Hondo
281 posts
Mar 13, 2014
5:05 PM
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I need to replace a speaker in a Special 6 and I know that many of you went with the Lil Buddy, but I''m curious about this one. I have a good blues setup and I would to set this one up for R&B, Funk and Rock.
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Hondo
282 posts
Mar 13, 2014
5:07 PM
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Can't seem to edit subject title
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blueswannabe
428 posts
Mar 13, 2014
7:42 PM
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I share your curiostiy here. I had a Lil Buddy in my Special 6. For some reason I decided to sell the Lil Buddy and went with a jensen p10S vintage smoothcone. I would definintely like to try the jensen jet tornado.
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arnenym
271 posts
Mar 14, 2014
11:13 AM
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Jensen Jet Tornado is a good speaker.
Compared to a original VHT speaker it's brighter but have a tighter bass. It have a woody-like tone.
It could be a little too harsh in a VHT. I tried a 16 ohm Warehouse Veteran 10 in my VHT and i like that better.
A Li'l buddy is darker but have a creamy smooth top end. It's louder and cleaner than a original or a Li'l buddy.
You get a better cut through with a Jensen.
This one is softer in the top, tight bass and have a nice classic tone.
Warehouse G10C
Last Edited by arnenym on Mar 14, 2014 11:22 AM
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blueswannabe
429 posts
Mar 14, 2014
4:53 PM
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@armenym, how about theWarehouse G10C/S 10" (Smooth Cone)? Have you tried that and do you like it better than the G10C?
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/warehouse-guitar-speakers-g10c-s-10-75w-american-vintage-guitar-speaker?pfm=sp
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Mar 14, 2014 4:53 PM
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arnenym
272 posts
Mar 15, 2014
1:39 PM
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Sorry, i have not tried it.
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blueswannabe
434 posts
Mar 15, 2014
1:58 PM
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How about a weber 10F150-O. It's a ceramic speaker with a smooth cone. Lots of bottom, early break-up and aggressive. Anyone tried this speaker before?
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1847
1584 posts
Mar 16, 2014
9:17 AM
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In the 70's the production methods of alnico changed
now that may be very well true, but is there any science on this?
is the later production magnet stronger or weaker?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Hondo
283 posts
Mar 17, 2014
4:53 AM
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Thank you for all of the replies but some of them are asking about speakers that are ones with blues characteristics. I have a good blues setup and my idea here was to install a speaker with a more R&B, Funk and Rock style. Maybe that would be good for learning chromatic on as well.
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rockmonkeyguitars
29 posts
Mar 17, 2014
5:41 AM
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@ 1847
modern alnico is different in the way it conducts electricity and the magnetic pull. I build guitar pickups for a living so I've done all sorts of test on alnico types using a gauss meter and LCR and can tell you that they perform very differently.
As a general rule, modern alnico is much more constant in it's maximum gauss. The maximum pull of an A5 magnet is supposed to be 12,500 Br (gauss) but most modern a 5 won't hold that charge for more than a couple days and it usually drops to about 12,000 Br give or take. Vintage alnico would drop significantly more and had a lot more variation from one magnet to the next. I've have many vintage alnico 5 magnets in my shop that I would fully charge and take reading 2 days later and some would be as low as 400 Br and the highest I saw was around 11,000 but most sat in the 700-800 range.
Both vintage and modern magnets settle down after a couple days and then hold their charge but vintage magnets settle at a lower charge than modern magnets.
It is possible to discharge modern magnets so that they don't have a full charge and that can help, but it's still not going to sound the same and there are a couple reason for that.
1st is that vintage magnets are easier to demagnetize with electric currents. Part of what gives alnico that smooth sound is that is that the current going through the speaker is constantly changing the magnetic pull of the alnico magnet. A modern magnet that is harder to manipulate in this manner will not smooth out as much as a vintage one.
2nd has to do with inductance. Old alnico produced more eddy currents than new alnico. The higher inductance adds the the warmth you get from the speaker (or guitar pickup in my case) and because eddy currents fluxuate with frequency and current it means that the inductance adds to that warm spongy tone you get from alnico. In guitar pickups I have developed methods to increase inductance in my pickups but it's not the same as having vintage alnico. In speakers it seems that using alnico 3 rather than 5 is a popular way to go but that is the same either.
Hope that made sense. I'm very dyslexic and scatterbrained so I appologize
Last Edited by rockmonkeyguitars on Mar 17, 2014 5:42 AM
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1847
1594 posts
Mar 17, 2014
9:24 AM
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mr monkey, thank you for your insightful response
you rock!
you have jogged my memory i recall when fender came out with the re-issue bassman
one of the complaints was that the speakers did not sound exactly the same
they had a one inch paper voice coil, alnico magnet, how much different could they be?
then mojo tone came out with their model, i remember asking, i think it was tom mc neil
how is this different? at first he would not say, trade secrets at all that jive
finally he relented, he told me well you can dope the speaker. so are these speakers doped?....no
then how are they different?.... well you can demagnetize the speaker
i recall him saying something similar as you. i hear others saying the glue is different the paper was thinner.
which i am sure is true, but what you said would seems to me to make the most sense.... to me anyway.
so are my 15 year old mojotones losing some of their magnetism, thus adding more mojo?
i think they sound great, sometimes we tend to obsess over minute details that only we notice.
what are your thoughts on a re-coned old jensen? i have several just trying to find the time to install them.
how about the neodym magnet speaker which the op asked about
how do they react? thanks again for your response, you made my day.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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rockmonkeyguitars
32 posts
Mar 20, 2014
6:29 AM
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@ 1847
Unfortunately the only part of speaker production I have a solid grasp on is the magnets and that's only because they behave in a similar way in guitar pickups as they do in speakers. So I'm much better at pointing out why something isn't the same but can't really give answer about how they are trying to fix it.
I do have a lot of experience with vintage Jensen P series speakers and modern P series speakers. The vintage ones are darker and smoother. I'm only in my mid 30's so I don't have experience with what vintage P series sounded like when they were brand new. I think that they would have sounded more like a New modern P series speaker than we would like to think. I do think you were on to something when you talked about using a speaker for 15 years giving it better tone. Given the nature of the alnico, it should mellow out with years of use giving your mojotone speakers extra mojo. You would have to use the speakers though. Just sitting around isn't manipulating the magnet, demagnetizing, and remagneting. This only happens when you are actually playing music. That said, a post 70's alnico magnet is still never going to sound as smooth as a pre 70's alnico magnet.
I know that reconing a vintage P series jensen makes the speaker sound different than the speaker sounded soon before the speaker needed a recone. Many people say that this is because the cone and glue are different and that may be true, but I suspect a reconed speaker actually sounds more like the speaker did when it was new but we hear it broken in over 50 years and everything about the speaker had broken down so it's gat a familiar played in sound before reconing and a stiff tone after the recone. Play the speaker in for 20 hrs and it should start to open up just like a new guitar opens up and sounds better after hrs of use.
My thoughts on neodymium is that I really like it for PA's, Bass, Keyboards, and acoustic amps. I'm not a fan for electric guitar and I've never tried it with harmonica. Comparing Alnico and ceramic to Neodymium is like comparing Vinyl and reel to reel to CD. The CD is much more clear, precise, the tone can be very open and clean, lows punchy and highs are crisp but sometimes it's a bit harsh. All is also true of neodymium speakers. Vinyl and reel to reel compresses tone slightly, the lows are can be a bit spongy, and highs are not as clear. All is true of a good alnico and ceramic speakers. If I'm going to be listening to ella fitgerald I would go with vinyl every time. If I'm listening to modern rock, I use a cd player. Basically the point I'm trying to get across is both make fine speakers but one sounds more HI FI than the other. In the business of music HI-FI can be good or bad depending on the application.
One huge advantage to neodymium is it's efficiency. It's much more efficient than ceramic or alnico and that means you get a lot more volume for the same amount of power. This is of course talking about the potential of the magnet but the other aspects of the speaker could highlight or dampen the overall colour and volume that neodymium has to offer.
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rockmonkeyguitars
39 posts
Mar 22, 2014
11:30 AM
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Kendrick blackframe is what I'd get. It's the closest to the vintage Jensen P that I've ever heard. I'd say it sounds about half way between a Vintage P and a vintage C.
Of the speakers you listed I'd go with a Weber F. Don't get a modern alnico speaker. The Jet is both dark and harsh at the same time. Jensen P and webber A are both bright but kind of ice picky. The Eminence and warehouse are both speaker manufacturers that I have never liked.
I might be the only one but I'm actually a fan of the modern Jensen C-N speakers. In my amp building days I used them a lot. I would keep P series speakers in stock but when people got to do side by side comparisons they always went with the C and Jensen C-N speakers are quite cheap
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blueswannabe
449 posts
Mar 22, 2014
4:20 PM
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@rockmonkeyguitar, Do you like the Jensen p10s from the 50's? I have one in my Kalamazoo model 2. It's not as strong as a p10 r but still a good speaker.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Mar 22, 2014 4:23 PM
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rockmonkeyguitars
40 posts
Mar 22, 2014
4:27 PM
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I do like the Jensen P10's from the 50's. I agree with you 100% that they are not as strong as the modern p10's and that goes back to the explanations that I gave earlier. The issue with the 50's Jensen speakers is that the glue gets brittle and you never know when the speaker is going to fail. Fixing a speaker that has dropped it's voice coil isn't cheap but it's well worth the cost because NOTHING on the market today has that 50's speaker tone. If you have a 50's p10 you are a very lucky person indeed.
Last Edited by rockmonkeyguitars on Mar 22, 2014 4:30 PM
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arnenym
274 posts
Mar 23, 2014
5:43 AM
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rockmonkeyguitars wrote: "The Eminence and warehouse are both speaker manufacturers that I have never liked."
How do this fact affect the sound? Just wondering?
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rockmonkeyguitars
41 posts
Mar 23, 2014
5:58 AM
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It's just a personal opinion. Thats why I didn't give an explanation like I did with the alnico speakers. There is nothing wrong with them but I was asked what I thought and I don't think they sound good. Can't put my finger on why, just not my thing.
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