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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
help ! confused different position blues playing
help ! confused different position blues playing
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mac1012
31 posts
May 18, 2014
4:01 AM
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can someone help me out with this please
I was looking at a harp site and it had some blues jamming tracks and it said play key of G play c cross harp which after searching on net and looking in my book I worked out the start point was -2 -3 4 -4 -5 6 and when I jammed along keeping to those holes had a lot of fun
then I saw another track saying key of D minor use c harp 3rd position staring on -4 but where do I go from there working out which holes to use ???
and if on the first jam in key of G if I had a key of G harmonica what position would I use to play along and where would I start ?? would it be blow hole 4 ? making my head hurt lol
Although I think I may have worked it out a bit is it a matter of looking at a diatonic diagram of the notes produced by the holes and whatever key the song is in starting on the hole that produces the key note and then playing holes/notes, blow and or draw that are included in the key of the song ?
so that's how you play different keys on a c harp ? and the easier option is to buy the required key harmonica and play in first position hole 4 ?
hope that makes sense I looked at the first jam which I play cross harp on c harmonica and it plays all the notes in the key of G except A think I might be getting somewhere !!
Last Edited by mac1012 on May 18, 2014 4:05 AM
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mac1012
32 posts
May 18, 2014
4:14 AM
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had another look at playing D minor which starts on draw four and the notes for that key are blow and draw up to and including 7 with a draw bend on seven I think ? so if I was jamming to the track in d minor I keep to those holes not meaning I have to play all the notes but keeping within that range ? and bending whatever sounds ok ? lol
Last Edited by mac1012 on May 18, 2014 4:15 AM
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SuperBee
1997 posts
May 18, 2014
5:33 AM
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I dunno that 1st position is an easier option. The reason 2nd position is so popular for blues is that it's easier to get important 'blues scale' notes.
That's an over-simplification.
What you say in OP is basically on the right track, but also an over simplification. I gotta run, sorry. Someone will elaborate for sure.
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SuperBee
1998 posts
May 18, 2014
5:38 AM
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Try draw 4, draw 5, blow 6, draw bend 6, draw 6, blow 7, draw 8
Compare to draw 2, draw half step bend 3, blow 4, draw bend 4, draw 4, draw 5, blow 6.
The first is the 3rd pos blues scale. A on your G Harp.
The second is 2nd pos blues scale. D on you G harp.
Now try and find that scale in first position. G on your G harp.
It's trickier.
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dougharps
611 posts
May 18, 2014
8:16 AM
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Although this may not receive approval from many on the list, my suggestion would be this:
Put on a track of blues in G and play the C harp until you are hitting the notes that fit.
Put on a track of minor blues in Dm and play the C harp until you are hitting the notes that fit.
Repeat often...
Just listening and exploring the notes can take you far. Tab is a learning tool, and theory will be needed down the road if you want to progress musically, but listening and learning by doing will get you started.
You can revisit theory after you have learned a bit about the harp and where the sounds are found. Don't neglect theory, but just learn the instrument and learn to listen, first.
Just my two cents...
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Doug S.
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WinslowYerxa
588 posts
May 18, 2014
9:21 AM
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In any position, knowing the notes of the home chord gives you a launching pad and a place to come home to.
In second position (Playing in G on a C-harp) your home chord is Draw 1,2,3,4, with Draw 2 being the home note. (Blow 6 and Blow 9 are also home notes, with the ther notes of the chord being a combination of chord notes and other notes.)
In third position (playing in D on a C-harp), your home chord is Draw 4, 5, and 6, and also Draw 8, 9, and 10. draw 4 and Draw 8 are your home notes. However, the draw notes in 4, 5, and 6are the ones that bend. The draw notes below Hole 4 are a different chord.
In first position (playing in C on a C-harp) all of the blow notes from 1 to 10 are your home chord., with Blow 1, 4, 7, and 10 being the home notes. However, the ones that bend are on Holes 7-10.
Melodies and licks don't always start on the home note, but they very often end on the home note, and the home note often gets a lot of emphasis. Once you learn to pick it out by ear, you can use it as a reference point to put the other notes into context.
I explain this stuff on my books, Harmonica For Dummies, and Blues Harmonica For Dummies.
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Winslow
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Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on May 18, 2014 9:25 AM
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mac1012
33 posts
May 18, 2014
1:06 PM
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thanks for your replies an interesting comments I gues I am aiming for a bit of suck it and see but also for me understanding some of the theory and working out the positions and what holes to play has helped me a lot and gives me a frame work to start from, my blues book gives the cross harp scale on my c harmonica that has helped a lot in understanding the second postion and I can see why (a bit I think) why for blues the second position is preferred as opposed to playing g first position on a g harp
Last Edited by mac1012 on May 18, 2014 1:07 PM
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dougharps
612 posts
May 18, 2014
2:29 PM
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I think that playing it and learning to hear the notes and how they fit with the chord changes of the backing track is really important, so go for it! The more you play, the more the layout of the harp will become automatic.
That said, Winslow's books are REALLY good and comprehensive. They may be "Dummies" series books, but his books are comprehensive and include advanced information in addition to clear beginner instructions. He knows his stuff, and he is a good teacher and a really good player in many different genres of music. I recommend his books highly to anyone wanting to learn diatonic harmonica.
Good Luck!
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Doug S.
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jpmcbride
53 posts
May 18, 2014
9:23 PM
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Mac1012,
The 2nd position blues scale is:
-2, -3', 4, -4', -4, -5, 6
You can play the exact same blues scale in 3rd position:
-4, -5, 6, -6', -6, 7, -8
Try playing the 2nd position scale on a D harp. The scale will be in the key of A.
Now try the 3rd position scale on a G harp. It will also be in the key of A. Same exact notes.
Now you might ask, why bother to learn 3rd position if its just the same notes as 2nd position? Here are a few reasons:
(1) I just showed the blues scale in both positions. There are plenty of other notes nearby that can be used.
(2) Each position has its own "feel". This comes about due to notes that are adjacent, the blow draw patterns, which notes are bent and unbent, etc...
(3) The 2nd position scale has a bent 3 draw that is sometimes called the blue 3rd - not because its on the 3 hole, but because its the 3rd note of the major scale. Blues players often play this note as a partial bend, in-between tones. In 3rd position this note is on the 5 draw and is the flat 3rd without any bending. This makes the scale sound very minor and is why 3rd position works so well with minor key songs.
Have fun exploring these scales and don't be afraid of 3rd position. Too many new players stay away from 3rd thinking its hsrd when in fact its actually easier than 2nd.
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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mac1012
34 posts
May 18, 2014
10:39 PM
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thanks everyone for your helpful replies and jim what you said and how you said it was really helpful
if I was having guitar lessons the first thing I would be learning would be scales so I don't see any harm in getting a grasp of them for harmonica in my blues book tuition the foundation is the blues scale 2nd position on c harp I know it is not an exact science , jim as you mentioned trying same 2 positions on different harps to give me different keys do you as a rule play the same sequence of blows draws what I mean is is second position scale always -2 -3' 4 -4' -5 6 as a foundation on dif harps ? hope that makes sense
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Pistolcat
624 posts
May 19, 2014
9:54 AM
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Picture Google "circle of fifths". Look at the C, this is your first position on a c harp. If you move one step to the right you will hit G, this is your second position on a c harp. If move yet another step you'll come to D. This is your third position on a C harp. Now keep going all the steps around. The last, twelfth step will be F, twelfth position on a C harp.
Now start on G. This is first position on a G harp. D is second and so on. On a g harp twelfth position will be C.
On all (richter tuned) harps in any key your second position will start on draw 2, an third on draw 1 and 4 and twelfth on draw 5 and so on.
Learn to use and get a feel for the circle of fifths.
Also go to overblow.com and click on the tab scale finder. It is a immensely useful tool, IMO.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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jpmcbride
54 posts
May 20, 2014
4:31 PM
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@Mac1012
If I understand what you're asking, the answer is yes. The blues scale (or any scale for that matter) is always the same sequence of blow/draw/hole pattern regardless of the key of harmonica. This makes it easy to get started because once you learn a scale on harmonica, you can automatically play it in any key. Guitar is the same way, once you learn the fingering for a scale you can move it around on the fretboard and play in any key. Other instruments don't work this way. For example, horn players have to learn their scales in all 12 keys because the fingerings are different for each one. Same thing with the chromatic harmonica (if you want to play all keys ona single C chromatic).
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Jim McBride
www.bottleoblues.com
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