slaphappy
9 posts
Mar 12, 2014
1:54 PM
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I'm curious about this. I'm sure it's been discussed but did a quick search and didn't find much.
I"ve been working on some power harp stuff (the Harlem riff and other drone-type grooves that mix chords with 2 draw and 2 draw bend, I love this stuff). I've noticed I sometimes lose the implied tonality of the tonic in cross harp if I play the 2 draw a few cents flat or more. This is mostly with lower key harps like Bb and A.. In fact to my ear, it leaves the implied tonality of the 4 chord hanging over everything. I'm not sure why that is but it bugs me and while I've had some success fine tuning my intonation, I haven't fully resolved this question for myself and so I appeal to the experts for help!
So, do you guys always play the 2 draw as sharp as you possibly can? I can match the intonation of the 3 blow but it's an effort and I'm not quite sure if this is the right approach. Sometimes it seems to sound "correct" played a bit flatter than the 3 blow on my harps (I mostly play SP20's and MBD's).
Am I obsessing too much over this?
Thanks for any and all opinions!
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smwoerner
251 posts
Mar 12, 2014
3:04 PM
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You're thinking about it correctly. It's not uncommon to hear folks pulling down the 2 draw when they should be playing it clean. I've been doing more bluegrass, old timey and country blues stuff lately and you can really hear the difference.
While it's best to get your technique down you can tune the 2 draw a bit sharp to help some.
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Purveyor of Optimized New and Refurbished Harmonicas.
scott@scottwoerner.com
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arzajac
1306 posts
Mar 12, 2014
4:02 PM
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Most harmonicas are not tuned for real-world playing. The exception to this is the Crossover.
Every note except one has one or more identical notes an octave apart on the same reed plate.
(1-4 blow) (2-5 blow) (3-6 blow) (4-7 blow) (5-8 blow) (6-9 blow) (7-10blow)
(1-4 draw) (3-7 draw) (4-8 draw) (5-9 draw) (6-10 draw)
The only note that doesn't is the tonic note of the draw plate, the 2 draw. When you think of it, the draw plate has many better notes to accompany the 2 draw instead of the tonic...
The 2 draw is the same note as the blow 3 which is the fifth of the scale (on the blow plate). Example, blow 3 on a C harp is G. G is the fifth of the scale of C. A fifth is tuned differently than the tonic. On the draw plate, G is the tonic.
Have I lost you yet? Gimme a sec...
To make chords sound nice on a harmonica, the tonic needs to be bang-on, the thirds need to be a little flat and the fifths need to be a touch sharp. Tonic, thirds and fifths are all there are on the blow plate. So the 3 blow will be a little sharp.
Another thing about tuning a harmonica is that the lower notes need to be tuned a little sharp because reeds flatten in pitch as you increase your breath force. The different length reeds are affected differently and when exposed to the same breath force (like when you play an octave split) the bottom reed will produce a slightly flatter note than the top reed. You just tune the bottom reed 1 to 3 cents sharp to make up for this.
So back to the 3 blow. It's the fifth, so it's a little sharp. It also needs to match the 6 blow and 9 blow. The 6 blow will be +2 cents while the 3 blow will be a little sharper (compared to the 6) because it's a longer reed...
As I said earlier, the 2 draw is the same note as the 3 blow. But the 3 blow is now a few cents sharp. Not to mention that players tend to hit draw notes a little harder than blow notes.
So my point is: It's no wonder the 2 draw is sounding flat.
When I tune a harp, unless asked to do otherwise, I tune the blow plate to 442 and the draw plate to 443. I make sure the draw 2 matches the blow 3 when played with the same breath force.
The Crossover is tuned this way, too.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Mar 12, 2014 6:17 PM
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1847
1580 posts
Mar 12, 2014
4:12 PM
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Have I lost you yet? Gimme a sec...
you lost me at....... The only note that doesn't is the tonic note of the blow plate,
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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arzajac
1307 posts
Mar 12, 2014
5:55 PM
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Crap! Typo. I fixed it.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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JonV
9 posts
Mar 13, 2014
2:24 PM
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I noticed in some recordings of myself that I was hitting the 2draw flat. This happens fairly naturally when you want to play the note powerfully but is usually best avoided.
I worked to play the 2 draw as sharp as possible and sometimes think of it as trying to bend the note upwards. Obviously not possible but I found it helpful.
> Am I obsessing too much over this?
Of the things on harmonica it's possible to obsess over playing in tune is a good one. It's one of the main things that differentiates good/great playing from not so good playing.
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MD1032
24 posts
Mar 13, 2014
3:21 PM
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Very useful thread, confirmed my suspicions that most harps need to have the 2 draw reed adjusted upwards slightly.
Obsessing over tuning is one of many things any player must do to take themselves to the next level.
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slaphappy
10 posts
Mar 14, 2014
10:14 AM
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>I worked to play the 2 draw as sharp as possible and sometimes think of it as trying to bend the note upwards.
That's exactly it, I think of it as bending upwards too. It doesn't feel very natural though but that's true for a lot of harp technique at first I've found (like 5 hole "cheeseburger" octave splits heh)
Really I just try to trust my ear and strive for accuracy and consistency.. I've improved some just by "hearing out" this issue and focusing on playing long 2-draw tones and holding the pitch very steady.
This does bring up a tuning question for me though.. When you tune the 2 draw, do you play it "bent upwards" i.e. as sharp as you possibly can for tuning purposes or should it be tuned according to what is a bit more comfortable to play (so just a bit flatter than as "sharp as possible")? Is this true for all draw note tuning in general (play as sharp as possible?)
Thanks to all,
-Slap
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undertheradar
66 posts
Mar 14, 2014
10:51 AM
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the least bit of vibrato on the 2d will flatten it. I usually try to thin it out. I like the difference in the 2d and 3b because I use it in a little riff alternating back and forth. If you "jazz" up the 2hole draw with some chord action most folks will NEVER hear the difference. IMO thats a little overboard obsessing the difference.
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The Iceman
1520 posts
Mar 14, 2014
11:33 AM
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About 20 years ago, when I was writing a column for American Harmonica Newsletter, I introduced new concepts on how to approach playing/learning the diatonic.
I am flattered to see many of these ideas has been folded into current harmonica educational materials and teaching.
One that I introduced was the "note room" and playing the note "at the ceiling" and bending down to "the floor".
When you play a note "at the ceiling" (through proper breathing and relaxing), they will not sound flat...including the 2 inhale.
If you weren't taught to do this when learning, it is a bit of reconditioning yourself to achieve this if you've already developed bad habits.
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The Iceman
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CWinter
137 posts
Mar 14, 2014
11:40 AM
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@Iceman,
Good sir, what would it take for a guy like me to get ahold of the column you mention above? Also, I would truly appreciate reading anything else you've written on the subject of diatonic instruction.
Thank you.
Last Edited by CWinter on Mar 14, 2014 11:40 AM
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The Iceman
1523 posts
Mar 14, 2014
3:43 PM
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CW...I've been toying with the idea of transferring those columns to a digital format, but time is limited for me right now. lotsa retyping into the computer involved.
Working long hours on my goumet food project...major grocery chain has approached me with interest to carry my products. This is my priority.
Don't think that back issues of AHN are easily come by, but I don't really know.
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The Iceman
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