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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
ET vs Just vs Compromise
ET vs Just vs Compromise
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Philosofy
547 posts
May 11, 2014
7:50 PM
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Are there any videos out there that show the subtle differences between these tunings? Has anyone taken the time to take one type of harp, and show these tunings off with the same riffs or licks?
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dougharps
610 posts
May 11, 2014
8:50 PM
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I am not aware of any videos, but here is some audio:
Pat Missin intonation MP3s
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on May 11, 2014 8:51 PM
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JInx
771 posts
May 12, 2014
10:08 AM
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Yamaha makes keyboards that, with the click of a button, can switch to many different tuning schemes. I went down to the music store and experimented with the PSR-S650. It's very easy to hear the change in quality when you can switch between tunings on the fly. I was amazed to find such depth in the subtle variations between tunings.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by JInx on May 12, 2014 10:21 AM
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DukeBerryman
379 posts
May 12, 2014
11:04 AM
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@Jinx Read this great book on tuning, esp piano tuning:
How Equal Temperament Ruined Harmony and Why You Should Care
Also available as a digital book.
But that Yamaha keyboard would have been so helpful while reading the book to hear the differences. I ended-up corresponding with the author, and he was not aware of what tuning freaks we harmonica players are. He has his own tuning scheme that he recommends, even for harmonicas.
His main argument in the book is that it's a mistake to tune a piano to ET, and then have all other instruments tune to the piano. Ideally, you tune to one another, and in a perfect word, the tuning of the piano changes to match the group.
Last Edited by DukeBerryman on May 12, 2014 11:05 AM
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WinslowYerxa
582 posts
May 12, 2014
11:21 AM
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Tuning to one another is fine for guitars and such, and for electronic keyboards.
But then there are harmonicas and then accordions and then pianos and then church organs, none of which can be tuned on the fly. (Harmonicas are the easiest of this bunch to retune but still require a lot more time than a fiddle or a banjo.)
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Winslow
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DukeBerryman
380 posts
May 12, 2014
11:24 AM
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@WinslowYerxa That's why in a string ensemble, you probably get the best harmonies. That's why chamber music sounds so damn good.
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STME58
809 posts
May 12, 2014
11:47 AM
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@Dukeberryman,
I came across and interesting review of the book you mentioned. It put tht book on my "to Read" list although I have not obtained it yet.
Slate Book Review
This excerpt from the review reinforces what you said about the sting ensemble, particularly the fretless strings;
"How do the travails of keyboard temperament apply to instruments without fixed tuning, like violins, trombones, flugelhorns, and the human voice? They don't apply at all. Most of the time violinists, et al., tune by ear, on the fly, note by note, and chord by chord. That's why a string quartet or an a cappella choir can be better in tune with nature than a guitar or a piano can."
Check out this video at 54:54 where there is a discussion and demonstration of the difference between and note in tune and a chord in tune. The demo is on trombone, also a fretless instrument like the strings.
Army Field Band
Last Edited by STME58 on May 12, 2014 12:01 PM
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barbequebob
2550 posts
May 12, 2014
11:59 AM
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Something not mentioned here is that harmonica reeds give off many more harmonic overtones than stringed instruments do, particularly the upper overtones, where many of them are odd numbered, which always sound harsh and dissodent to the human ear.
When you hear a chord tuned to just intonation, you hear an absolutely pure chord with very pure harmony and all the overtones are in total balance with each other wheras with ET, it's totally opposite.
You also have to remember with pianos, during the tuning process, the very spot the hammer strikes the string is very important or ET doesn't work because the hammer also acts as a damper for the ood numbered harmonica overtones. Harmonica reeds are loaded with odd numbered upper harmonic overtones.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on May 12, 2014 12:04 PM
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DukeBerryman
381 posts
May 12, 2014
12:02 PM
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@STME58 I found it to be a fascinating debate, and there are a lot of cultural influences. For me, the harmonica seems discordant, and like Chopin in the video examples posted above, I like the extremes. Sometimes I want to see how discordant I can get, but still make sense. I play as an accompanist, so throwing notes on top of other music gives me a chance to see which scales and notes will work, and then try to push the envelope. But I still have a beginner's ear. About the most I've been able to achieve is playing Am on top of C Major. That's fun. I'd like to try other relative minors on top of their related majors.
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DukeBerryman
382 posts
May 12, 2014
12:04 PM
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@BBQBob Yes! Bring on the harmonics
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A440
152 posts
May 12, 2014
12:05 PM
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As usual, Pat Missin provides some great info and insight - thanks for posting @dougharps
Question: Are there any harps sold today with the traditional 7-limit JI tuning out-of-the-box?
I heard that some of the Herings are tuned that way, as well as the Hohner MS Blue Midnight. And I guess Seydel's configurator will allow you to specify 7-limit JI.
Second question: Are any of you guys playing harps tuned to 7-limit JI, whether thats a custom or OOTB?
Last Edited by A440 on May 12, 2014 12:08 PM
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barbequebob
2552 posts
May 12, 2014
12:31 PM
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There are only two diatonics OOTB that are in 7LJI, ad that's the Hering 1923 Vintage Harp and the JI version of the Suzuki Fabulous. The Hohner MS Blue Midnight and the Hering Master Blues OOTB are in 19LJI.
When I'm playing blues, I have all my diatonics tuned to 7LJI, be either doing it myself on OOTB harps or from customs. Since I use double stops and chords, the sound of ET tuned harps when playing chords and double stops grates on my ears because the chords sound horribly dissodent and if you do the Big Walter stuff, the chords and double stops don't work at all on ET tuned harps, but work perfectly with harp tuned to 7LJI.
Speaking of Big Walter, years ago I asked him if he like GM's, which are tuned ET, and his straight to the point answer was, "don't get that mother f**king piece of s**t near me!"
The Seydel compromise tuning is essentially 19LJI, and what makes it a comprise compared to 19LJI is the way holes 5 & 9 draw are tuned. In 19LJI, those two notes are tuned 1/2 cent sharp wheras on the Seydels, they're tuned 2 cents flat. So, the closest compromise tuning to JI is Seydel and after that, the compromise tunings of the MB, MBD, and Special 20's.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
1648 posts
May 12, 2014
12:32 PM
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It is true that without a piano as part of the ensemble, orchestral and vocal music is based more on pure intervals than on perfect imperfect ones that are created in order to tune a piano.
As keyboard temperaments evolved, so did chordal harmony. On earlier temperaments, certain chords sounded terrible.
It is a compromise that has worked well to further musical harmony as well.
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The Iceman
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A440
153 posts
May 12, 2014
3:04 PM
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Thanks Bob!
Yes, I forgot about the Suzuki Fabulous in 7LJI - Ronnie Shellist has posted a nice YouTube demo of one.
Your description may also may explain Hohner's vague marketing description of the Blue Midnight ("Chicago Style" tuning from the vaults)... they imply 7LJI, when in fact it's 19LJI.
Good old Hering, with those 1923s - gotta luv it :-)
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groyster1
2597 posts
May 12, 2014
5:18 PM
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you can get the "biscuit"...an artist setup you buy from hohner....check it out...it is 7JI tuned
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