walterharp
1443 posts
Jul 08, 2014
11:11 AM
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seems like an endemic problem, maybe BBQ Bob is right :-)
here is an excerpt from an interview with Jimmy Rogers about time and Little Walter, it starts with him talking about Jacobs as the lead in the Aces. The whole interview is pretty interesting.
http://jasobrecht.com/jimmy-rogers-songwriting-muddy-waters-1950s-chicago-blues/
"And then after Walter came in and got that band, well, it wasn’t too hard for them to do it, because that’s what they’d been doin’. But Walter, he wasn’t too good at meditatin’ [mediating] and tryin’ to train guys to play, because he was a follower himself and playin’ that lead instrument. He’d run off a lot, and his timin’ was really kind of rough. We got him pretty well into the timing, because he was playin’ by himself [at first]. When you play music by yourself, you’re playin’ the lead and followin’ and skippin’, and that’s the way he learnt to play. He was good, but he didn’t have his face, really. So we got him down a little bit, got him on the count pretty close, as close as we could get him to be with what he had. So we had fun. We had really a lot of fun."
and here is Jason Ricci talking about how he thought he had good time till he started working with a metronome.
so we all gotta work on it for sure!
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barbequebob
2638 posts
Jul 08, 2014
11:29 AM
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I remember discussing that very same thing while I was gigging with Jimmy Rogers and he mentioned all of that and Muddy and Jimmy helped get Walter's time straightened out, but after he left Muddy, once he got too high or drunk, that's when his time got bad again at times and the session that produced Just Your Fool and Shake Dancer, if you pay attention very carefully, Walter does screw up the time but the band backing him, Lockwood on guitar, David Myers on bass and Fred Below, a real crack bunch of musicians caught it real quick and hid the screw up quite well, but to someone who pays very close attention to every detail, which the vast majority of pros ALWAYS do, it's right there.
Like it or not, one of the biggest reasons why harp players get dissed (and DESERVEDLY so) is because too often, their time absolutely, flat out sucks big time!
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Littoral
1117 posts
Jul 08, 2014
12:16 PM
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"...seems like an endemic problem".
Is It?
The design allows for being in the right key and easy chords to sound like you know what you're doing, initially. That's a problem of false security that would pronounce other limitations (time etc.).
Is there anything about harp that magnifies (endemic) time issues -how it's typically played or...?
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jpmcbride
64 posts
Jul 08, 2014
12:45 PM
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@Littoral
I think bad timing is more prevalent with harp players than other instruments, simply because the harp is generally used as a lead instrument not a rhythm instrument. Don't get me wrong, I've heard guitar players with bad timing, but most have had to play rhythm guitar and have learned to keep time - otherwise they would not be on stage playing. And of course bass players and drummers have to be able to keep time.
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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barbequebob
2640 posts
Jul 08, 2014
12:57 PM
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Jpmcbride's last sentence is proof of the importance and value of having a great rhythm section (AKA drummer and bass player, plus a guitar player that can actually play good rhythm) often times can hide the faults of many harp players' time, unless it is so god awful that nothing can hide it, but crappy rhythm sections will make even the finest of musicians look totally like crap.
From just about every great pro drummer I've ever met in my life, they almost universally will tell you a harp player with great time is always fun to work with but a harp player whose time sucks is a non stop nightmare that they wind up working incredibly hard to try and hide their constant time screw ups and when the time gets screwed up, so does the groove, and on that, this is where I refuse to cut any harp player any slack at all.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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jnorem
358 posts
Jul 08, 2014
1:32 PM
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There are all kinds of musicians, playing all varieties of instruments, who have lousy time. They're called amateurs.
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Call me J
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Littoral
1118 posts
Jul 08, 2014
1:32 PM
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Last Edited by Littoral on Jul 08, 2014 1:33 PM
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BluesJacketman
163 posts
Jul 08, 2014
1:55 PM
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I have a big problem.
I cannot for the life of me keep good time without a drummer.
For me; No drummer=No time. Its sucks.
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dougharps
675 posts
Jul 08, 2014
2:14 PM
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Time is an issue I continue to work to improve. I have noticed that a good bass player is more important than the drummer. A mediocre drummer can follow a good bass player's groove.
Edited so the last sentence above makes sense!
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jul 08, 2014 8:51 PM
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Gnarly
1054 posts
Jul 08, 2014
2:19 PM
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My time is great!
More proof I am not a harp player!
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STME58
972 posts
Jul 08, 2014
2:27 PM
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Whenever I hear bass player and Metronome I think of this,
Setting the metronome to 5 over 4 is a great way to check you timing on all 4 beats but pretty hard to get used to at first.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 08, 2014 2:28 PM
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walterharp
1444 posts
Jul 08, 2014
3:01 PM
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I also thought I had pretty good time till really critically listening to live recordings of our band, usually ok but when it got late, and I was tired, maybe a beer or two, and the sound levels came up making in harder to hear myself, my time went off for sure. As a result I really try to concentrate more, and if it is getting loud, check the drum sticks visually to check my time. I know time is supposed to live with the bass, but it is hard to get those visual cues, and I can trust our drummer to lock in with the bass player. I also try to record myself against jam tracks or band in a box to check and work on my time.. seems to help a little.
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Goldbrick
520 posts
Jul 08, 2014
3:12 PM
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As a drummer- I play a lot of 4 on the floor in my shuffles so that guys can feel the beat.
When I play guitar or harp I watch the rhythm guitar or other band members "tells" ie right hand tempo or listen for that 1 on the bass drum. I f I get lost i hang on the the root of the chord til back in the swing
Lots of harp players because they slide in an out of the song arent paying attention to the band.
its like a conversation where you are only concerned with what you have to say and dont listen to the other person speak bad habits die hard.
get out the damn metronome-put the jam trax away until you got it straight
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STME58
975 posts
Jul 08, 2014
3:22 PM
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I played a jam last weekend and I found watching the guitarist, as Goldbrick mentioned, quite helpful.
I am curious about your comment on metronome vs jam trax Goldbrick. I normally work with a metronome but I would have expected a jam track to be as good.
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Goldbrick
521 posts
Jul 08, 2014
3:36 PM
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Too much distraction in jam trax that covers your errors.
A metronome teaches concentration and discipline-its frustrating because you cant hide your mistakes but you develop your internal clock
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CarlA
565 posts
Jul 08, 2014
3:55 PM
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While there are genuinely crappy harp players, my honest belief is that most of the timing issues are due to not being able to hear yourself on stage. Stage volume is too loud(guitarist, drummer, and bass players fault), and the lonesome harp player is viewed as a crappy musician.
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Rgsccr
267 posts
Jul 08, 2014
4:33 PM
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Great video from Jason Ricci - really gives some useful and specific information on ways to work with a metronome. Just watching the video and listening to the beat of the metronome I could feel my time get better over the course of the video (not permanently). Thanks for posting it Walter.
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walterharp
1445 posts
Jul 08, 2014
6:09 PM
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yeah, you are probably right Goldbrick, and who knows if the jam tracks have good time .. the band in the box is useful because you can get very minimal if you want (say just a drum and a sparse bass line), but leave the chord changes in there, so you can re listen quickly to your recording and be sure you are hitting the chord changes, and you can then slide up the tempo if you want, it has been particularly useful for me on what Shellist on the other video called playing ahead of the beat, that is anticipating the chord changes with notes from that chord, and being sure to get that down. the recording is good even with just a metronome cause even though you might think you are on, given a close and subjective listen while not concentrating on the playing might tell you otherwise.
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Frank
4780 posts
Jul 08, 2014
6:49 PM
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Jam tracks are fantastic aids for learning - if they are used with that understanding "in mind" that > your using them to (learn something).
That said, they ARE NOT a substitute for using a metronome.
Metronomes are excellent to use and are not boring...
If someone may be having a problem enjoying playing with a metronome...Look within!
All you need to bring is some discipline, an imagination and a groove in you soul.
Think about it...the metronome is giving you perfect clicks to play and mess with - whats not to love :)
Remember, I'm speaking as a mere dilettante - so careful with my advise :)
Here is a BT that is good to practice time with :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 08, 2014 7:35 PM
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Komuso
341 posts
Jul 08, 2014
8:55 PM
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A drum machine (or drum n' bass machine like zoom RT223) is far better than a metronome for rhythmical training.
It can do everything a metronome can (and more) but also has the added value of musicality beyond simple clicks n' beeps.
Programming your own beats is also a good way to learn a little more about core elements of the groove.
eg:
Bass Grooves: Develop Your Groove and Play Like the Pros in Any Style
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Jul 08, 2014 8:56 PM
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Frank
4781 posts
Jul 09, 2014
4:20 AM
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Who needs a drummer :)
These guys have a "drum machine" and set it up for breaks and fills - really amazing :)
here you go :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 09, 2014 4:40 AM
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Gnarly
1055 posts
Jul 09, 2014
7:04 AM
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Bass drum at :49 is a little late.
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barbequebob
2642 posts
Jul 10, 2014
10:38 AM
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A big part of the problem with too many harp players, especially in the open jams, is they are far too often fixated on the solos ONLY and too often that's the only damned thing they're paying attention to, often thinking that's gonna save their bacon and that's a HUGE, fundamental mistake.
If your time is horrible, absolutely NOTHING you will play will EVER groove. If you are on a bandstand with a really sold rhythm sections that never screws up the time, they're the ones hiding all of your faults and making you look 500% better than what you are, and that not only applies to harp players, but whatever instrument is being used for playing leads as well and that's a cold, hard, brutal truth you can't run away from and the minute you have either a drummer or bass player whose time sucks, EVERY one of your warts has absolutely no place to hide because crappy rhythm sections make EVERYONE on the band stand look and sound like absolute total crap.
I've heard so many players tell me that even though they can;t count in a tune, once the band kicks in their time gets better, but all they're doing is blatantly lying to themselves because if you're time is really good, you'd have ZERO problems counting in a tune.
This isn't something anyone learns overnight and from personal experience, I can attest to that. Working with a metronome helps a lot but what also helps out plenty is being around musicians who know this stuff cold and are willing to coach you and be brutally honest with you every time you screw up and in the vast majority of open jams regardless of where they are in the world, don't bet on improving your time there because 50-75% of the jammers often times are gonna have horrible time as well and you're not gonna learn a damned thing being around them much and if anything, if you're around too many musicians with crappy time, the only thing they'll help turn you into is another crappy musician, which I know sounds harsh, but it's the truth.
What Ronnie Shellist's video really explains isn't playing ahead or behind the beat, but in fact, what beat in a measure where a phrase is starting from. What he says is ahead of the beat is actually playing the phrase starting off the 4 or the "and" of the 4 just before the very 1st beat of the following measure and what he calls behind the beat is really playing of the 2nd beat (called the 2), and that's entirely different than what playing ahead, on top, or behind the beat actually is.
As to who is the worst player that's not a lead player to have on the bandstand with horrible time. There are plenty of arguments against having a crappy drummer or bass player being worse than the other but having either one or worse, both of them will do your band huge amounts of harm and if the band ain't groovin', people are gonna be leaving the club because they will always make any band, even if they have what you believe are the greatest lead players in the world sound like some of the world's worst jam hacks anyone has ever had the absolute displeasure of hearing and anyone who thinks great lead players are gonna save their band's behind are totally thinking foolishly here and just about every pro musician regardless of genre will ALL tell you the same damned thing!!!
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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DukeBerryman
393 posts
Jul 10, 2014
11:45 AM
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My favorite metronome is an app on my iPad that has flashing lights. I mute the sound, and then just follow the light flashes.
It's like watching the drummer while playing with a band.
PS: I'd rather have perfect time and play the wrong note than play the right note at the wrong time
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Frank
4789 posts
Jul 10, 2014
1:40 PM
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A fast track way to get your timing straight is to stop relating to it as an Abstract Concept - it's not tasteless, look at your windshield wipers...Time is everywhere, and most delicious when there is absolute silence. Yes, it is a serious "concept" and even this paragraph can have musical timing applied and tied into triplets, half notes, add space galore....So, remember to subtract the abstract from perceptive time and you won't lack the fact that timing tact is the reverse of running backwards around a timid musical track - Time, being a simple inclusion of reliable illusion not to be confused with syncopated intrusion, where space is divided and dynamics collided with beats of 3,1,4 plus 2...Don't cause repulse with an inconsistent pulse and you are not a cheater if you calculate the meter, for time can be bent and subdivision is heaven sent, unless you turn the beat around :)
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 10, 2014 4:39 PM
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