rogonzab
451 posts
Jan 14, 2014
5:24 AM
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Hi,
The other day I was in my "tone practice" whit my amp. I was trying to relax while playing and keeping the throat open.
I was playing an A MB and I was getting a very nice low end (is a 1x8 SF Champ, so the bass is not huge) but when I switch to my SP20 Low D (thinking I want a bassier sound) the low end was gone, and the sound was thin.
So, my question is:
¿Why an A harp has more bass than my Low D? ¿How does the low end thing works?
Thxs!
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Slimharp
97 posts
Jan 14, 2014
8:20 AM
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How does the low end work. Resonance. Your mic may be more apt to pick up the frequency of the A harp. There are a lot of variables. One thing I make it a point to do is create a chamber in my hands ( or cup ) between the harp and the grill of the mic. It makes a big difference.
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rogonzab
452 posts
Jan 14, 2014
8:27 AM
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For the record:
The mic was a Universal 312 shell whit a CM 99B86, and my mic technique is god (better than my playing technique, sadly) so I know how to make a tight cup.
Slimharp, yes maybe that is it, the "low frequencys" of the Low D harp are to low for mi mic to pick it up. That make sense.
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Slimharp
99 posts
Jan 14, 2014
8:44 AM
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rogonzab, Im not saying you cant use a mic correctly. What I have noticed besides a good seal on the mic is I create a hollow chamber between the harp and the grill instead of having the harp right on or next to the grill.
For me it makes a big difference in tone. I also have pretty good size hands so I can make a pretty large chamber.
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rogonzab
453 posts
Jan 14, 2014
8:51 AM
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Yes, i think in the exact same way.
I like to make a large air chamber betewn the mic and the harp, that gives you more bottom end and less treble, and if you need more cut, you put the harp closer to the mic.
That is the way that I use the mic, whit the largest chamber possible.
I always wanted those big green Calrdads "Walter Horton mics", those mic have the element way back.
Last Edited by rogonzab on Jan 14, 2014 8:52 AM
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Slimharp
101 posts
Jan 14, 2014
9:06 AM
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rogonzab, sometimes I wonder if those old masters just didnt pick up stuff that was around ( most of which was killer stuff ) and just play. I have heard that sometimes Little Walter would use whatever the house had, ie P.A. amps - whatever. I guess the stuff then was the gear with the mojo.
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Greg Heumann
2558 posts
Jan 14, 2014
9:06 AM
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If you're talking about the bass you hear whenever you play more than one note- it has nothing to do with technique or resonance. The bass comes from difference tones between the 2 notes. It is a real note that sounds - and is a physical byproduct of how the two primary sound waves interact. Google it.
Those tones are virtually inaudible when you play acoustically but they are there. The amp pics them up and because they're so much lower than the primary frequencies you can hear them. When the 2 reeds are in tune, the bass note will be in tune as well. But when you draw harder or start to bend the bass note will sag out of tune creating even more beat notes and differences and it ultimately gets really muddy down there.
In your case the difference tone from the lower harp was probably low enough that the amp or mic didn't respond to it, or more correctly, respond to is as loudly.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Slimharp
102 posts
Jan 14, 2014
9:37 AM
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Long way around the same street Greg.
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harpwrench
757 posts
Jan 14, 2014
10:09 AM
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If you're getting strong bass response on the A harp on the 1 blow then 2 draw on the low D shouldn't sound thin, keep working with it.
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5F6H
1734 posts
Jan 14, 2014
10:27 AM
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You say you noticed this with the amp, it's possible that the circuitry & speaker frequency response shelve before the more desirable low frequencies, you may be picking up more of the higher harmonics of the low D rather than punching through with the fundamental notes. Even a 5W amp can produce a heavy low end, so long as speaker & circuitry can & you don't drive it hard.
To be sure, compare blowing the 1 blow on the A harp & the 3 blow on the Low D, this will eliminate if it is something before the amp. (Like Harpwrench says - simulpost!)
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www.myspace.com/markburness
http://www.facebook.com/markburness
Last Edited by 5F6H on Jan 14, 2014 10:30 AM
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CarlA
425 posts
Jan 14, 2014
6:56 PM
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Techmaster P.E.B. !!!!
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walterharp
1282 posts
Jan 15, 2014
6:20 AM
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it might be your playing volume is not as great on the low D..
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CarlA
426 posts
Jan 15, 2014
7:38 AM
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DJ Magic Mike??!??
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kudzurunner
4489 posts
Jan 15, 2014
7:48 AM
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With all due respect, Greg H. is wrong on this one. Producing bottom end response on the harp, amped or unamped, has everything to do with the technique that you use on individual notes--and specifically with the shape and size of the resonating cavity that you create in your mouth by dropping your jaw.
I'll assume that you're talking primarily about holes 1, 2, and 3 on the pair of harps in question--the amount of bottom end that those two harps produce when played through your mic and amp.
In order to get full-on bass response from an A harp, you need to drop your jaw considerably, especially for holes 1 and 2. Holes 1 and 2 on the low D harp are pitched a full fifth lower; they require a corresponding increase in jaw drop. If you play holes 1, 2, and 3 on the D harp with the same "big" jaw drop that you use playing the A harp, you'll actually be WAY suboptimal, in terms of mouth shape needed to produce maximal bass on that D harp. You'll be more likely to get a "quack" sound. A thin sound.
So the troubleshoot on this one is to become conscious of whatever jaw-drop creates maximal bass on the low notes of the A harp, then switch to the D harp and increase the jaw-drop quite a bit (if that's possible!). Hopefully you'll notice the D harp bass response come up to spec when you do that. But SOME increase in jaw drop is absolutely required.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jan 15, 2014 7:51 AM
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Greg Heumann
2562 posts
Jan 15, 2014
8:41 AM
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With all due respect, Adam - your harmonica makes bass notes when you play chords. Its a fact. Google "difference tones". I actually demonstrated it at HCH. That doesn't mean good technique isn't important for getting great tone - I've said that here thousands of times. Most people know that. Most people don't know what I was talking about. Maybe I was incomplete in my answer, but what I said is true. Most people don't understand this. Took me a long time to figure it out. But indeed the majority of the bass content in amplified tone - lower than the fundamental frequencies your harp is making - come from this phenomenon. Amp harmonics and body harmonics are all HIGHER frequencies than the fundamental notes. Good technique tends to accentuate the lows by significantly cutting the highs.
This is physics of sound - i.e., science - not opinion.
"Greg H is wrong on this one" - kinda strong words.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Jan 15, 2014 8:49 AM
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Rick Davis
2871 posts
Jan 15, 2014
8:58 AM
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Another theory - not likely but plausible -- is that one of the harps is hitting the free air resonant frequency of the speaker. The moving mass of the speaker and the stiffness of the surround combine to give a speaker a resonance, like a bell. It is usually pretty low, around 150 hz in a Eminence Lil Buddy, for example. The sound can be abated or enhanced by the size and shape of the cabinet and baffle. As I said, not likely but interesting.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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kudzurunner
4490 posts
Jan 15, 2014
9:05 AM
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Yes, they're strong words, and I mean them. I've rarely found reason to contradict you, but in this case, to the extent that you ignore what I write in my post above--the resonating cavity created by dropping the jaw--you are indeed mistaken.
If you read rogonzab's original query, he says nothing about playing more than one note at the same time. He just talks about the "low end" being "gone" and the sound being "thin."
I, too, offered a demonstration at HCH of how to get strong low end on the harp, amped or unamped. I played the 1 draw on an A harp with my bottom jaw touching my upper jaw. It was very thin. Then I dropped my jaw quite a bit. The note became huge, full, and bassy. One note. Not a beat note, but an individual note produced by one hole.
Technique--the shape and size of the resonating chamber produced by the inside of your mouth--isn't everything, but it's ALMOST everything. It makes a huge difference.
I can't say for sure that lack of a sufficiently dropped jaw is the determinative factor in the phenomenon that rogonzab describes, but my experience teaches me that it may well be. You, on the other hand, have offered a definitive pronouncement. I disagree strongly with it. Technique IS important--the kind of technique that I describe above.
This doesn't mean you're wrong about the importance of a beat note created by the sounding of several low draw notes at the same time. But your ARE wrong if you discount the importance of the dropped jaw in helping give that beat note its full complement of bass frequencies.
Again, my demonstration at HCH showed the importance of this dropped-jaw technique. I think rogonzab would be wise at least to try what I'm suggesting.
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Greg Heumann
2563 posts
Jan 15, 2014
9:25 AM
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Adam, I don't think either of us is wrong, We're saying two complementary things. But as long as we're on the record I'm going to go back to science. "Resonance" only amplifies an existing frequency. It does not create lower ones. To the extent a single harp note is considered "bass" (if memory serves the 1 blow on a G harp is about 60Hz) then resonance through technique DEFINITELY increases bass. I certainly didn't mean to imply otherwise (and I don't think I did.) The 2 and 3 draw on an F harp can hardly be considered bass - and yet playing amplified with good technique, MUCH lower bass tones can indeed be heard and fatten up the tone.
I am merely pointing out something that most people aren't aware of - and that is, and this is ONLY in the presence of more than one note being played, there is a very real physical phenomenon that creates NEW notes that are LOWER than the fundamental frequency. Next time I see you and I have an amp available I will demonstrate it in a way you cannot deny, but for now you'll just have to take my work, or study any of the myriad articles that come up when you google "different tones". Here's one. http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Difference_Tone.html
What you and I are saying is complementary and not opposite. You are correct - resonance matters. But it ONLY increases the amplitude of an existing note. I am ALSO correct - difference tones create notes significantly lower than either fundamental frequency when two (or more) notes are played - and a great deal of the deep bass content in amplified sound comes from the amp bringing these notes out.
You are an expert harmonica player, Adam - you know I have deep respect for you in that regard. I think I'm pretty well grounded in my expertise as well, including the science/physics of what actually happens.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
Last Edited by Greg Heumann on Jan 15, 2014 9:26 AM
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Kingley
3395 posts
Jan 15, 2014
9:50 AM
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Greg and Adam - You're both right.
Adam, a larger resonant chamber created by lowering the jaw, when combined with correct diaphragmatic breathing does indeed create a fuller deeper tone on a single note than a relatively closed jaw and upper lung (shallow) breathing.
Greg however is also right when he states that if you play two or more notes together, those notes can create difference tones. This is a very well known and well documented phenomenon.
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rogonzab
455 posts
Jan 15, 2014
10:05 AM
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Adams point is most likely to be the answer to my problem (lack of tone). If you read my OP I say:"The other day I was in my "tone practice" whit my amp" so I was playing single notes (strong -2, octaves) and chords (-34 and some slaps), so the Greg answer is right to.
Adams advice is to work on my tone (I do it everyday) and Greg says that I need to understand the logic behind the bass that come out the speaker.
Both of you had help me big time (and the rest too) to understand what is happening while I play. Thx a lot for this!
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walterharp
1284 posts
Jan 15, 2014
10:20 AM
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The low D harp low note should be around 125 Hz, The CM elements lower part of the range is around 100 Hz (reportedly), the lowest note on the A is about 220 Hz, so it is certainly possible you are getting lower efficiency of signal, you can hear down to around 20 Hz, so it is possible there is signal drop with the lower harp regardless of your tone and a certainty that the lower harmonics will not be picked up by the mic. It is worth noting that the original poster mentioned he has good tone and has worked on it, so I would give him the benefit of the doubt and look into the equipment.
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harpwrench
758 posts
Jan 15, 2014
10:40 AM
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I agree, some CMs can sound like a fog horn and others won't give it up. I think it's less likely to be the amp since the low E string on a guitar is an octave lower than the 1 draw on a low D harp. That being said, if you're just getting into low keys it takes more than jaw lowering to make the lows resonate, the length of your oral cavity is a factor. Look in a mirror and breath out while listening to your air (kinda like whistling except keep your lips open about the size of your embouchre). Down to a point the arch of the tongue moving rearward lowers the pitch, after that I see the tongue laying down flat, and the opening into my throat move back, to make the sound of the air go lower. Probably not the correct biological term but hopefully gets the point across and gives you another exercise to work with.
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Greg Heumann
2564 posts
Jan 15, 2014
1:02 PM
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@rogonzab - understanding what happens is good. Understanding why a really tight cup, which includes sealing the front of the harp as well as the rear, is very important too. There's nothing you can do about difference tones. There IS something you can do about acoustic tone (resonance/open throat, etc.) AND helping with amp/mic technique.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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rogonzab
456 posts
Jan 15, 2014
1:11 PM
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Just for the record, this is a sample of my "tone"
(same amp, same mic, same harp)
At the 1:15 I turn on my EQ pedal, so before that is my real tone (whit delay).
Yes, Greg, sealing the front of the harp is the biggest single thing you can practice to improve your tone, your video about that had help me alot.
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harpwrench
759 posts
Jan 15, 2014
2:53 PM
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You have a good sound going on from hole 3 and up, I like it a lot. What I'm hearing seems like you're losing your resonance from the 2 draw and lower. Your bends on that 2 hole are a little shaky and the tone thins out on the 1 draw. You might see if you can make your throat feel bigger and get that 1 hole going with a big, round boomy sound. Resonance is such a big deal because that energy is fed back into the reeds and makes them come alive (and is a big part of how bending works). Your cup or how well you're sealed off with the mic has nothing to do with what you're experiencing, that just enhances the effect once you get it all working for you.
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Milsson
101 posts
Jan 16, 2014
2:24 PM
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Well hello there. It took me a while to write this but i think it´s important. This is how I BELIVE it works. I´ve put down a few hours thru out my harmonica career to think about this and it has made me a better player.
I BELIVE that when you don t consider your self an absolute beginner any more you should start thinking about your sound, more in a philosophical mater. You will sound like every body else if you keep bending notes saying ka ta ha or what ever. It is a way to get a beginner going but then you will have to devlope your tone.
I can´t say how many times people have asked me if i´m well when im standing alone, i think, and making choking noices. I´ve played for hours in front of the mirror and tried to see what i do.
It´s probably 20-30 discussions on this board were we argue about tone so i won´t say how to get there but i hope people understand how important it is.
There is a lot of bs in this harmonica business. I think it is the lack of research done on the subject, i mean it´s a toy for 99% of the people.
Greg "knows" what´s happening i "know" what´s happening and Adam just happen to "know". Greg has to know the physics behind it, it´s his job. I think physics are exiting and i love googling. Adam has "learned" this from sitting in his woodshed for 35 years.
By writing "know" i mean that it´s a hell of a lot to take in and you will probably have to have this as your profession to understand it completely.
To the mater of bass(or tone)in your amp it´s just physics. The harmonica works by chopping the air stream of very abruptly this is what makes the free reed instruments unique, they sound like no other instrument. Childish for a lot of people but unique(that is what i think).
When you gently start moving air back and forth you will get a sine wave like sound but when you chop it like a harmonica you will get a more triangular wave sound. And how´s that working?
Well when you chop the air stream you create harmonics. If you combine a lot of harmonics you´ll get a different waveform. For those of you that play stringed instrument harmonics shouldn´t be a new thing.
With this known a 4 blow on the harmonica isn´t just the four blow it´s a little 5B and a little 6B and 7B.
If you would play a c on a piano you would play that c a third a fifth and the next c at the same time. You will be playing a c major chord but with the root extremely emphasized.(actually the harmonics doesn´t stop there, they keep going but they will sound with such a low amplitude that they are neclectible for this example.
If you pluck the low E string on a guitar you´ll see that the high E will start vibrating to. It´s the harmonics that are "built in" the tone E that vibrates the other string.
Now we know how a tone look. If we now play a note on the harmonica and put a notch(very sharp EQ) on the root the only thing we´ll hear are the third the fifth and the root note, but an octave higher. A inverted cord. It´s like playing 2,3,4 blow in stead of 1,2,3 blow. It sounds the same but it´s not the same "timbre".
If we go the other way around and EQ out the harmonics we get a smooth sounding low note.
You guys probably know were i´m going now but i´ll explain a little further.
So now we know how to get a smooth/low/fat sound. We have to emphasis the "root" note in the harmonic structure. This is the easy bit. Put a EQ on the harmonics and crank the amp. It´s a simple as that but we will only be able to play one note then change the EQand play the second note and then change and play and... and.. If jason ricci used this method he would have to move with the speed of light. Not a reasonable you would think?
We have to be able to EQ on the fly and here is were Hermann von Helmholtz comes in. It´s been mentioned on the forum earlier but i´ll give a quick resumé.
If you play a note in a pipe with the right sized cavity/lenght that note will be emphasized.
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Milsson
102 posts
Jan 16, 2014
2:26 PM
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That works on our”chord” to, if the resonator is sized according to an A440 for ex you will hear A440 in the resonator and the other harmonics(third, fifth, octave....)will beEQ:ed out left is a sine wave att 440hz. I,ve added a YT link down below that shows just that. A high pitched sound ”pumps” the air in the resonator that ”lines” up the soundwave to that freq that the resonator are tuned to. And here it gets interesting. IF you have a resonator that are tuned toA220 and you have a sound source that plays A440 you will indeed hear both tones. This is called a SUBharmonic and are created in the resonator.
ME personally don´t know if this is what happens but it´s kind of a qualified guess. When the helmholtz resonator becomes smaller it gets less effective. IF my mind serves me right you shouldn´t go below a quarter of the desired wave length when you build a bass horn speaker for example. The flesh in your throat/moth cavity aren´t probably optimal to resonate sound to.
So there we have it. We have a way to EQ on the fly without having to move with the speed of light AND we are able to producesubharmonics on the fly EVEN thou it´s not a really effective way to do so.(1)
THIS is what Adam talks about. I´m not shure that he has been thinking this much about this but he has happened to have learned this over the course of his life and it comes natural to him. He does this when he plays this note and that comes out. It´s in his brain, hard coded. Some has taken it a step further(i´m talking aboutdennis gruenling)and makes a living out of it. Ok Dennis does it all with fines but his trademark ARE the big, big tone.
Now we can create a big tone and go to our local blues jam. We ask to sit in and get one chance to go up on stage to play with our toy. We know how to EQ on the fly and the sound guy knows how to EQto, BUT not for harmonica players. The sound guy EQ´s for singers and does exactly the opposite to what we do with our mouth/throathand we are back were we started. Best case scenario some harmonica man before us don't know what we know and we come out a winner with our ”fat” sound that in reality isn´t that fat.
HERE Greg comes in. He just happens to have an old kalamazoo and a microphone with him.
First i have to say that i´m far from an amp expert but i kind of know what happens in a HARMONICA amp.
Guitar amps are built to emphasize the mids, even thou you have a bass, mid and treble knob you aren´t the boss of your amp. The guy that created your amp built it like guitar amps been built for a long time and that is to emphasize the mids. You can, if you want and have it on your amp, ”scratch the surface” of your sound but the bass and the highs will be rolled off.
And there you have it again you put your fat tone in the amp and crap comes out, better crap than the average harmonica wailer but still crap.
To stay clear of this problem you buy a kalamazoo from Greg or thememphis mini from Rick and they have EQ:ed them right from the start.
The fat/warm/low tones are emphasized in a harp amp and the highs are rolled off. Now you have two tools to sounding like Dennis gruenling. You have the perfect acoustic tone and a real HARMONICA amp but you have to have a microphone.
We all know how a microphone works and that it is designed for speech/singing mainly and not harmonica. In a perfect world you can look at the chart in the datasheet of the mic and se the freq.responce and you will see how the mic will EQ your sound. BUT when you cup the mic all bets are of, the freq response means nothing any longer and the mic sounds like crap, if you would sing thru it cupped. This is called the proximity effect.
Singers use this to sound fatter or bigger. They ”swallow” the micwhile they sing and leaves a tobacco smelling dribble in your sm57.
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Milsson
103 posts
Jan 16, 2014
2:27 PM
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The proximity effect is a built in bass boost. It´s just a side effect from the design of the mic but harmonica players can use it as you realize now. This bass boost are going to emphasis the fat/warm/big tone that comes from your harmonica/mouth/throat and send it to the amp, that are made for harmonica, that is gonig to emhasize the bass. WIN WIN WIN!
All and all. IF you dont belive this it´s fine by me but i guess what i´m trying to say is that when you know all the things that´s involved you´ll get to your goals faster.
You have to master the instrument the microphone and the amplifier. It´s a signal chain that starts from your brain and ends up in some on elses brain crap some were in that chain, crap in the audience ears.
Over and out!
(1) I don´t realy know if there is any subharmonics created, it´s what i personally believe and i can´t back it up with science. If some one would like to record a harmonica and do a spectrum analysis i´m eager to see the result and give my input.
Reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmholtz_resonance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triangle_wave
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proximity_effect_(audio)
Video:
Helmholts resonator - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9XLNH8FPd0
How to create a triangular wave: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lu2nnvYORec
you can se how adding ,the right, harmonics changes the shape of the sine wave.
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MindTheGap
171 posts
Jan 17, 2014
3:18 AM
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Milsson - thank you for writing this, you make many interesting points and I like to understand these things at a fundamental level.
Just focusing on subharmonics, when I read this I tried a quick experiment and could not detect any trace of subharmonics in my own playing - looking at the spectrum in Audacity. I'm not sure the conditions are right to get subharmonics from single notes, but happy to be shown otherwise.
BTW violinists can get subharmonics on single notes by a different bowing pressure. See 'How to Produce Subharmonics on the Violin' by Mari Kimura at the bottom of this page...(only the .wav examples seem to work)
http://web.archive.org/web/20050410192127/http://www.swets.nl/jnmr/vol28_2.html
Myself, I'm convinced from experiment that the answer to thick tone from a single note is less about getting more bass and more about controlling the mix of (normal) harmonics. And this squares with what I've heard from experienced players. As you say, all down the chain from body to mic to amp to speaker. Understanding it and doing it are two different things. But it's good to understand it.
However, if someone is going to show that adding subharmonics is the magic ingredient to thick tone, I want to know about it! That would be a whole new can of worms. Be your own octave pedal.
I'm no longer surprised by the extraordinary things that can be done with this crazy little instrument.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 17, 2014 3:31 AM
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MindTheGap
172 posts
Jan 17, 2014
3:24 AM
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I would just add that I like your way of putting it about mic-cupping that 'all bets are off'. But just to say that technically I think the name 'proximity effect' is for a less extreme thing, a well understood bass boost that I believe is actually included in the design of some mics. Whereas cupping gives a way-off-spec effect with all kinds of distortions. As ever happy to be corrected by those who know.
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kudzurunner
4491 posts
Jan 17, 2014
5:31 AM
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Greg, I agree with you: we're both right. Another way of putting that would be that a player who incorporates the instrumental practices and technical knowledge that both of us supply--the former in my case, both things in your case--will be in the best position to increase his/her low-end sound. You're quite right that the jaw-drop I describe can't actually CREATE a new frequency. All it can do is dial it up, like the slider on a multi-frequency EQ. In effect, the jaw-drop is like putting an amp in the corner of a room in order to take advantage of bass loading. The bass frequencies were always there, but there were dialed way down in the player's tonal mix. Drop your jaw and they come up. Your mouth creates bass loading.
And yes, I completely agree with your insight about a new, lower frequency being produced when a player hits the 1 and 2 draw notes simultaneously. Or at least I have no knowledge that leads me to want to contradict your claim. My ears confirm it and my limited but real knowledge of audio science (my declared major as a freshman in college was audio engineering) leads me to see it as a great explanation, one that every player would be well advised to know about.
As for proximity effect: It's a real, measurable phenomenon, but it should be IN effect as long as the harp is within an inch or inch and a half from the mic. (That's my educated guess, one based on how the mics at radio stations behave.) 99% of amplified harp players cup their harps to mics so that they're LESS than one inch from the mic. Yet the bass produced by that cohort of players varies greatly. I think the tightness of the cup (as Greg pointed out) and the embouchure (the jaw-drop I talk about) have much more to do with how much bass is produced.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jan 17, 2014 5:35 AM
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rogonzab
460 posts
Jan 17, 2014
5:53 AM
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harpwrench, your words mean a lot to me (it is a dream to hear that from you). Thxs for your kindes. And yes, you are right, my -2 and -1 are weak, and I am working on it.
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Slimharp
116 posts
Jan 17, 2014
9:10 AM
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Maybe its my mic maybe not. I notice when I make sure I have as big as possible chamber in my hands between the bottom of the harp and the front grill of the mic it enhances the lower end notes greatly. If I want more of a trebley mid tone I draw the chamber down, the harp closer to the grill.
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Milsson
104 posts
Jan 17, 2014
12:03 PM
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I have to emphasize that this is MY thoughts and what makes some what sense to me.
I´ve been reading a lot about this because i have an idea that probably end up in me spending a lot of money and not getting anything back.
I´ve had a lot to do lately so my "research" hasn´t been moving forward.
The more i think about it i realize that the subharmonic route isn´t what i´m looking for. It´s absolutely something that could happen but i´m not sure.
What i´m sure of is that harmonica is unique in that way that you can "eq" your sound on the fly. We can choose to emphasize the higher order harmonics and play "thin" and emphasize the lows and play "fat" and anything in the middle. It´s like a forth dimension of sound.
Ok you can muffle the strings on a guitar to get the same sound but the spectra on the harmonica is very wide.
I like to ponder over things and find it hard to explain things i "see" inside my head some times. Frank had a thread about Laws rollercoaster and a 3 hole draw bend that was mean as hell, according to him. I totally get what that thread was about. Frank had been studying the song and found something in there that gave him goose bumps, he tried to share his feeling but it didn´t come out the way he saw it in his head.
I get those feelings some times to. For instance i´ve played the song with kid rock and sheryl crowe(picture) for all my friends and told them to listen for sheryl when she realy grolws and sings -"three damn nights". i´m no country boy but that line makes me both sick to my stomach and all warm an tinge ling inside at the same time. But no one really gets what i feel. Pre harmonica i didn´t realize i liked music this much but now i´m hooked.(all harmonica players i´ve meet have a pre and post harmonica "date", dont we?)
With that said i have to say that my chops aren´t what they should be. I practice way to little and that makes me focus on these "philosophical" things instead. Tone, rhythmic phrasing and micro tonality i can control, playing fast is way out of my league.
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MindTheGap
173 posts
Jan 17, 2014
12:31 PM
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Milsson - When you say 'EQ' I say timbre, and I think you are right on money. I've written elsewhere about my pilgrimage to see a harmonica teacher to unpick his basic tone. He is into didgeridoo, throat singing, jaws harp etc. all things that rely on careful control of harmonics (in singing: formants). After analysing his harmonic content I can make my timbre start to sound like his, which is pleasing.
My guess, and it's only a guess, is that the good players do this anyway by instinct, or it emerges over time. I have to do it consciously. Not many other people seem to talk about it, so that's why I think that.
I think there is a lot more to 'tone' than the timbre, but the shaping of timbre does seem to be an important basic thing, and I hear it in the pro performances even if I can't do it.
Anyway it's nice to come across someone else thinking analytically about these things. I'm a scientist by training, so it comes with the job description. I applaud your approach.
As for being hooked on the music in a visceral way - well you are in good company with that one.
rogonzab - sorry this is getting way off your question, but I guess you had your answers already :-) Although if subharmonics were in play, then that would have been another story...
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 17, 2014 12:33 PM
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walterharp
1286 posts
Jan 17, 2014
5:31 PM
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the fishing hole under the big log
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