've got better things to do with my time. Fortunately they don't involve me taking myself too seriously, and only occasionally involve harmonica related things.
PS as for the Didgeridoo. It does involve training yourself to use muscles in a different manner. Normally one inhales and exhales through the same passage. Ie breath in and out through the nose, or when a nose is blocked breath in and out through the mouth. By learning to breath in through the nose and out through the mouth one is learning a new pattern of useage of the usual muscles, and then you add in the cheek muscles which play no part in normal breathing.
Last Edited by Gipsy on Sep 04, 2014 2:39 AM
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