superchucker77
436 posts
Apr 01, 2014
5:51 PM
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My latest blog entry which discusses harmonica in relation to working within the context of groove.
Groove is the Center of Everything!!
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Brandon O. Bailey
Official Website of Superchucker
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blueswannabe
458 posts
Apr 01, 2014
6:24 PM
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Yes.....it truly is. Brandon...i was listening to your stuff lately in my car cruising to work. . "Pepole take my soul" . Great grove. I was like dam that's good! What harp are you using and what effects. Really sounds great.
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DukeBerryman
314 posts
Apr 01, 2014
7:13 PM
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That first example is a great example of when to come in. You can tell when to come in if you're in the groove. I like this groove, too:
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blueswannabe
459 posts
Apr 01, 2014
8:02 PM
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love wish you would by Billy Boy Arnold. Not a difficult harp song....but great grove. Same with Junior Wells....great timing. also...Not complex harp...hitting the 4 draw bend and then 2 draw.....and the band really grooves
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Apr 01, 2014 8:07 PM
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DukeBerryman
315 posts
Apr 01, 2014
8:24 PM
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And they don't take you out of the groove - they keep you in it. Good skill to have.
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The Iceman
1572 posts
Apr 02, 2014
6:11 AM
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Years ago I started to explore groove in harmonica stylings...discovered quite a lot in analyzing Kim Wilson's playing. He has what I call "Powerful Momentum" in his personal groove.
He seems to breathe a groove between his solid ideas and even when he is just playing rhythmically behind the singer.
Since then, I've found that a few of the better players do this, using their own personal rhythmic groove sound...including Little Walter.
If you listen real hard into "Too Late", you will hear him play the vocal line on harmonica and between the main notes, he is breathing gently into the harmonica what I've labeled "Hut-tah Hut-tah". The first "hut-tah" is inhaled, the second one exhaled.
It's as if he breathes this groove constantly on the low down, sometimes so quietly that you can't hear it, but the intent is there.
Off of this personal groove, he spins ideas from this base of momentum, only to return to the groove when the line is completed, picking up on the "hut-tah" again.
Easier to teach in person than to type it out.
The groove exists within and is not a required sound at all times, but when it creeps in, it creates a very infectious feel.
So, a harmonica player should be able to project this concept all by himself...even playing solo. It's like inferring a full rhythm section is backing him at all times.
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The Iceman
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superchucker77
437 posts
Apr 02, 2014
7:49 AM
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@ THe Iceman, I completely agree. Kim Wilson's personal sense of drive in accordance with the foundational groove is astounding. Hence why his solo playing is equally awesome ( see down at antones).
@Blueswannabe, thanks very much. I am using a Bflat natural minor.
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Brandon O. Bailey
Official Website of Superchucker
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barbequebob
2509 posts
Apr 02, 2014
10:29 AM
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Brandon, good stuff! Groove absolutely is everything and from the times I gigged with many of those old blues masters, if you screwed it up, you were dead meat in their eyes and it was why drummers and bass players were constantly hired and fired like a revolving door because if the groove gets messed up, EVERYTHING gets messed up.
Learning time for any musician, regardless of the instrument they may play, is vitally important and there's no way to understate that. Many harp players far too often don't bother and of all the lead players on a bandstand, because of their own unwillingness to get their time together, they're often times the first lead players to totally screw up the time as well as screw up the groove, and in the year that I hosted jam, it was impossible for me NOT to notice this.
Time and groove is something you really have to ingrain as early as you possibly can, and unfortunately, in a lot of open jams (unless many of the participants are actual working pros), they're more likely to be around players whose time is often not going to be very good.
Kim Wilson, like a number of musicians I've met over the years, regardless of what instrument they play, is also a good drummer and most musicians I've met that also play drums or started out as a drummer (and Albert King is a classic example of that), they nearly always have excellent time and much of their playing is always going to groove and you can also get a very percussive feel to their playing as well.
Working with the groove can never be overstressed and it's so important to take the time to do this to the point that you can also physically feel it as well, or basically get to the point where the mind, body and yur instrument all functions together as one.
Any musician who had good time, if they play something entirely solo with the band being left out, you can always feel where the groove is and when the band comes back in, they can quickly get into the right place and come in perfectly, even without need of a rehearsal but a musician with crappy time is going to play groovelessly and unless the band has an excellent rhythm section happening where the time is always dead on the money (and that means they NEVER lose the time and/or drop beats) that can hide their screw ups (up to a point), just a single person can totally kill a groove and make everyone around them sound absolutely horrible, and that's being ULTRA polite about it.
IMO, before you start using looping for a backing track if you're gonna play solo, you MUST get your time down FIRST and get yourself to a point where anyone can find the groove happening no matter what you're doing.
The groove is sometimes referred to as "the pocket," and it's not just instrumentalists that can easily screw it up, it's also vocalists as well and on The Voice, each of the coaches for the singers on their teams were basically saying the exact same thing where there was the "battle rounds," and one of the singers lost the pocket (AKA lost the groove AKA badly screwed up the time) and threw the other vocalist off.
Groove is something I've mentioned many times on this forum and is too often something many players really don't take enough time to properly learn.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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slaphappy
14 posts
Apr 02, 2014
1:21 PM
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but I thought I was the center of everything! ;)
I'm interested in what players can do specifically to improve their groove.. for me it's stuff like foot stompin, working with an egg shaker. Filisko talks about "sway" and body movement.. Having great time is the ultimate though.. how do you get it?
B.O.B. love your album BTW. Look forward to whatever you do next..
Last Edited by slaphappy on Apr 02, 2014 1:22 PM
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barbequebob
2511 posts
Apr 02, 2014
1:50 PM
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The only way to learn it is to constantly work at it, be it with a metronome, or just being around really good players or pros, and not necessarily just harp players. It may mean that you avoid open jams for a time because too often, many jammers will not have good time and you wind up regressing rather than progressing when surrounded by players who really don't have a clue about these things.
For music to be danceable, regardless of the genre, you have to have music where the time and the groove is happening 24/7 and for professional dancers, if a band/musician has horrible time, he's gonna be grooveless and dance moves depend on music with good time and if they have to follow musicians whose time is awful, trying to do the steps, especially if it's complicated steps, they will risk getting very serious, career threatening injuries.
You may want to work with a good drummer, but if the drummer has horrible time, it's gonna be an exercise in futility and when you get your own time together, you're gonna be instantly aware of not only if you screw up the time, but everyone else as well and rather quickly and it won't be a surprise that stuff you thought was great, you will then say to yourself, "what the hell was I thinking??"
You can stomp your feet but if your time ain't together, you're stomping and still messing up the time. Now if you've ever been in the military and see in boot camp, marching drills where everyone has to be marching at the same tempo, it's not unlike with music where everyone HAS to be on be on the same page or everything will be badly out of joint and things are totally a mess.
About a year or so ago, someone had posted something to the effect that while he was playing along with a recording of Adam, he kept up with him, but once the recording stopped, he found himself being all over the place, and so he asked himself if he had what he referred to as "white man's disease," meaning no sense of rhythm. It doesn't matter about race, because I told him is that he's has a problem many harp players have and that's his time was awful and needed work and race plays exactly NO factor in that because I've been around musicians of every race that had both great time as well as horrible time.
You just have to keeping plugging away at it, even tho it may seem boring and useless to you, but it's necessary so that a sense time and groove becomes ingrained to the point that you no longer have to think about it.
Believe me, when I started, my time just absolutely was awful and I had to bust my butt HARD to get that happening, but it helped to be surrounded by some really good musicians (and not most jam hacks) to help make it happen and more than a few of them were brutally honest about it.
Bottom line, there ain't no short cuts for learning these things.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
1574 posts
Apr 02, 2014
2:24 PM
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You want an immersion in groove?
This guy built his reputation on making people dance for hours, so band would play for hours straight...
King Sunny Ade and his African Beats
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The Iceman
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mr_so&so
804 posts
Apr 03, 2014
10:25 AM
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I second The Iceman on King Sunny Ade for groove, and add the late, great Nigerian, Fela Kuti, originator of "Afrobeat" in the 1970's.
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Joe_L
2455 posts
Apr 04, 2014
8:43 AM
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Listening to the right kind of music is important. Listen to lots of Jimmy Reed records and Magic Slim records. The groove on those recordings is deeper than the Grand Canyon. Listen to it all the time and feel it.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Frank
4117 posts
Apr 04, 2014
6:13 PM
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Groove escapes the majority of us harp players because - one really has to become musically vunerable and fearless enough to let their "inner coolness" reach out and touch others intimately :)
It's hard to groove if you ain't COOL...Can you teach us how to be cool Brandon?
Last Edited by Frank on Apr 04, 2014 6:19 PM
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kudzurunner
4641 posts
Apr 04, 2014
8:03 PM
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Here's a full set of recent KW:
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barbequebob
2518 posts
Apr 05, 2014
8:43 AM
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Part of the big problem with a lot players when it comes to groove is too often they're just paying attention to the solos and nothing else but solos and real pros, especially those that know how to groove, are ALWAYS PAYING ATTENTION TO EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON AROUND THEM 24/7. (I had to put that in all caps because of its extreme importance)>
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Frank
4125 posts
Apr 05, 2014
8:58 AM
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Paying attention to everything that is going on around you is the very important foreplay and if a solo ain't groovin, you can't rock mamas boat :)
Last Edited by Frank on Apr 05, 2014 9:03 AM
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laurent2015
683 posts
Apr 06, 2014
4:09 AM
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Once upon a time in...Belgium, I suddenly paid attention to a song out of the radio (maybe 3 months ago) and this is Pharrell Williams' HAPPY, not because of the lyrics I didn't catch on, but because of what I would call ""the groove".
BUT? I cannot hear any deep interaction between the instruments, besides the voice that's perfectly slotted.
So, would you call it groovy stuff, or other reasons compelled up to 162 millions people to have a look at YT?
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Frank
4128 posts
Apr 06, 2014
4:13 AM
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At the risk of embarrassing myself "again" - here is an improv to a drum track, trying to find my groove to it's groove :)
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The Iceman
1583 posts
Apr 06, 2014
7:27 AM
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Not bad. However, it sounds like you are leaning on the drum track rather than standing alone with the groove, as it almost but not quite seems to slip away from you every now and then.
Some ideas meander a bit longer than I would like and don't seem to arc strongly towards a resolution.
Also, most of it is 16th note based..very little "messin' with the time while attached to the groove", a style that I really enjoy.
Just my opinion based on what I like in a groove. (too much listening to Maceo Parker, probably).
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The Iceman
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Frank
4130 posts
Apr 06, 2014
7:38 AM
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Yeah, I am far from being the "groove center" -- Plus some seriously sour notes :(
Last Edited by Frank on Apr 06, 2014 7:40 AM
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DukeBerryman
321 posts
Apr 06, 2014
7:57 AM
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@Frank Try getting behind the beat instead of on it or ahead of it. Listen to the groove in this version of Train Kept A Rolling - everything happens after the beat. Try vamping with your harp to just the rhythm guitar. Joe Perry is a fucking genius, and this is a very carefully constructed song:
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Frank
4131 posts
Apr 06, 2014
8:17 AM
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For sure duke, my groove skills a sorely lacking...I listened to this tape 24 hours a day growing up - very addictive groovin from Joe. Got to see him live without Aerosmith when they first broke up - it was "the joe perry project :)
Last Edited by Frank on Apr 06, 2014 8:19 AM
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DukeBerryman
322 posts
Apr 06, 2014
8:32 AM
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@Frank And you know you're a better harp player than Steven! Surprised he didn't give it a blow in this song. I got to see them in the late 80's after one of their trips to rehab.
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superchucker77
438 posts
Apr 06, 2014
8:46 AM
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@laurent2015:
I know exactly what you mean. I would definitely consider the song groovy. The production was definitly done with more of a pop sensibility in that everything is meant to accentuate the vocals. I think that Pharrell does a great job of weaving his voice into and out of the melody, even to the degree of making specific microtones and trailing notes cohere at the perfect moment.
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Brandon O. Bailey
Official Website of Superchucker
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laurent2015
684 posts
Apr 06, 2014
9:44 AM
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Thanks Brandon, I'm glad we see eye to eye... and kudos for your great job!
Frank, I like the sound you produce.
I would advise you not playing after having had X-rays: you cannot feel good after that.
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JustFuya
49 posts
Apr 06, 2014
12:07 PM
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I think the groove begins as you walk on stage. I was looking for some JJ Cale (not this particular song) but found an excellent example of establishing a groove, maintaining it through the introduction of band mates, and then flowing into the piece. Very strong howdy to the house.
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Frank
4134 posts
Apr 07, 2014
4:53 AM
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this has a heavy groove center too :)
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laurent2015
685 posts
Apr 07, 2014
8:53 AM
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Still about groove...careful of going into transe!
Last Edited by laurent2015 on Apr 07, 2014 9:08 AM
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The Iceman
1587 posts
Apr 07, 2014
9:16 AM
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groove, Iceman's favorite style...
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The Iceman
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JInx
764 posts
Apr 07, 2014
10:43 AM
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this here groove is a mile deep
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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The Iceman
1588 posts
Apr 07, 2014
11:15 AM
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RL's groove. One skinny dude, slightly out of tune guitar, but really spooky good.
Saw him in the 90's up at Port Townsend Blues Week. He did a one string solo playing one note that got me up on my feet before I knew what I was doing.
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The Iceman
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STME58
734 posts
Apr 07, 2014
2:21 PM
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The Herbie Hancock piece, with its constant groove and a wide variety of solos place over the groove and in the groove, Reminded me a lot of Benny Goodmans Sing, Sing, Sing. I really like how Krupa on percussion moves the accent around to every beat in the measure at different times in the song but never looses the groove.
When searching for a good file of this song I came across the following analysis which I found quite interesting.
History and analysis of Goodman's 1938 Carnagie Hall Performance
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 07, 2014 2:26 PM
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jnorem
145 posts
Apr 07, 2014
6:51 PM
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I always thought the Fabulous Thunderbirds had a real groove, a groove that was unique to that band. Fran Christensen is a great drummer and I think his playing was a big part of the band's groove, but everyone in that band knew how to get into the low down groove.
I saw them every time they came to Atlanta. Just a great band that put on a great show. They were clicking on so many right things.
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Call me J
Last Edited by jnorem on Apr 07, 2014 6:54 PM
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STME58
738 posts
Apr 07, 2014
9:31 PM
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"Christensen is a great drummer and I think his playing was a big part of the band's groove, but everyone in that band knew how to get into the low down groove. "
"So, a harmonica player should be able to project this concept all by himself...even playing solo. It's like inferring a full rhythm section is backing him at all times."
The above comments from J and Iceman point out that groove is not the drummers job. Great percussion helps but everyone has to be in the groove.
I recall a comment from another thread about how good musicians would give you the evil eye, or worse, if you messed up the groove. It seems that setting a good groove is somewhat like building a house of cards, everyone has to work together to achieve it but one clumsy step can bring it all down. And yet, when a band has a good groove going it seems unstoppable.
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 07, 2014 9:31 PM
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barbequebob
2519 posts
Apr 08, 2014
10:36 AM
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I think who you guys are referring to is Fran Christina when he was part of the T-Birds. The T-Birds always had musicians, regardless of the instrument, who always had excellent time and if you don't have good time, NOTHING is gonna groove and it takes just one person on the bandstand to totally screw it up.
Too often many white musicians adhere to the notion that the drummer is the beat, but I learned a lesson from many old black blues masters I've worked with that the drummer is NOT the beat, but merely dresses it up. Why? If you have a drummer on the bandstand whose time absolutely sucks, the groove is always gonna be a mess sound saying that the drummer is the beat is total nonsense because there are far too many drummers out there who have absolutely god awful time and they'll screw up the groove in a nanosecond.
If you have even just one player on the bandstand who has horrible time, the groove can easily fall apart and holding down the groove is EVERYONES'S job and not just the job of the drummer and the bass player.
A great, grooving drummer and bass player can hide a lead player whose time isn't too great for the most part, but eventually it will never be able to hide all of their warts.
If you're doing a recording in a pro studio, especially with a major label (and even more so with white music bands), they tend to record the rhythm first with a reference vocal because they know for a lot of bands, the rhythm section tends to be the weakest part of the band (especially with white music bands because they have a tendency to concentrate at times too much on the soloing and not enough on everything else) and if the groove isn't right, NOTHING is right and no lead player no matter how well skilled they are can ever compensate for a band that's totally grooveless and grooveless bands make EVERYBODY look and sound like crap.
What Gene Krupa does on Sing Sing Sing with the opening solo that if you pay close attention is that he NEVER loses the time or drops a beat, and the minute wither of those things happen, then the groove becomes both undanceable as well as unlistenable and it becomes even more noticeable during the transition from the solo back into the groove and a lousy drummer will often have both of those things happening not only in transition, but in the solo as well.
It takes time to get to the point where you automatically groove but many harp players just want to pay attention to the solos and forget everything else (which, IMO is a total jam hack mentality and not something to be proud of) and don't want to take the time to get their time straight.
When you hear mention about rushing or being late when it comes to the groove/pocket, in many ways, it's a more polite way of saying that you screwed up the time and when you screw up the time, you screw up the groove.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
1591 posts
Apr 08, 2014
10:53 AM
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Are you a good dancer? If so, you can probably play "in the pocket". If not, well.....
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The Iceman
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Frank
4140 posts
Apr 08, 2014
2:23 PM
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Who is worse a "gus" or a "jam hack" ?
Last Edited by Frank on Apr 08, 2014 2:31 PM
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jnorem
151 posts
Apr 08, 2014
2:47 PM
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"Are you a good dancer? If so, you can probably play "in the pocket". If not, well….."
That's exactly it. If you're a good dancer then you're feeling the rhythm with your whole body, which is essential to communicating a groove with your playing.
It's very much a body thing.
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Call me J
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laurent2015
689 posts
Apr 08, 2014
2:55 PM
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Picking up on what BBQ wrote, it is said in a book that a band might start playing even if the drummer is late...but it won't do so if the bassist isn't there...
Listening to Zawinul's vid above, I think it's obvious that the bass IS the rhythm, and certainly the most important part of the groove.
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Frank
4144 posts
Apr 08, 2014
7:05 PM
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checkout this groovy groove :)
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laurent2015
690 posts
Apr 09, 2014
12:50 AM
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Yeah...
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barbequebob
2522 posts
Apr 09, 2014
10:11 AM
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@laurent2015 -- In a reggae groove (especially the old school reggae grooves ala Bob Marley, Jimmy Cliff, The Wailers, Toots & The Maytals, etc.,), it's the bass that drives the groove and that's why the bass is usually also the loudest instrument on the bandstand.
Both the bass and drums HAVE to be locked in together, so from personal experience, I can't really buy into what you're saying that a band can come in even if a drummer is late but won't do so if the bass isn't there, and my experience is with older black pros in blues and trust me, they're VERY anal about the groove and if drums and bass aren't locked in, you could bet on having some holy hell come down on them from the bandleader because BOTH have to be totally in sync or the groove falls apart.
There are some tunes where the drums may be playing a shade more behind the beat that the bass player, BUT in order for that to work, their time has to be dead on the money and neither one can overplay even in the slightest or it falls apart.
So really, bass AND drums are the rhythm section and the rhythm in many ways but they HAVE to be totally locked in or it's jam hack garbage that no one can dance, clap their hands, or tap their feet to at all.
The idea of learning how to groove, which starts at getting your time together first, you have to keep working at it so that you get to a point where you naturally FEEL it happening throughout your body, or better yet, for a harp player, that your mind, body and harmonica are so totally in sync that it all works as one, but many harp players aren't even remotely close to that point at all.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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STME58
742 posts
Apr 09, 2014
10:32 AM
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I interpreted "late" in @laurent2015's comment as a half hour late , not behind the beat. I play in a brass quintet and keeping the beat is very clearly a shared responsibility as there is no drummer. We can still rehearse with any player missing. If more than one is missing it gets pretty sparse though.
Last Edited by STME58 on Apr 09, 2014 10:53 AM
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laurent2015
691 posts
Apr 09, 2014
5:38 PM
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STME58, yes, that's what I actually wanted to say.
Sure also that bass and drums compose the rhythm section.
I 'll try to find back who wrote that sentence I evoked, I think it was a famous jazz player, but neither a bassist nor a drummer. Of course, the lateness of the drummer is a school hypothesis...
Thanks for your comments, BBQ!
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JustFuya
63 posts
Apr 11, 2014
9:36 PM
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Looking beyond the snazzy dress, I'd love to hear opinion on who is in the groove and who is here for the paycheck on this song. No fair if you saw the whole concert.
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orphan
338 posts
Apr 12, 2014
7:27 AM
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Love that Cowtown Ballroom sticker on the guitar @ 2:01.
Canned Heat loved Kansas City and the Cowtown Ballroom. It was like family in Boogie Heaven. White hot groove with Wilson driving the bus.
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.JPG)
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boris_plotnikov
954 posts
Apr 12, 2014
12:10 PM
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Groove is everything for me!
Talking about groove, I really like these bands
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Excuse my bad English.
My videos.
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barbequebob
2526 posts
Apr 14, 2014
10:46 AM
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When I gigged in a band that had five horns in it, I was playing as part of the horn section and Cissy Strut was often times used as a set opener(and those lines are also rhythm lines and have to be played dead on perfect or the percussiveness of the lines got flushed down the toilet in a hurry).
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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The Iceman
1593 posts
Apr 14, 2014
11:19 AM
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Unfortunately, most covers of this tune that I've heard had everyone playing more notes than necessary...even for the "head" of the tune.
The idea of this particular groove is everyone plays less than one would think, but it all fits together like a jigsaw puzzle.
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The Iceman
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