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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Bending Overblows
Bending Overblows
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Moon Cat
305 posts
Dec 24, 2013
12:04 AM
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Heres a little video I was inspired to do from watching Brendan's fine playing on his new 30 reed harp. These are some licks and ideas one can employ to make a standard 10 hole short harp sound a lot like the Sub 30/X-Reed in places and just a great exercise for making your over blows a bit cooler… I will make a new vid soon continuing on this subject with some scales (2nd position Major, and 2 octave blues). Thanks everyone!-Jason
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timeistight
1465 posts
Dec 24, 2013
12:56 AM
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Great lesson, Jason. Lots to practice there.
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Brendan Power
393 posts
Dec 24, 2013
3:49 AM
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Happy Christmas Eve, Jason! Great playing and teaching, and to hear you were inspired by my playing on the new X-Reed MB30 video is an honour - as you always inspire me so much, brother of the free reed :-)
I agree with you when you say that all approaches to chromaticism on the 10 hole harp are equally valid. I like the sound of good in-control bent overblows, as played by Howard levy, Todd Parrot, you and a few others.
The only caveat I'd offer is that overblowing has been around since Will Scarlett first used it seriously in the late 60s. Then Howard took it up in the 80s and inspired a whole bunch of followers to take that road.
It's now become mainstream, and many players can pop out a few overblows to spice up their playing. But in all that time, there are only a handful of players who can really make it sound great all over the harp, in my opinion. Being generous, I'd say there are maybe 20-30 players that I know of around the world.
Why is that? Because it's NOT easy. You are one of the harmonica greats, and make overbending sound simple :-) But I would wager the majority of players who've tried it would say normal draw and blow bending is way easier to master - and sounds better too.
Not only does accomplished overbending throughout the harp take years and years to master, it takes more than an OTB Manji or Marine Band to do it well. If you have high-level customisation skills you CAN buy a $50 harp and make it work for overblowing, but most players pay experts like Spiers, Sleigh or Filisko to do it for them. That brings the harp price up into the $200-$400 range.
Our X-Reed harps are indeed more complex in construction and pricey compared to an OTB MB or Manji. The MB30, made from two Marine Bands, is our most expensive yet, starting at $360. The price reflects the sheer amount of precision work involved in making these babies, which we will describe in a later video. But the result is fabulous, way better than our custom SUB30s. Once the harp is made, you can just put it to your lips and blow as hard as you want. Richard Sleigh's playing on the MB30 video proves that.
The MB30 is finally a 10 hole harp that sounds great, plays sweet and has 18 simple, stable, controllable draw and blow bends, providing instant easy chromaticism and tons of extra bending expression. It will give the average player a fast way in to get all those extra jazzy notes using simple bending abilities. For the expert harp player it opens up a whole new palette of cool sounds and licks.
We'd love it if the 30-reed harp was were cheaper, and are working on making that happen. We think the MB30 is finally a "proof of principle" for the format. I hope the big manufacturers will take it as their cue to come out with really good 30 reed harps for the mass market.
That would make Zombor and me (and a lot of players around the world!) really happy. I'm sure it will happen in time, it's just too promising a direction for them to ignore for ever.
Overblowing has a big head start and a lot of momentum. Most of the top current 10 hole players players have invested so much time in mastering it, and money on their custom overblow harps, that it will take time for the pendulum to shift. But, as 30 reed harps proliferate, get better, and the price comes down, I think it will happen.
Let 100 Flowers Bloom. For the harmonica market and the players, having plenty of options has to be good :-)
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Dec 24, 2013 3:52 AM
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harpdude61
1931 posts
Dec 24, 2013
5:03 AM
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Great video Moon Cat! This is something I have been working a LOT on lately.
I have been on a kick for awhile now. I have been learning the blues scale, over all 10 holes, in positions 1,2,3,4,5,.
A lot of cool splits and unique phrasing is available.
However, overblows and overdraws are a must and offer a whole new world of very cool blues licks that other harmonica tunings may not. If you can bend an overbend clean and true, your blues playing will take a huge shot in the arm.
1st position: The flat 3rd on 4 ob bent up to the major 3rd is useful in everything from boogie to slow blues....Great wailing note if can bend the 5 ob back and forth between the flat fifth and the major 5th....6 OB is the flat 7th. On a good harp, you can end a phrase on the 6 ob and bend it up two half steps to the root note.
I won't go thru each position, but I'm really digging the 5th position blues scale which has the flat 5th on the 6 ob bending up to the major 5th.
Bending OBs in the middle of the harp allowed me to copy some of the low end licks closer to the same style. Example, 2nd position, releasing the 3 draw bent 1/2 step into the 3 draw unbent. You can get pretty close to the same effect by playing the 6 ob and bending it up 1/2 step.
I got hooked on OBs after meeting Moon Cat a few weeks after I started playing in 2006. It has been a long road, but I love where this OB world has taken my sound.
I find bending OBs very useful when cutting heads with my guitar player. Blues guitar generally bends notes up.
Learning to play overblows adds to all your preferred genres. Learn to bend those overblows and your blues playing especially takes on a new flavor!
Again, great lesson!
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The Iceman
1351 posts
Dec 24, 2013
5:34 AM
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I agree w/most of Brendan's posting.
However...
"Not only does accomplished overbending throughout the harp take years and years to master,"
I have had success when teaching OB early on to beginning students. If I don't mention to them that "It's hard to do", "It's a very advanced technique" and the ever present "It will take years and years to master", most of them take to it as just another bending technique to learn and do quite well.
This is also one reason why some of those young lions (like Konstantin) are playing so well so early on in their careers.
I believe that harmonica pedagogy is evolving and is not the same entity it was when I was coming up and learning over the years.
Hats off to this next generation.
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The Iceman
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Frank
3547 posts
Dec 24, 2013
5:55 AM
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Great Video Jason...Personally I hope Brandon sends you one of his new X-Reed MB30 so you can blow our minds with it :)
All "techniques" have a required learning curve and certainly a required DEDICATION and PERSEVERANCE to their mastery...
If a student wants a certain technique bad enough - (it will be theirs)... If they don't put the weight of a 'timeline' to learn it on their shoulders.
Rushing or wanting mastery NOW is what stifles a students chances of grasping fully any "technique"
Last Edited by Frank on Dec 24, 2013 6:01 AM
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harpdude61
1932 posts
Dec 24, 2013
7:50 AM
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Agreed Frank. That is why he called this training advanced.
I'm with Iceman on this. You wouldn't tell a student not to play bent notes would you? Overbends are just another technique available as the diatonic harmonica continues to evolve.
I started overbending 6 weeks in and have no regrets.
I've heard it said before and I agree that "learning to overbend early in a student's development will make them more proficient at other techniques like blow-bending and draw-bending".
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sonny3
100 posts
Dec 24, 2013
8:07 AM
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You kids with you're new fangled technology.back in my day mouth organs cost a nickel and the wood Combs swelled and made us bleed.If it's easy it prolly ain't worth a damn.
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Zombor Kovacs
5 posts
Dec 24, 2013
9:20 AM
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Hi Everyone,
I just watched Jason’s video. First of all I think the level of his playing is incredible, whether it comes to overblowing or not. I was at SPAH this year and heard a few people playing overblows with stunning confidence. I picked up the harp in 2003 for the first time and shortly after started to design and make harmonicas – by the time only on manual milling machines, only later did I get myself into computer controlled milling machines, computer aided design and manufacturing. And I always did it because I wanted to make harmonicas, extra reed harmonicas. Somewhere in between I met the overblow technique and as I found it a challenge, I learned how to do it. I can overblow and overdraw any note, even low ones but I never got the skill working in my music. I felt it was too uncomfortable. Maybe I am lazy, or maybe I am just a pioneer type who does not take already existing things for granted and doesnt do it just because lots of other people do it. I have nothing against people doing it, I just like to walk my own road. In fact I enjoyed learning overblows, but I did not feel comfortable using them. Especially because I have found the sudden shifts of embochure to overblows rather uncomfortable. I am with Brendan on pointing out the incredible ease Jason is using them, but I have also heard players trying to squeeze out overblows and they just did not sound that easy. If somebody is super talented (not just talented) and has many years of hard work behind, can have the bad habit saying „anyone can do that”. Well if anyone can do it, surely overblowing will become the most popular technique playing the diatonic, time will tell.
I was probably too lazy to invest enough effort to incorporate the technique into music. Now there are different ways of literally bending an instrument into something that will let you play what you have on your mind. The desire has always been there, that is why overblowing was born. As Jason said, it has a number of benefits. As the player itself is a huge part of this instrument, the player can bend his muscle control „software” along with a slight modification of the harp into a new way of playing. It sounds cheap and its easy to say it can be done on a 20-40 dollar harmonica. But only after you have been tweaking it for hours if you know how to do it. And even then you get limitations. You will not be able to play it as hard as you could when you took it out of the box the first time and there are many „Minor” issues you have to deal with when setting up your harp (this was not mentioned in the video). The devil is ALWAYS in the invisible annoying little details which are somehow never mentioned. To take the overblow road, you probably don’t need a CNC machine, a computer and CAD/CAM programs. But once you have it, you have the choice to take another road. The X-Reed road. Probably not too many harmonica players invest into expensive machinery, in this respect it is easier and cheaper to just go and overblow (especially if you have no other choice). But now you have another choice, even if it is not a cheap choice. We took the opposite road if you like, to make a much more comfortable harp to play, invested into the necessary tools to make a technically much more advanced harp. The bending technique is the same as on any traditional bend. Easy, nice and clear bent notes. No glitches, not strange noises when popping that extra note. You can race with a stock VW Golf, which you buy cheap, then modify the hell out of it to twist it into something it isn't and get a quite good result. Or you can build a race car for the exact purpose. Its a matter of choice which is now available.
We were not doing it to beat overblowing. We were doing it because we loved to do it and to offer an alternative we believed in. I did not have a choice years back but to overblow and I did not like it. I had to work hard on creating a choice with my partner Brendan Power. And now we are able to deliver this choice to you as well.
Last Edited by Zombor Kovacs on Dec 24, 2013 9:44 AM
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The Iceman
1352 posts
Dec 24, 2013
10:13 AM
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Zombor...pretty interesting post.
one comment...sez Zombor "If somebody is super talented (not just talented) and has many years of hard work behind, can have the bad habit saying „anyone can do that”. Well if anyone can do it, surely overblowing will become the most popular technique playing the diatonic, time will tell."
The point is that it is easy to teach a rank beginner this technique early on and see where his talent leads him.
It's almost up to the teachers out there to incorporate it into their earlier lesson plans in order to see an increase in this direction.
No matter how popular it may become, I don't believe it will be the most popular technique.
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The Iceman
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Frank
3548 posts
Dec 24, 2013
11:25 AM
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Techniques are easy in music once one has taken the necessary time to master them...
A technique can be accurately perceived as difficult and in reality actually is when your a beginner -
until... focused quality time is spent mastering the certain idiosyncrasies associated with the particular technique to be learned.
So...calling a technique easy or hard is relative to the players perception, And calling it one or the other may or may not carry advantages with it?
It's psychological:)
A player may have considered it hard learning to over-blow, yet mastered them and can use them with great precision musically.
ALSO...
A player may intellectually believe that over-blowing is easy but only seems difficult at present because of its complete newness of trying to learn it, yet struggle and never get really good at them.
So considering something as hard isn't wrong- but may be used as an excuse to quit the goal.
If the perception of "hard" is used to motivate a strong long lasting desire to obtain a certain technical mastery - then "hard" is a stepping stone to a goal - the goal being - obtaining the ease in which technique can be executed effortlessly.
Then, for that player who believed it was hard it is now easy...And can look back and see the many sacrifices taken to reach a certain level of experience.
They then take on a student and wish to lead them down a path that hopefully is much simpler and will say- let me teach you to avoid my mistakes, so to learn the EASY way.
Harmonica technique, simple to learn - Difficult to Master?
Last Edited by Frank on Dec 24, 2013 11:53 AM
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Moon Cat
306 posts
Dec 24, 2013
11:28 AM
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Hey Guys, Thanks so much for watching the video and for the resulting intelligent and stimulating follows ups! I am largely of the mind set that Larry "Ice Man" Eisenberg pointed out: "if I don't mention to them that "It's hard to do", "It's a very advanced technique" and the ever present "It will take years and years to master", most of them take to it as just another bending technique to learn and do quite well." I think Larry hit the nail on the head here. There are to my ears many many young players pursuing very musical avenues using over blows far beyond my own abilities. The existence of this technique from Will Scarlett to now and the debate over the fact that there are not more great over blowers should be understood along side the fact that overblowing has had great challenges along the way both from it's naysayers and it's proponents alike! For years we were told (me included) that this technique was difficult, sounded bad and required hours of customization to our harps, that it had no place in blues music if any music at all. Additionally the limitation of it's visibility from the lac of professional, recording and touring musicians truly did limit the techniques visibility for many years until the popularity of you tube and other online related medias emerged. This has changed and will only change more both for overblowers, valved harp players and X-reed enthusiasts in the future.
I admire Brendan Power very much both as a player a person and a genuine supporter of ALL things harmonica. He is a man of unquestionable integrity, sincerity and brilliant talent to match. His playing of the X-Reed harmonica inspired me to pick up the first harp near me and try to make those sounds, not because I wanted to disprove the validity of that instrument or confirm the validity of mine, but because I wanted to make those sounds and knew that I was doing a bit of it already, I think there are a lot of guys like me out there. The X-reed harmonica, as demonstrated can do many things that the 10 hole short harp cannot (for my money MAINLY deep pitch vibrato on straight blow notes) , however I personally felt the videos and promotions of this instrument concentrated less on the x-reeds unique qualities and ventured into misinformation on the subject of alternative approaches. There is room for: "Let 100 Flowers Bloom" as brendan so poetically pointed out and I walked away after watching the video with a need to express that a flower had already bloomed and more simply that Major scales and more ARE possible, not hard, and have been being played in 12 different positions on standard richter tuned harps. I needed for me and for others to show this. As far as I know I am "on probation" as a Suzuki endorsee, I'm not on their website and receive no monetary funds for playing Manjis or any other 40-50 dollar harp. I don't spend hours customizing harps, it wash't hard to learn and over blows can be achieved by setting action only with a tooth pick in a matter of minutes prior to performance (re-visit Howard Levy's performance on UFO Tofu and other albums he played Golden Melodys on.)
The price of the X-Reed is not an issue with me even though I don't have the money to buy one, the issue with me is only what CAN be played on a regular richter tuned diatonic. Perhaps I am indeed naive' of it's difficulties as You (Brendan ) so kindly pointed out : "Because it's NOT easy. You are one of the harmonica greats, and make overbending sound simple :-) But I would wager the majority of players who've tried it would say normal draw and blow bending is way easier to master - and sounds better too." I'll take that wager my man:) as I pointed out earlier the technique of overblowing has been marred with "Moldy Fig" counter promotions and silent elitist attitudes by it's supporters alike. This has been much more of a hurdle for the technique and it's players then any of the physical and technical challenges actual overblowing presents. I really truly believe this. The psychological implications that the Ice Man pointed out ARE real
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Dec 24, 2013 12:22 PM
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harpdude61
1933 posts
Dec 24, 2013
11:37 AM
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I hope Jason does not mind me posting this video just to add something and show my progress with the topic of discussion...bending an overbend. This is a one take video of some of the licks I have been practicing. Slowly, I have added a few in performance. I find it takes a lot of confidence in yourself and your equipment to rip into bending overblows in front of a crowd.
Thanks again Jason and Adam. The harp is a Golden Melody in Bb. It was a stock GM that I spent about 20 minutes gapping.
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Frank
3549 posts
Dec 24, 2013
11:50 AM
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Your make them sound nice Duane...I don't practice them or use them - I choose to chase and master other issues in which to give my harp playing more expression...Enjoyed that vid though :)
Last Edited by Frank on Dec 24, 2013 11:51 AM
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Moon Cat
307 posts
Dec 24, 2013
11:55 AM
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More recently on this thread Frank has additionally supported the premise that viewing over blows as an "achievement", "difficult" or advanced technique can and is troublesome to their development. In my video I mention initially that this is an "advanced" lesson, I only make this qualification because bending, overblowing and blow bending are needed prerequisite tools for the ultimate success of this technique, bending both on draw and blows are also prerequisite for the x-reed or valved harp alike so the overblow itself is the only additional move needed. I set my Manji's up in 30 minutes to an hour, I do light embossing, novice reed shaping, simple action/offsetting and nail polishing of the rivets. Truly anyone can learn to do this without having had the years of experience/pedigrees I am known for, I have students that I have taught this technique to who are less talented players than myself, but are superior customizers.
The X-reed and other like inventions are the brainchildren of brilliant players, free thinkers and giving people. The prices of these instruments are reasonable in a subjective context to the thinking, hard work, sacrifices, time and expertise that goes into making each one. They CAN do things the 10 hole richter harp cannot. On the contrary the regular short harp IS capable of convincing major scales in 2nd, 3rd position and beyond and can do things the x-reed cannot. Pick your poison, or choose your solution. The claims that it is not possible to achieve some of the x-reeds techniques on the diatonic, or that overblowing is "akward" or that the instrument itself needs to be altered by tuning is false and not just for a gifted handful. It is the omission of these facts that was a residual motivator in my decision to make this video. I work with overblowers every day from all over the world now that I cannot tour and I see it. They frequently come to me this way (overblowing) and yes they are younger at large but not entirely. X-reeds in the hands of Brendan are mind blowing as his altered tuned harps were previously! Valved harps played by PT Gazelle are equally sweet and pretty and I am honored and flattered that both Brendan, Zombar and others have put me into a similar category with overblowing but just as they believe their wonderful invention is accessible to everyone so do I concur that overblowing and other avenues of chromaticism on the blues harp are too.
I will say that it is my belief after many years of pure denial that the 10 richter tuned harmonica is not a fully chromatic instrument. That is hard to admit. Players like Octavio Castro and Howard Levy have come close to moving me away from this belief but in the end I reside with the conclusion that after much effort in the opposite direction that it is not. The 10 hole diatonic CAN play 3 octaves of chromatic scales (with bending and overblowing as the x-reed harp can do as well (without the over blows) but I believe the drawing/blowing movements of the instrument itself, coupled with MAINLY difficult regular BENDING presents a challenge that few instruments in the world suffer. I personally do not believe the over blow itself is soley responsible for the difficulty experienced in playing chromatically. As explained and demonstrated in my video I struggle more with speed and intonation on bend notes than I do with a simple "popped in place" overblow. Thats just me. The future of our instrument is in the hands of the musician not the instrument itself regardless of it's changes, expansions or innovations. A recent thread here highlighted Paul Delays expressive abilities on standard hohner Big Rivers, and I sited Kim Wilson in my video for the purpose of un-qualifying over blows as necessary. Brendan and others expressive attributes on their x-reed harps is JUST as inconceivable and difficult for me to understand and perform as they seem to feel my overblowing abilities are to them. Thats pretty beautiful, fun and exciting and again leaves room for 100 flowers to bloom.-Jason
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Dec 24, 2013 12:17 PM
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Rick Davis
2793 posts
Dec 24, 2013
11:56 AM
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Jason, wow! Amazing and inspiring...
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-Little Rick Davis
The Memphis Mini harp amp
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
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harpdude61
1934 posts
Dec 24, 2013
12:00 PM
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Just one man's journey Frank. We each define our own sound by what styles, techniques, and influences we choose to follow.
To be honest Frank, the whole 7 years I have been playing was not just focused on overbends. I did give equal time to all the techniques and knowledge I needed to reach my goals and how I want to sound.
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Moon Cat
308 posts
Dec 24, 2013
12:15 PM
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Thank you for the video Harp Dude (Duane) very inspiring and poignant here my man! Im touched Sir! great playing.
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Dec 24, 2013 12:16 PM
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Frank
3550 posts
Dec 24, 2013
12:26 PM
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I hear ya Duane...There is so much to learn according to our short and long term goals - and we eventually need to make a decision with what it is we want to get really good at and hopefully one day Master - your OBs and ODs are sounding really nice :)
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Brendan Power
394 posts
Dec 24, 2013
12:32 PM
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Nice bent oveblows, Harpdude :-) And good words from Jason, Iceman, Zombor and everyone. What an interesting and good humoured discussion.
At the end of the day we all love the harp, and every approach sounds good when it's done well. As with the guitar, with its massive range of styles from Segovia to Django to Hendrix to McGlaughlin to Slash, there is no 'right' way to play the harp. We're lucky to have a growing range of options too.
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JInx
690 posts
Dec 24, 2013
1:00 PM
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Is it just me? I don't hear the music.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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1847
1425 posts
Dec 24, 2013
1:26 PM
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Is it just me? I don't hear the music.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Moon Cat
309 posts
Dec 24, 2013
1:36 PM
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That my babe was rocking'!!! LOL Bravo Brendan! Ha!!!!
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Stevelegh
895 posts
Dec 24, 2013
1:41 PM
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I find this all very interesting. I love the customised Marine Bands I bought from Joe Spiers. I love playing harps that I customised myself and I love the SUB 30 I bought from Brendan this year.
Harmonica players second only to crack addicts for their insatiable appetite for their fix. Heh...
For a personal (slighty tipsy) Christmas Eve perspective: I think 30 reed harps are the way forward. The reason is the harps do not require nuanced tinkering to suit the player in the way overblow harps do.
I hope someone like Hohner takes this product on board and employs Brendan and Zombor as consultants with Richard Sleigh overseeing the custom shop.
But what do I know eh? I'm just enjoying myself on Christmas Eve. God bless everyone. xx.
Last Edited by Stevelegh on Dec 24, 2013 1:44 PM
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harpfox
14 posts
Dec 24, 2013
3:03 PM
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Merry christmas y'all.
Interesting discussion going on here...I agree with mooncat and iceman that it is merely a psychological limitation and overblows can be achieved easily.
and the fact that they are way easier than getting in tune draw bends on the lower octave.
As for the X-reed, i refuse to believe they can be played well out of the box. why is Richard sleigh customizing them? and if they cant be played OTB, then whats the point?
the history of harmonica may tell us something..
the harmonica is one big coincidence..initially built to played in first position..
draw bends were seen as a defect early on in their use(by manufacturers, and prob some players too)
it probably took a while for manufacturers to accept draw bends..and intentionally produce harps for the purpose of bending.
The same thing occurred with overblowing, at first they were very awkward. But today, harmonicas have made advances. Typified by mooncat's 20 minute customization.
Its only a matter of time before manufacturers fully accept overblows. And have that in mind when building 10 hole harps.
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arzajac
1227 posts
Dec 24, 2013
8:53 PM
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I finally got a chance to view the whole video and I agree with most of it. But I don't see the need to target x-reed (or other technologies such as half-valving) and favor one technique over another. In the end, the goal is to make the harp produce a sound and some may find one path easier than the other. I think both paths are exciting.
Some may drool over a most innovative new strategy that is built from the classic Marine Band (or one and a half Marine Bands!) while others will feel exhilaration at trying their hard at working on their own harps to make overblows more stable.
While there may indeed be fewer than 20-30 players today that can make bent overblows sound awesome, I don't think that's relevant. How many players today can have really mastered the 3-hole draw bends? Even Jason mentions that the 5 hole OB is easier to hit than the 2 draw full bend.
Joe Filisko describes the ability to control and add vibrato to a 3-hole bend as something that defines a true master.
Did Sonny Boy Williamson fret over his bending technique and worry about hitting that three hole bent to a certain pitch, or did he just make the harp play the music he heard in his head?
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
Last Edited by arzajac on Dec 24, 2013 8:54 PM
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Moon Cat
310 posts
Dec 24, 2013
9:53 PM
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Arzajac: I f you saw the whole video how did you miss the part where I explained how awesome x-reeds are and how there are many ways to chromaticism and artistry with or without over blows, valves, x-reeds etc? The whole idea of all the of above comments from everyone and a lot of the video (which is supposed to be about bending over blows is exactly what you just said: "In the end, the goal is to make the harp produce a sound and some may find one path easier than the other. I think both paths are exciting." So were on the same page completely. Couldn't agree more. No need to go on theres some serious, funny and mutually respectful commentary on all this jazz in the above thread! BTW, not to be nit picky but it was the 1/2 step bend on the 2 draw, :) -Thanks so much for watching and contributing here!-J
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Dec 24, 2013 9:56 PM
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Kingley
3328 posts
Dec 24, 2013
10:00 PM
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Great video Jason. I'm gonna have to try this bending overblows mullarky.
I can play overblows, but don't use them very often as I'm a more traditional style player most of the time. Will that change in the future? Who knows.
It's interesting reading peoples views/experiences with overblows and on using harps such as the X-Reed. Here's my thoughts on the subject. Playing overblows is not that hard to do in my opinion. It just requires learning how to gap your own harp and learning the correct technique. Gapping is something every player should learn to do regardless of playing style or technique. It's essential to make any harp play the way you want it to, whether you overblow or not. Playing an overblow is certainly no harder than controlling the available bends on hole three. In fact i'd say that almost any player that can play bends well is capable of playing overblows Where the difficulties may come for many people, is in learning to use them well musically. That same issue applies to using standard bends, altered tunings, valved harps, 30 reed harps, the SBS, etc. So I'd say play whatever instrument suits you. Personally I prefer to play a standard instrument that is gapped to my taste rather than anything else. It's all just a matter of personal preference. There isn't any right or wrong, just good or bad music and that can be played on any instrument.
Last Edited by Kingley on Dec 24, 2013 11:20 PM
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Greg Heumann
2522 posts
Dec 24, 2013
11:39 PM
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Love Jason's video. Love Brandon's video. There is clearly more than one way to skin a cat.
I'm honored that both of these true virtuosos, who BOTH have a track record of thinking and playing further outside the box than just about anyone else you can think of while keeping it musical and with amazing technical proficiency on "our" instrument - have chosen Ultimate Microphones from BlowsMeAway Productions as their microphones of choice.
Thanks to both of you for everything you do!
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Zombor Kovacs
6 posts
Dec 25, 2013
12:38 AM
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Harpfox: you don't need to believe, you can also try it :-) THere might be a fundamental difference here between stock harps set up for overblows and an X-Reed MB30. Since the latter one has been particularly designed for the purpose - get 10 more bends - it will play those 10 more bends out of the box without any regapping, or modification. It has never been a design principle of the 20 reed diatonic to be able to play overblows. So you need to tweak those harps most of the time up to some degree, otherwise you only get a few of the extra notes without any guarantee. Overblows is a fortunate side effect on the 20 reed diatonic, which come with a tradeoff. YOu can gap your harp to play overblows, but then you lose the ability to play it hard. Some people might say " you don't need to play it hard". Well, this is a limitation anyway no matter what you say. There is no such limit on a 30 reed harp just to mention one factor. I could go on with like what is opening mode and closing mode in which a reed works and why overblows (working always in opening mode) are not equal to normal draws/blows and the bent versions of these but the point is that overblowing is quite an ingenious invention with keeping the harp simple. The player twist himself and the harp to be able to play notes which were not possible before. My problem is just that I am not satisfied with the freedom and quality it gives me and up to my current knowledge it is intrinsically not possible to get reeds in opening mode perform as great as in closing mode. I might have to supply an explanation anyway. DUring normal operation of the reed, the air is always pushing the reed INTO the slot (closing mode). DUring overblows - because that reed sounds which is not ment to - will be pushed AWAY from the slot and starts vibrating less easily this is why you have to gap it close which then stops you from playing as hard as you like. Why do you need to play hard? It is simply more comfortable for a lot of people, on less factor complicating your life. The benefit of overblows is that it can be achieved with 20 reeds and no valves. If a harmonica can be modified to produce guaranteed overblows out of the box which are as easy as any other bend without ANY tradeoffs on how hard you play (also no accidental strange noises when an overblow pops), it surely is the solution everybody is looking for. But for some reason nobody can make such a harp, thats why everybody is regapping them at the minimum, or is customising them more thoroughly. So far it the laws of physics prevail and overblowing obeys these laws. You cannot get everything for nothing. Jason was coming up with the argument that you can achieve basically the same results with a fairly cheap stock harp as with an X-Reed MB30 or SUB30. Again I have to say, you never get something in life for nothing. If you want something, you have to pay. You can go and buy a chinese machine, which looks like a hammerdrill. It even seems to work like a hammerdrill. Or you can go and buy a Hilti, which IS a hammerdrill, is built and designed to be a hammerdrill. When I was at SPAH, I listened to a Joe Filisko seminar and he was telling that many people are still considering our instrument as a novelty. Tell me, which other instrument in the world considered serious and regarded high costs 30 dollars? How do you expect something to be truly serious, perform well and sound great when it costs almost nothing? It is possible in theory, but for some reason it never happens.
Last Edited by Zombor Kovacs on Dec 25, 2013 12:43 AM
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Komuso
264 posts
Dec 25, 2013
2:10 AM
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"How do you expect something to be truly serious, perform well and sound great when it costs almost nothing? It is possible in theory, but for some reason it never happens."
I love what you guys are doing, fantastic work, but this is wrong. Just because something is cheap does not mean it's bad.
Mass production and modern engineering allow Suzuki to sell a Manji in Japan for 3000 yen. That doesn't make harmonica a novelty in anyone's eyes, but a fantastic deal for a musician on a budget.
It's not the price of the instrument that determines it's a novelty. Cheap instruments of all types exist, and some of them are cheap and nasty yet some musicians can still play the shit out of them. Some of them are expensive and brilliantly made as well, and some musicians play them like crap too. Some hit that sweet spot of price and performance, like the Manji etc.
I truly do wish x-Reed the best of luck in getting your design adopted and into mass production to bring the price down (and fully understand the current pricing economics you work under), but don't blame perception of harmonica in the general market on the price of the instrument!
(especially when existing higher end harmonica's already cost upwards of $500 which is way more than an excellent $200 guitar or $100 keyboard)
There's no shame in being a boutique high priced hand made (CNC/3D print being the modern hand made) instrument maker either, if you can make it work for you. There's plenty of people doing this making all sorts of conventional and unconventional instruments.
...sadly out of my price range atm though;-(
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Dec 25, 2013 3:18 AM
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Brendan Power
397 posts
Dec 25, 2013
2:11 AM
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Jason made a good point doubting whether the overblow style and x-reed, even though both can achieve full chromaticism on the diatonic, can truly allow you to play fully chromatically in a musical way in the same sense as instruments like piano or even the standard chromatic harmonica.
The difference between those instruments and the overblow/x-reed approach is that they have all the 12 tones built in, in every octave. The overblow/x-reed style on diatonic has to create many missing notes through embouchure control, which is harder.
So playing in C# on a C harp is a LOT tougher than playing in C, as most notes of the scale will be overblows or bends, requiring very high-level skills to keep everything sounding sweet. On piano or chromatic harmonica all notes are there, it's just a matter of mastering the sequence without any special extra technique.
But it's not cut and dried. Howard Levy, Octavio Castro and a few others have shown that all keys are possible on overblow diatonic - it just takes lots of dedication to master them. That being said, Howard will select a few favourite positions for a given key or style to give him the flavour he wants. Hence he still carries a full set of 12 or or more harps in his case, not just one harp.
The same principle applies with the x-reed style: it will always be more comfortable playing in some keys than others.
However, there are other instruments more akin to the diatonic that can provide inspiration. Both the violin & slide trombone have to played 'by ear', because most notes have to be pitched by the player getting his/her fingers or embouchure just right. Think of all the amazing and complex music played on those instruments!
Overblowing has been around about 53 years since Will Scarlett pioneered it, but only widely known since about 1990 when Howard came to people's attention. The 30 reed x-reed is just born, first launched in an unsatisfactory version (the stock SUB30) about 18 months ago. Only in the last two weeks have we finally got two 30 reed harps (the X-Reed ExtraBend and MB30) that play well throughout the whole 10 hole range without glitches etc. One of them, the MB30, has the same reedplates and essential tone as the overblowers' favourite: the Hohner Marine Band.
In music historical terms both approaches are in their infancy. Give us as long as the violin has had and see what players will produce on the 10 hole harp! Its intrinsic soulfulness will drive players to keep pushing the boundaries of what's possible , and we will hear some amazing and beautiful new sounds coming out of the harp in years to come.
But it doesn't stop here. There is plenty of mileage in future harmonica development to get even more easy chromaticism plus keep that essential soulfulness. If anyone is interested, I've written an article on how I see harmonica development accelerating in the near future:
The Game is Changing
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Dec 25, 2013 8:47 AM
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harpdude61
1935 posts
Dec 25, 2013
3:16 AM
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I love to hear all types and tunings of harmonicas.
I'm always ready to see what Brandon is up to when he posts! He plays several genres and he always has the right harp for the job. Sounds that way to me.
Some genres or even specific songs fit better with certain types of harmonicas. Stevie Wonders stuff would not quite be the same if someone did it on an overblow diatonic.
I do however, prefer the overbend diatonic for the blues. A lot of the first octave crossharp traditional licks can be moved up an octave or two as I attempted in my video. Plus the blue notes of the blues scale are notes that bend up. Actually, you can play the overblow flat, which Jason admits to doing sometimes, just so you can scoop it up to pitch.
I do not believe for a second that the diatonic 10 hole harp has peaked as far as innovation is concerned. As the harps and players get better, new techniques will surely rise.
How about the double stops with one OB, double stop with two OBs, splits with overblows? One day, somebody is gonna come out in first position and play the 1/4 blow split root and knock us over with a split overblow of an octave flat 3rd!
Greg, what about the dude in the other video? He got his mics and wireless system from the same company....lol...Merry Christmas
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arzajac
1228 posts
Dec 25, 2013
5:38 AM
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Jason - I reckon I sounded a little divisive. That was not my aim. I only wanted to point out that some of the things that are hardest to master don't even require these extra (overbent, xtra-reed or half-valved) notes.
I think you did everyone a big favour by making this video. To someone who has never heard of overblows and this video is their first experience hearing about them, you really put things into perspective.
You were/are a big part of establishing overblows as the norm and now the norm is being challenged. This latest video is the perfect response to that challenge. And that's all I wanted to say - without picking sides...
Merry Christmas!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica service and repair.
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The Iceman
1353 posts
Dec 25, 2013
6:32 AM
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Brendan brings up a great mental image and shift in perception regarding harmonica when he mentions that one may think of diatonic harmonica a lot like a fretless instrument like a violin or like a trombone - in which the notes must be created by an understanding of muscle placement and position of finger on fret board or where to position the trombone slide.
I take it a step further by suggesting to my students to imagine a combination fretted and fret less bass guitar. Some notes are "given" while others must be created through technique. (Actually, a more accurate instrument would be a sitar, but most don't really know how they are set up and played).
As to the mention above of "cheap instruments", have you heard Howard Levy (or a skilled classical or serious musician) play an ocarina, recorder or penny whistle?
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The Iceman
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Zombor Kovacs
7 posts
Dec 25, 2013
7:44 AM
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Hi Everyone,
To the cheap/expensive thing. Certainly a mere price is never something that qualifies an instrument or product. Price is only a number, but usually it is connected to complexity, materials and technology behind which explain the number called - price. Also what is expensive today, can be cheap tomorrow without being low quality or bad, look at computers for example. But also look at the money, time and hard work invested, look at the apparatus behind which make it possible to be cheap. Whenever you have to bring something technical to a new level (this usually means level of complexity of some sort if not in the product, then in manufacturing), you have to invest, and pay a price one way or another. Learing new ways of playing is also an investment of time and effort so you pay a price even if not in the same currency. There will always be people who - as somebody said earlier - can pay a roll of toilet paper and a comb like noone else in the world. If we follow this logic, we just have to sit back, and let everybody buy and play toilet paper and a plastic comb. THis might be one philosophy and it will always exist. Up to my knowledge so far - unfortunately - nobody seems to have been able to bring harmonica making to the level, where it plays all overblows reliably out of the box although some instruments are not too far from this level. Today the ability of any harmonica to play overblow notes matching the ease and quality of normal notes out of the box without touching a screw on the harp is - up to my knowledge - not available. A reilable consistent mass production is not solved so the procedure has do be done by hand and today nothing seems to indicate it will change. On the other hand using extra reeds to get the same missing notes has been solved, such harps have been mass produced (Hohner, Suzuki) because the method is suitable for mass production. This seems to be a fundamental difference between an extended range 20 reed harmonica and a 30 or 40 reed harmonica. If you think small, there may not be such a huge difference for many people especially for those who have invested years in learning how to overblow. If you think big and want to make millions of harps which are reliably "overblowable" out of the box there is a difference according to what is available today. I might not be well informed but which harp is set up for clear, consistent, 100% reliable overblows and overdraws on ALL holes out of the box today? If there is one, I might want to buy one myself to play it and feel it. So far all I know is there is nothing you don’t have to tweak, regap, nailpolish or emboss up to some degree and even after this you can't play it as hard as many people would like. THe only thing I have heard of was the B-Radical, but unfortunately it is not made anymore (and was not cheap either).
Mass producibility of a technology is a hard to beat argument in making something popular and available to the masses. Whether it will be extra reeds or somebody comes up with something tomorrow for overblows is a question of the future, but today mass-making is only solved for one of them. It is only a matter of decision if it will evolve into something big. And its you players who will make that decision. This decision can also be choosing none of them if a third, even better way appears. I guess neither me, nor Brendan can stop thinking of new ways, we sometimes do it even in our sleep. So . . . anything is possible cheers for whatever we got today I am really happy with it. And finally, the harmonica is something that can be combined into anything you can possibly imagine, I see no limit into what his instrument can evolve.
Last Edited by Zombor Kovacs on Dec 25, 2013 7:58 AM
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Kingley
3329 posts
Dec 25, 2013
8:05 AM
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The lines between professional custom, amateur custom and out of the box harps seem to be getting blurred a little here. I'd like to address a couple of things to try and clarify that a little.
"Today the ability of any harmonica to play overblow notes matching the ease and quality of normal notes out of the box without touching a screw on the harp is - up to my knowledge - not available."
I'd agree with that statement. However I'd also add that that is where professional custom harps come in for many people. Also with the advent of the internet and the free sharing of knowledge more amateur players than ever before work on their instruments and many get remarkable results from that work. The X-Reed MB30 whilst being to the buyer an out of the box harp starts it's life as some Marine Band parts that are then manipulated to form another product. That by it's very nature is customisation. One would also have to recognise the fact that those same harmonicas also have reed work done to them on some level and are gapped to play well. So therefore it's again a custom harmonica albeit one that is markedly different in structure from a standard 10 hole harp. A "normal" diatonic custom harmonica is also markedly different from a standard out of the box harp.
"I might not be well informed but which harp is set up for clear, consistent, 100% reliable overblows and overdraws on ALL holes out of the box today?"
I don't know of any that are. However a player can with a relatively low level skill set use simple gapping to make those out of the box harps perform adequately for the needs of the majority of players.
Mass production will always be cheaper and will also contain some inherent flaws. That is just the nature of the beast.
I applaud the work done by people like Zombor and Brendan and am intrigued by where it will all lead. As to whether or not it becomes the "norm" for most players to use harps like the X-Reed MB30 only time will tell.
Last Edited by Kingley on Dec 25, 2013 8:12 AM
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Moon Cat
311 posts
Dec 25, 2013
8:57 AM
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Hey everyone: First thanks Arzajac! That was very nice of you!This is some awesome debating with so many subjects of great importance springing out of it.I seriously just want people to remember one thing: My video is really only about bending over blows and cool ways to use them.
I play pretty damn hard/forceful when I'm not playing actual over blows (sometimes even on them) or just when I want to, or get in the heat of the moment, any of my videos, records or shows will confirm that..I would even say I think I play harder then Brendan does incidentally. I do believe focusing less energy in the right way for more efficient results is a better approach to simply anything you want to do. It's the whole Bruce Lee postulate. Efficiency is important and becomes more important the better you get at anything. Paul Linden was Sean Costello's old harmonica player before Sean passed away and still lives in Atlanta as far as I know. Paul is one of my favorite harmonica players ever and he plays VERY hard. Paul is an overblow player. He sounds like Big Walter with overblows often, Cotton at other times and maintains more traditional Chicago flavor while using overblows then I or almost any of us could ever hope to have. Also Adam plays pretty hard too. RJ Harman is quite capable of getting carried away too by the heat of the moment and you don't hear his harp stopping up. Zombar has pointed out that setting up harps for overblowing results in a sacrifice, I only half agree…Sure you can't blow with ALL your might into the 5 blow and expect it to sound on a well gapped harp but you can't do that on a ton instruments.Anyone that wants to do that SHOULD be playing a 30 dollar or cheaper harmonica because regardless of what make/model they are going to be blowing reeds out of tune very quickly. Nothing would scream "Novelty" more than people blowing needlessly hard on ANY harp, not tweaking them or tuning them and then just throwing them out and buying another one regardless of price. The great BBQ BOB Maglinte from Boston is also a serious traditional player who preaches the benefits of playing with more control, less effort and softer in general. Little Walter additionally,clearly, is not playing hard almost all the time.Tweaking a harp for overblows does not sufficiently limit hard playing enough to limit a players expression regardless of genre. Speaking of that, the idea that an instrument should come out of the box ready to play will simply never be true across the board. If your trying to play advanced stuff on any instrument (guitar,Sax, drums etc) your going to NEED to know how to tune, tweak, reed shape, adjust action, bridges, valves and more. Thats just the world. Nothing could make the harmonica MORE of a novelty than the idea that it dose not ever need to be opened up, tweaked, tuned and adjusted. This IS part of playing music for the intermediate player and beyond, knowing how your instrument works and responds will help you play it better. Being able to make your instrument suit you is something by nature no factory will ever be able to do.
Again my video is NOT about why overblows are a better road than the X-Reed. It's not. It's about my road, and there are only two reasons why the X-Reed is mentioned in it, First: That Brendan plays cool licks using the x-reed that inspired me to come up with some similar ones using over blows and two: That the x-reed video sights over blows as "awkward" and makes further ommisons (on the subject) that these notes "Were previously not possible". I have stated over and over again in the video and on this forum that the X-Reed DOES do things the diatonic cannot but a chromatic scale is NOT one of them. The X-Reed does so many extra cool things the blues harp (customized or not) can't do I truly don't see why the discussion hasn't already moved in that direction. That would make it more desirable for sales to the overblower and non alike. No? My video was only to teach people how to best bend overblows and why, and to remind that the chromatic scale is possible.Meow.
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Dec 25, 2013 9:18 AM
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The Iceman
1354 posts
Dec 25, 2013
9:02 AM
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Very nice posting by Jason "Moon Cap" Ricci.
Happy Holidays everyone.
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The Iceman
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Kingley
3332 posts
Dec 25, 2013
9:08 AM
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"I do believe focusing less energy in the right way for more efficient results is a better approach to simply anything you want to do"
Amen to that!
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Pistolcat
563 posts
Dec 25, 2013
12:16 PM
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Great video, Jason! Good topic that's truly yours. I have played for two and a half years now and I'm with you, harp dude and iceman about OB:s being no more difficult than well intoned regular bends. My three hole bends are a lot worse than my 6 OB which I use a lot. (Yes, I agree, with anyone that have have heard my playing, that they are both faulty. But more so the three hole!).
Second position blues and third position (natural) minor just feel stumped without OB:s. To me fourth position natural minor feel very unnatural and I realise that it has a lot to do with me not practising the blow pattern enough but third with a 6OB just feels better with that i chord on 456 draw and everything... Though very hard in the lower octave.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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mr_so&so
776 posts
Dec 25, 2013
1:03 PM
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This is a great topic, about the cutting edge of harp playing and development. Thanks to Jason for yet another great video and to Brendon and Zombor for cutting edge thinking and engineering. As a player I appreciate you all for your dedication to advancing the instrument we love.
As a developing player, I have been interested in learning how to squeeze as much expression as possible out of my harmonicas. For a long time, I didn't worry about overbends and chromatic playing, but eventually I started trying overbends, and gapping my harmonicas to make them possible. I tried half-valving too, but didn't like the results. I've not had enough cash to try an X-reed harp yet. If the prices come down due to mass manufacturing, I certainly will.
I think we are still in the beginning phase of discovering what is possible with the harp, even for overbending. Despite its several-decades history, overbending has been until the last few years, still shrouded in mystery and believed to belong to an elite few. Now the mysteries are becoming clarified through the spread of information on this forum and elsewhere, and even beginning and intermediate players like me are having success. I use inexpensive harps and just gap them, and yet I'm happy with the degree of success I've getting with overblows. Right now I'm just working on the 4, 5, and 6 overblows. I'm also a tongue-blocker. I think there is still some work to do to fully describe the technique and expose how much is technique and how much is customization of the harp.
In the service of exposing what is possible, that bending overblows is possible with inexpensive harps, by intermediate players, with various embouchres, I submit a short sample of bending a 6ob in TB embouchre on a cheap Big River harp. I'm just learning how to do this, so I assume I will get better at it over time. I also look forward to using better harps.
Thanks for a great discussion and happy holidays everyone.
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Last Edited by mr_so&so on Dec 25, 2013 1:05 PM
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Zombor Kovacs
8 posts
Dec 25, 2013
2:48 PM
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Kingley:
You are right, that the MB30 is produced from manipulated out of the box parts, but it is not customisation in the traditional sense. This harp in the first place is redesigned then remanufactured. Up till this point the harp has seen nothing which people call customisation today. It is made of two traditional harp sets which had the ability to perform great as traditional uncustomised 20 reed harps out of the box. Consequently the standard MB30 built from these has the ability to perform great as a 30 reed harp right out of the box. However - as it is offered for many good quality 20 reed models to make them even better - we offer versions which get additional treatment with the tools of traditional customizing, these models are the Embossed and the S models customized by Richard Sleigh.
The base model, the standard MB30 has the ability to reliably play the missing notes/bends with untouched, original factory slots and reeds.
Last Edited by Zombor Kovacs on Dec 25, 2013 2:51 PM
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CapitalG
24 posts
Dec 25, 2013
5:02 PM
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This thread is interesting. I'm at point where I am now considering what approach to take for chromaticism on the diatonic. I love my blues and prewar but am also venturing into other genres which would benefit from expanded note choice melodically .
I put a bit of time into setting up OB harps just basic gapping and embossing back when I previously LP all the time with fairly quick success.
I moved away from LP and into full time TBing but cannot yet effectively OB consistently using TB as it hasn't been a priority.
As a TB player the MB 30 greatly interests me for expanded possibilities that work to the harps strengths (well my opinion of the harps strengths) being the chordal sounds and the new bent note combination.
However I do also agree with mooncat that OBs are just another technique no harder than bending if LP.
I'm not so sure about TB OB ease, but in reality of the amount of practise I have spent getting bends in pitch with good tone in any movement pattern it is huge. If i was to give the same amount of time working on OB whlist TB I'm sure the results would be worth it but would the same time spent on MB 30 provide greater results?
On the cost issue, the MB30 is reasonable for a top custom harp when compared to a spiers etc and has greater capabilities in so far as a new array of new sounds.
In contrast, is a custom OB harp worth it or even necessary in the long run?(especially if the likes of mooncat are using stock manjis with up to 1hour maintenance work added) I ultimately can't say as I haven't tried a custom OB harp.
I would love to see an experiment where a TB player, who is looking to go into full chromaticism is given spiers lvl 3 and the new MB30 come back in a year to see the results.
Ahem.... If anyone wants to supply the harps I would willingly be the guinea pig hahaha. No seriously I would!
Great to see everyone getting productively involved in this discussion.
G
Last Edited by CapitalG on Dec 25, 2013 5:15 PM
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Moon Cat
312 posts
Dec 25, 2013
5:25 PM
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Zombar : I have a fun challenge for you man. Mail me a Marine Band Deluxe or Cross Over in the unopened plastic box, I will open it up on you tube and try and play the "Missing Notes"….Up to it? No gapping or anything, if I can't make the one over blow I will use a tooth pick and do it within 2 minute period tops without taking the cover plates off. Just for fun.
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Moon Cat
313 posts
Dec 25, 2013
5:29 PM
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If I can't do it, I'll customize it for you and send it back, If I do, you make me a deal on an x-reed…jason
Last Edited by Moon Cat on Dec 25, 2013 5:30 PM
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Komuso
265 posts
Dec 25, 2013
5:32 PM
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@Brendan re:
The Game is Changing
Great article, and it's good to see a living case study using the technology. I wouldn't be dissing the big manufacturers though, considering they seem to be a critical part of your supply chain;-)
It's early days, and combined with the revolution (that is really just beginning) in small manufacturing robotics, has a very long way to go.
This is a good primer on where it might go, based on the history of technology evolution and adoption curves.
A Skeptic’s Guide to 3D Printing
"And, although most applications will remain niche, 3D printers can trigger new business models thanks to their ability to readily share digital designs. For example, users have already created an open source community around MakerBot’s Thingiverse. Although this community is still in the nascent stages, thoughtful entrepreneurs will undoubtedly find a way to profit from such ecosystems as the 3D printing industry shakes up and then settles around common standards. The sheer accessibility to a means of production without prohibitive startup costs creates a flatter playing field, bringing more designers into open competition. Companies that lack scale economies can cost-effectively pilot a design concept, but successful designs will ultimately migrate to large-scale, mass production."
Due to the economics of this model entailing a high unit cost (ie: it's boutique/custom, and unlikely to change soon) I think your marketing message might need a little customization, given some of the discussion sparked by this thread.
Jason nailed it on the head with
"The X-Reed does so many extra cool things the blues harp (customized or not) can't do I truly don't see why the discussion hasn't already moved in that direction. That would make it more desirable for sales to the overblower and non alike. No?"
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
Last Edited by Komuso on Dec 25, 2013 8:22 PM
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Brendan Power
401 posts
Dec 25, 2013
11:27 PM
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Interesting comments Komuso. I wasn't really dissing the big harmonica manufacturers in my article, just pointing out that the proliferation of affordable digital manufacturing technology is moving goalposts that have been set in place for an awful long time.
It means they will no longer have a monopoly on deciding what harp designs are available to buy. And, because their priority is mass sales (which entails caution in what is released to avoid big losses), harmonica innovation will increasingly come from creative small companies like X-Reed and similar. We now have the ability to make complex things in small batches and can be much more nimble in creating new models or reacting to customer demand.
In some ways the new small digital makers like desktop 3D printers and CNC machines are taking us back to the early days of harmonica manufacturing, when it was a cottage industry in the German forests. At that stage there was a huge variety in designs, tunings, types etc, which later became consolidated in just a few stock models with variations: mainly the Richter 10 hole harp and Solo tuned chromatic.
Having worked for one large harmonica manufacturer myself, I know how carefully every decision must be weighed. With potentially hundreds of thousands of each part to be made there is little room for error, as the costs of slow-moving stock can be enormous. That means decisions take a long time to be made and there is sometimes a tendency to play safe in choice of designs & materials. I found this very frustrating at times, but I can see why it was necessary.
I believe that the big harmonica companies should view the advent of small start-ups like X-Reed in a positive light. There is no competition because we do different things. In a very important way we are doing them a favour, because we represent a kind of external R&D Department for them. We take the risk and release far-out designs that may or may not find favour with the players. They can see the ones that catch on, and then come out with their own versions.
There can be a positive symbiotic relationship, if the big manufacturers can see things outside the old box. That will require fresh thinking on their part, which is not always easy in a large old organisation. So far my experience has been that they're very suspicious and uncomfortable about such ideas, but I believe that will change. I certainly hope so, anyway!
Last Edited by Brendan Power on Dec 26, 2013 12:19 AM
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Brendan Power
402 posts
Dec 26, 2013
12:10 AM
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On your last point I agree with Jason and you: there is no reason why a player can't follow both the overblow and x-reed approaches to chromaticism on the blues harp.
They're doing it already: look at Filip Jers and Koei Tanaka. Both are top level overblow players who have also recorded some beautiful stuff on the Suzuki SUB30.
But I personally believe that as the prices come down, keys proliferate and OTB quality of 30 reed harmonicas matches any good traditional diatonic, the average player and professional alike will gravitate more towards them.
Despite the great sounds that players like Jason, Todd Parrot, Howard Levy and others can make on overblow harmonicas, which I respect and applaud, I still say that bending is intrinsically easier for most players - and sounds better too.
In my opinion bent notes are more supple, slinky & sexy, and you can add vibrato anywhere in the bend. Given a choice between overblows/overdraws and draw/blow bends to get the same notes, I'd choose the bends because I feel they are more emotive and flow in a smoother way to adjacent notes.
It's all subjective! But it has to be a good thing that there is now more than one way to get jazzy on the blues harp.
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Komuso
266 posts
Dec 26, 2013
12:18 AM
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I'd agree with all that Brendan.
"We now have the ability to make complex things in small batches and can be much more nimble in creating new models or reacting to customer demand"
Just I would add to that "but at a much higher price". Which is a limiting factor on one dimension as customers (harp players) are generally operating to a budget.
Cost and Risk also don't disappear just because you are smaller and more nimble, they just take a different form.
"That will require fresh thinking on their part, which is not always easy in a large old organisation"
That's a rerun of an old movie, some companies/industries make it out the other side and some die.
Here's to symbiosis!
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Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa
HarpNinja - Your harmonica Mojo Dojo
Bringing the Boogie to the Bitstream
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