harpdude61
2057 posts
Jun 30, 2014
3:18 PM
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Rather than explain I made a short video. I have an open mind to be corrected.
When I overblow I DO feel it initiating in the throat and it is undeniable that you see the throat move in the video. YES, my tongue moves as an effect of the throat moving. If you move your arm, your hand will move too. I can move my tongue without moving the throat but the opposite is not true.
So if the tongue arcs up as I reshape my throat to overbend, I no longer have a straight shot for my airflow directly into the harp as I do on a standard blow note with jaw dropped and tongue down and out of the way. It most go up and over.
Thanks for commenting.
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Last Edited by harpdude61 on Jun 30, 2014 3:38 PM
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harpwrench
882 posts
Jun 30, 2014
3:48 PM
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You can redirect it wherever you want to harpdude but the reed couldn't care less. Turn your harp upside down and see for yourself when the OB plays exactly the same.
Last Edited by harpwrench on Jul 02, 2014 6:33 AM
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harpdude61
2058 posts
Jun 30, 2014
5:23 PM
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Thanks harpwrench. I understand how the reeds interact with each other on bends and that one completely stops for overbends.
I still feel like I am partly correct. If you adjust the mouth shape (whatever your technique) to proper resonance to attain the overblow, then due to the reshaping of the inside of the mouth, the air flow would have to take a different route. This has no effect on the reed as you say, but could be a helpful technique for a student trying to learn overbends.
Maybe Jason and the others that taught the "straw in the milkshake" method were simply using a parlor trick to teach the student to reshape to proper resonance?
So...The air flowing over the roof of my mouth on an overdraw does not reshape my resonator, but rather the reshaping of the resonator causes the airflow to redirect over the roof of my mouth.
I think we both make sense, but maybe I have cause and effect backwards. I can even feel the roof of the mouth drying out somewhat on a sustained overdraw because of the air flow.
As I bend the overblow up I feel the throat constricting, which arcs the tongue a bit more, which narrows the air passage against the roof of the mouth.
While we are on this harpwrench.. I love the physics behind harmonica. What is happening to the reed that is sounding as an overblow is being bent up? Is it shortened some way. Has to be different that a typical draw bend where the reeds work together.
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harpwrench
884 posts
Jun 30, 2014
7:40 PM
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Maybe someone can do the high speed camera thing to observe an overblow bending up.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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STME58
960 posts
Jul 01, 2014
12:48 AM
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I have wondered how an overblow relates to the way a reed sounds on a Bawu. This is completely controlled by downstream resonance. The plenum chamber in front of the reed does a pretty good job of uncoupling anything you do with the embouchure. The sound is determined by the breath force and the number of holes uncovered on the pipe. A very light breath force can cause the pitch to jump down a partial, similar to the way a recorder does. Are you aware of any published comparisons between the Bawu reed and an overblown harmonica reed??
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Gnarly
1043 posts
Jul 01, 2014
1:02 AM
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Bawu who?
Steve, are you holding out on us?
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Kaining
54 posts
Jul 01, 2014
3:49 AM
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"If you move your arm, your hand will move too"
Funny you say that.
Now punch.
If you punch by moving your arm, chance are you are gonna do a big ugly drunken swing.
Now, if you are thinking of moving your hand to punch, you will probably do something that look a lot more like a jab.
And it is very important when you are punching for a lots of reason.
First and foremost, it's the difference between mansaughter and a simple fight. As the jab shake the brain (i am gonna assume you hit the jaw with it, otherwise you just broke your first), the opponent will fall on his knee.
You just hit the guy.
The drunken swing however is also a push, you hit and then you push the guy and most of the time, he fall on his head on whatever was behind (table corner, concrete) resulting in a concussion, a cauma or death.
Same action, punching. Same result, hitting someone. Consequences are like night and day however and it all comes from the intent of moving your arm or your hand.
Now back to overblow, the previous post just explained why changing the resonator (shape of the mouth) is crucial for overblow.
I do think you should just move your mouth and never, ever use your throat. The back muscle of the tongue will make the throat move but thinking of moving the throat to activate the tongue is a waste of time.
The tongue act as a piston.
Best way to use one is to let it works on it's own and not trying to push the wall behind it to push it.
By moving directly your tongue, you'll be more precise. Being in tune will be easier. You'll gain velocity and fluidity too...and multiple overbend will be easier.
Hitting dirrectly a double overbend, bending it uppward to the tripple (or downward it to the single) and unbending it back to the double can be easily done if you move your tongue the right way.
Also, i don't know for you but fast movement of the throat to move my tongue makes me unable to breath with my diaphragm like i would.
On the other hand, being completly relaxed and just moving my tongue to bend and overbend allow me to have a better control over abdominal breathing and it helps my tone a lot.
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The Iceman
1795 posts
Jul 01, 2014
4:50 AM
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By keeping the throat always open (as in a pre-yawn) and focusing on the tongue position, it seems easier to create and control bends, as the tongue can aim at specific target points on the roof of the mouth to help quantify and pin point the bends.
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The Iceman
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Frank
4745 posts
Jul 01, 2014
5:05 AM
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Same with tongue blocked blow bends...
The Tongue being a very strong muscle >
will easily initiate a TB blow bend , exactly the same way as the tongue is used (the back of it raising and lowering) to manipulate your LB/pucker blow bends.
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 01, 2014 5:08 AM
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harpdude61
2059 posts
Jul 01, 2014
6:40 AM
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I use my throat to overblow because this frees my tongue up to do "tah tahs" and what ever else.
I'm wasting my time Kaining? I have no trouble bending (blow or draw) or overbending. Bending that 6 ob up three more 1/2 steps didn't seem like a big deal in the video..did it? Being in tune is never a problem.
I talked with Buddha about my techniques before he passed and more recently Jason on SKYPE. Thumbs up from both. So who are you?
I found many forum members respectfully disputed my opinions, so I started posting short videos. I learned from harpwrench by doing so. Maybe someone else learned something.
You don't need a webcam to post a video..a smart phone will do. Show me show me show me!
Kaining, I can't tell if you are serious or just trying to provoke me. How do you know I will be more precise? Wasting my time?..lol
I will add that by using the throat for blow and draw bends, as well as overbends, allows me to play fast tongued notes. Try playing the four pitches of the 3 hole draw. Go up and down tonguing each pitch four times as 1/4 notes. How did it go?
Waiting on the video patiently??
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Pistolcat
649 posts
Jul 01, 2014
7:02 AM
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Hey Harpdude, I don't know if I'm helping but I read Kainings remark about waste of time as it is the way of thinking about your throat to overbend is slower than thinking about moving your tongue. Not that it's "all" a waste of time.
I believe actually neither of you actually think when you are playing, because that is a waste of time and will throw your timing. I believe you just do. Whether you feel it comes from the throat or back of your tongue I think that it's more a way to visualise the action, really.
I pictur myself shooting a beam of yellowish-green light from my diaphragm through my harp and manipulate it with my oral pathway. Dunno if anyone else can see it though...
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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Frank
4747 posts
Jul 01, 2014
7:19 AM
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I speaking here as a non- OBer, so it may not pertain...
And I doubt this is news to a lot of players, but here goes anyway :)
Though the throat muscles may be involved in bending, The throat appears to be totally dependent on what the tongue has done or is doing for the throat to initiate its manipulative abilities.
The tongues positioning is the key that unlocks the throats potential to work with a bend...
Without the tongues muscular maneuvering skills and it's ability o "hold a stiff position" - the hope of doing all the amazing bending the harmonica is capable of would be drastically limited - if even possible at all.
Though the throat is extremely important, it must rely on the tongues guidance/support and ability to "anchor itself in different stiff positions" in order for the throat to take advantage of messing around with bends.
Last Edited by Frank on Jul 01, 2014 7:44 AM
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The Iceman
1797 posts
Jul 01, 2014
8:03 AM
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Pistolkatt...imagery of light from diaphragm up is a great visualization.
I've used similar types of suggestions to students over the years to great success.
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The Iceman
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harpdude61
2060 posts
Jul 01, 2014
8:21 AM
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Frank, your first sentence was spot on!
Do you need your tongue to say kah or kuh or gah or guh? Shape your throat to make these sounds and the tongue obeys and follows nicely.
I bet this guy could bend an overblow 7 or 8 1/2 steps.
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STME58
961 posts
Jul 01, 2014
9:20 AM
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Imagery can be very useful. The light imagery is good because you can not confuse it with something that can really happen. I thinks sometimes when imagery involving moving the tongue or throat is used, it can be successful in achieving the result even though the muscles we imagine moving are not moving in the way we imagine it.
Gnarly, according to Pat Missin's web sit the Bawu is well known, but I guess that is a relative thing. It is an easy instrument for a harmonica player to pick up, at least a a basic level. It is diatonic, not terribly expensive, and relies heavily on control of breath force.
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STME58
962 posts
Jul 01, 2014
9:20 AM
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Imagery can be very useful. The light imagery is good because you can not confuse it with something that can really happen. I thinks sometimes when imagery involving moving the tongue or throat is used, it can be successful in achieving the result even though the muscles we imagine moving are not moving in the way we imagine it.
Gnarly, according to Pat Missin's web sit the Bawu is well known, but I guess that is a relative thing. It is an easy instrument for a harmonica player to pick up, at least a a basic level. It is diatonic, not terribly expensive, and relies heavily on control of breath force.
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Frank
4749 posts
Jul 01, 2014
9:29 AM
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Right that's how I see it too...once the tongue has done it's job of arranging itself for the bending to occur and be produced, I will use throat manipulation to do things with the note that the tongue has control over... - it becomes a sympathetic joining of the two :)
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CarlA
557 posts
Jul 01, 2014
9:41 AM
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"Frank
4749 posts
Jul 01, 2014
9:29 AM the tongue and the throat - it becomes a sympathetic joining of the two :)"
Not since the introduction of Combos has there ever been a more perfect harmony between two such dissonant variables.
Well stated Fank-lol
Last Edited by CarlA on Jul 01, 2014 9:42 AM
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WinslowYerxa
640 posts
Jul 01, 2014
9:53 AM
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Why do you need you throat to make T and G sounds? I do it with my tongue.
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Winslow
Plunge into the SPAH Experience, August 5-9, 2014
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Kingley
3624 posts
Jul 01, 2014
10:01 AM
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When I play an overblow all I do is use the exact same shape and tongue position as the draw bend on the hole. I play overblows on holes 4,5 &6. I play them all tongue blocked. I only ever lip purse/block the blow bends on holes 8, 9 &10.
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harpdude61
2062 posts
Jul 01, 2014
11:34 AM
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I guess I'm wrong again. Total failure. Sorry for causing problems or confusing anyone. When no one agrees and all disagree I must be wrong.
I'll keep practicing, play my four gigs a month, and leave you boys alone.
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www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
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STME58
963 posts
Jul 01, 2014
1:11 PM
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This is a confusing topic in part because it is not well understood. Some folks have a method that works from them and in many cases is is a method that did not work for someone else. There is usually a little something to be learned in each of these threads, even if they may become a bit contentious.
I learn a bit and am encourage to try an dexplore new things with each thread.
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harpwrench
885 posts
Jul 01, 2014
1:46 PM
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Edited after realizing I've likely jumped in over my head on physics terminology. Don't want to provide bad info.
Last Edited by harpwrench on Jul 02, 2014 6:53 AM
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timeistight
1605 posts
Jul 01, 2014
2:10 PM
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Joe, I haven't heard of "resonance leaking" before. How does that work?
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harpwrench
886 posts
Jul 01, 2014
3:49 PM
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Not sure, Vern the resident engineer on harp-l has posted about it quite a bit.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
High performance harmonicas.
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ridge
530 posts
Jul 01, 2014
4:01 PM
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@Harpdude - I admire your dedication to your explanation. I know you've gone through lengths to explain and demonstrate your particular way of playing.
I'm sitting here overblowing without trying to involve my tongue much and I find it quite difficult. Now I can accept that maybe I'm not doing it right as I haven't put the time in. Fair enough.
To Harpwrench's point, though, I can play the harp upside down, right side up, sideways and actuate the overblow just as easily when I approach it the way I normally attack my overblows. This is a phenomenon that has interested me for a few years. For a period of time, I thought perhaps the fact that I play the harp upside down attributes to easier overblows. This isn't true because I always aim my air the same way regardless of how the harp is oriented.
My personal preference is to use my tongue to focus the air for actuating, sustaining, and bending my overblows/overdraws. As long as they sound good; it doesn't matter how you do them! :D
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Ridge's YouTube
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SuperBee
2098 posts
Jul 01, 2014
4:10 PM
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It's an oldie but a goodie: correlation doesn't equal causation.
But if your visualisation of light, or airflow, or throat shaping or tongue humping (! Um...) does the job, who cares...
It's a little like 1847 said when the guitarist saw him bring his champ to the gig and asked 'who are you going to please with that?'
Whatever does it for you, is cool, for you.
Imho
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harpdude61
2063 posts
Jul 02, 2014
4:40 AM
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Thanks for your comments ridge. I'm not saying mine is best. Just sharing what works for me.
IMHO..If a player holds the harp level and plays in the front of his mouth, then the throat techniques I describe do not work well at all. If you tilt as dramatic as I do,drop the jaw, and take the harp in very deep, then a conditioned throat controls as much as you want. I too can turn the harp upside down and it works as well for overblows.
Harpwrench....I'm not saying airflow direction affects reeds. I'm saying if you alter size or shape of resonance chamber, then airflow direction will change. Throw a barrel in an open round wind tunnel and air flow direction and pressure change. Same thing happens when I reshape my throat to overbend which causes my tongue to arc up and block direct airflow to the harp. Simple physics.
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www.facebook.com/catfishfryeband
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