kudzurunner
4366 posts
Nov 10, 2013
3:24 PM
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Joe, I'm intrigued by Dave Waldman's name on your list. Please post one video or recording (if he has any available recordings) that show evidence of anything that might be called originality, as opposed to strict adherence to the established outlines of Little Walter's style. I just don't hear it. But perhaps you'll post something that will blow me away.
What doesn't blow me away in that way is the following video, part of David Barrett's series on top players. This, to me, showcases Waldman's sound beautifully--and there's much to like here. But I don't get any sense, really, of originality. It's not enough just to have The Sound. You've got to take it and do something with it. Or at least that's how I feel. It's also why I agree with many of your other choices, including Billy Branch and Sugar Blue.
Here's the clip. If you want to convince me that David has added something original to the tradition, please follow this up with whatever Waldman magnificence you've got ready to throw back at me. I am willing to stand corrected:
I don't mind stylistic historians, by the way. Joe Filisko is a brilliant one--and his heart burns very hot, letting the angry blues shine through. I'm surprised he doesn't make your Top 10.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Nov 10, 2013 3:28 PM
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JInx
621 posts
Nov 10, 2013
3:29 PM
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@Steamrollin Stan "Whats the point?"
The point is, there is a need in us to establish some form of validation. We've committed our best efforts to define ourselves through music and now we need to make sure everyone knows our pantheon is just and true. Defend to the end!
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kudzurunner
4367 posts
Nov 10, 2013
3:53 PM
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Who is "defend[ing] to the end"? I wrote "I am willing to stand corrected."
Now, if I'd written, "I know that Jinx, that troll, will--sob!--disagree with my sacred list, and he's wrong, wrong, wrong!"....
Well, then you'd have a point, by golly.
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JInx
622 posts
Nov 10, 2013
4:18 PM
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Don't be so self centered kudzu. We all make lists.
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JInx
623 posts
Nov 10, 2013
4:18 PM
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repeat post
Last Edited by JInx on Nov 10, 2013 4:26 PM
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JInx
624 posts
Nov 10, 2013
4:18 PM
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repeat post
Last Edited by JInx on Nov 10, 2013 4:26 PM
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Joe_L
2397 posts
Nov 10, 2013
10:48 PM
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Hey Adam - The question was, "Who do you think belongs on a list of the top 10 living harmonica players?"
Dave Waldman is one of my favorite living players. I've seen Dave throughout the course of the past 30 years. I enjoy Dave's playing. He's a rock solid traditional player. If you lived in Chicago, you would know who he is. He's has performed with a multitude of legendary artists. I first ran across him when he was playing with Big Smokey Smothers.
The beauty of these lists is that they are open to interpretation. Dave has been influential on a number of players around Chicago. He's got a cult following. It's okay, if you aren't a member of the cult. There are guys on your list that you really dig that don't move me. That's the nature of music.
We don't have to agree on everything, do we?
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The Blues Photo Gallery
Last Edited by Joe_L on Nov 10, 2013 10:57 PM
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Kingley
3263 posts
Nov 10, 2013
11:06 PM
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Martin Lang is a player I hadn't heard of before. Thanks for bringing him to my attention Joe.
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Joe_L
2398 posts
Nov 10, 2013
11:12 PM
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Martin is a bad, bad man. He's got a really cool sound with a kick ass chimey sustain to his tone. He's played with Taildragger for the past two decades. He's got a handful of cool recordings under his own name on some obscure harp compilations. He's on some of Taildragger and Rockin' Johnny's recordings on Delmark.
I really enjoy his playing.
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The Blues Photo Gallery
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Kingley
3264 posts
Nov 10, 2013
11:28 PM
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Thanks for the info Joe. I'll hunt down the recordings.
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Frank
3237 posts
Nov 11, 2013
4:19 AM
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Bob Corritore is a staple harpists in the blues world :)
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The Iceman
1266 posts
Nov 11, 2013
5:00 AM
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I tend to agree w/Kudzu re:Waldman/Barrett students, et al.
There is a contingency of teachers/philosophies in blues harmonica that seem to focus on reproducing sound/melodic ideas, etc of others.
While I understand how this is attractive for so many, personally I look for creative musical ideas first with duplication of the sound/crunch of others is further down the list of impressive achievements.
This is also one area in which I appreciate what Joe Filisko does, but don't see him teaching anything about understanding how to create an individual voice on the harmonica - which is directly related to an innate understanding of music and a genre or two.
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The Iceman
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Frank
3240 posts
Nov 11, 2013
5:43 AM
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"how to create an individual voice on the harmonica"
One reason individual voices are rarely heard - is that these players, when the rubber hits the road have nothing of any real musical significance to offer...
In other words their "individual voice" ends up being uninspiring, shallow and often lacks the potency needed to be exciting or interesting.
These teachers Barrett/Gussow etc.. point to the roads of excellence for the student to successfully travel and vacation at the masters feet.
And they also teach enough theory for a student to realize that they have access and can use the same notes the Masters had to work with...
Their students are told that they can freely use these same notes any way they please to make up and create their own unique individual shit.
The student has the brunt of the responsibility when it comes developing an original/individual voice.
If the desire to be a truly individual voice is not an innate longing goal - odds are, the VISION to execute the necessary ingredients for a powerful individual voice to transpire will never be realized.
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 11, 2013 6:01 AM
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The Iceman
1267 posts
Nov 11, 2013
6:00 AM
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sez Franko "And they also teach enough theory for a student to realize that they have access and can use the same notes the Masters had to work with to make up and create their own unique individual shit."
Haven't seen much evidence of this from the teachers mentioned. They are more of a cut and paste memorized solo's created by others approach.
When I teach, I very rarely have the students memorize solos in order to gain this knowledge. Instead, I'll start them with very simple few note ideas and lead them into placing the notes and/or adding a note or two in real time as I play piano back up for them.
This starts them on the path of individual voice very early on in learning to play rather than the old school concept of memorizing a ton of other's solos before venturing into original territory.
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The Iceman
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Frank
3241 posts
Nov 11, 2013
6:06 AM
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The evidence is prevalent, try to see a little harder Larry :)
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The Iceman
1269 posts
Nov 11, 2013
6:39 AM
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OK. I will.
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The Iceman
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Kingley
3266 posts
Nov 11, 2013
6:53 AM
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"When I teach, I very rarely have the students memorize solos in order to gain this knowledge. Instead, I'll start them with very simple few note ideas and lead them into placing the notes and/or adding a note or two in real time as I play piano back up for them."
How successful has that approach been Larry? Correct me if I'm wrong but am I right in thinking your most "famous" student is RJ Harman? He pretty much plays other peoples music note for note last I heard and doesn't really have his own voice does he? Please don't misconstrue my questions as "having a go" as that's not my intention. I'm simply interested in what level of success you've had in teaching people to use their own voice early on.
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MN
287 posts
Nov 11, 2013
7:12 AM
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Here's the top 10 living BLUES harp players who move me ... No particular order:
Kim Wilson
Sugar Blue
Jason Ricci
Adam Gussow
James Harmon
Carlos Del Junco
Mark Ford
Dennis Gruenling
Charlie Musselwhite
Rod Piazza
(Modern guys who'd make my list if they hadn't gone and died: Gary Primich, Paul deLay, William Clarke, Lester Butler.)
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Frank
3242 posts
Nov 11, 2013
7:22 AM
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It's difficult to teach the simplicity the Masters used to create an original, meaningful individual voice...
Students are shown the notes etc...but the magic of originality is going to be the students revelation, it has to come from within.
The Masters are able to make simplicity seem complex...
The scales and chords are taught to all students - give the student the notes GBDF the 2,3,4 and 5 draw on a "C" harp. They are taught that is a chord etc, and they can make music with those notes.
To help spark their imagination a teacher will show them the many uniquely intelligent ways someone like Little Walter has created some of the greatest licks in the history of the harmonica with those 4 notes.
This is a time honored way to give a student, insight to the musical secrets of masterful simplicity. It will click with some, others they just won't see the bright light pointing to the endless original ideas awaiting their permission to be exhumed and brought into musical existence..
So when a Teacher shows a student how a Master can use 1 note to say something powerful enough to fill an empty library with books full of musical information. That is either going to be a light bulb moment for the student or possibly a road block.
It's only one note - I can't possibly say anything worth listening too with one note a certain student may think to themselves...and not dig deeper, feeling yeah it was good for the Master but it bores me, thus spoiling an opportunity to learn originality concepts from the best of the best.
The next student getting the same lesson may be so intrigued and moved by what they heard...Inquires, searches and tries desperately to learn everything they can about that 1 note from their Teacher and anywhere else for that matter.
Their hard work pays off and NOW they too own that same note the Master did and can use it naturally at will, expressing themselves anyway the music may need it.
There comes a point where the student is ultimately to blame for their own success or failure :)
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 11, 2013 7:39 AM
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The Iceman
1270 posts
Nov 11, 2013
7:38 AM
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Kingley sez (and rightly so) "How successful has that approach been Larry? Correct me if I'm wrong but am I right in thinking your most "famous" student is RJ Harman? He pretty much plays other peoples music note for note last I heard and doesn't really have his own voice does he? Please don't misconstrue my questions as "having a go" as that's not my intention. I'm simply interested in what level of success you've had in teaching people to use their own voice early on."
1. I don't consider RJ my most "famous" student. That mantle belongs to Sunny Girl.
2. I "fired" RJ as a student for two reasons
a) His refusal to find his own voice in favor of memorizing other's creativity and calling it his own.
b) His immature attitude at following through with basic honest committments/promises and having to chase him down through his parents for money owed to me for lessons and a loan.
So, while I don't like to call RJ one of my own on many levels, I did teach him all the basic techniques he uses to "Steal/Borrow" from others, not realizing that that was his end game.
Aside from this sad scenario, all the other students have quickly started crafting their own "voice" solos early on.
The most amazing is Sunny Girl, who continues to amaze me at what she can do. Unfortunately, her music direction has been on the back burner for a few years while she finished college and began a career as a web graphics designer for Quicken Loans in Detroit.
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The Iceman
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Kingley
3268 posts
Nov 11, 2013
8:24 AM
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Thanks for clearing that up Larry.
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JInx
626 posts
Nov 11, 2013
8:29 AM
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Original voice in the blues? Like all musical genres eventually they get tapped out. And the blues is no different, it's all pretty much recycled now.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
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Frank
3243 posts
Nov 11, 2013
8:43 AM
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Individuality in music I think is a much easier row to hoe than originality.
A player can be individually a great player yet not be original in the truest sense of the word.
There are players who seem original in their own way yet when you peel away the layers - what they are is more of a great individual player.
I'll use myself as an experiment here...Does it seem like I have a musical identity here?
And here is the original :)
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 11, 2013 9:35 AM
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JInx
627 posts
Nov 11, 2013
9:55 AM
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I think, once we plop ourselves into some generic homogenized prefactorized academically pedagogical rhythm backing "blues" track, it's pretty damn hard to jump out as an unique sound, unless you're like a Jeff Beck or someone.
A big part is in the rhythm and there's only so many ways to mix it up.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by JInx on Nov 11, 2013 2:25 PM
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Frank
3245 posts
Nov 11, 2013
10:28 AM
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Right - that is the heart of the matter, being unique in some kind of way...
And that is difficult for most musicians whether they are with a live band or a BT...
But it is the Players that can seem fresh in some interesting way regardless of whether there is a backing band of some sort or not who appeal to us as having that special extra ingredient.
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The Iceman
1271 posts
Nov 11, 2013
10:35 AM
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Wanna sound hip and creative w/out learning new melodic ideas?
Take a tip from one night in my Top-40 Band in which the guitar player, for some reason, was hearing the downbeat (1) a half a beat later than was happening. He didn't give up the ghost the whole song while the rest of the band was right on.
The result was the hippest sounding guitar solo he ever did and the whole song sounded creative without falling off a cliff.
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The Iceman
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Frank
3247 posts
Nov 11, 2013
10:45 AM
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In agreement wholeheartedly...I understand your saying his coolness was a supposed mistake, which they often are...But the more a player can consciously use rhythm inventively, the more that player will be recognized as portraying uniqueness.
And though the Band or Bt may be locked into a Groove - It is the improvisers responsibility to use the freedom of that Groove to lay down some funky and cool rhythmic railroad tracks :)
A player can't blame the rhythm section for their own lack of improvisational imagination. If someone blames a BT or Band that is laying down a solid steady groove for them sounding poor or uninspired - then they should look in the mirror to see what the real problem is :)
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 11, 2013 11:04 AM
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JInx
628 posts
Nov 11, 2013
11:09 AM
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I disagree. The band and the soloist are heard together as music. If one or the other is boring, the whole sound will suffer….with rare exception.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by JInx on Nov 11, 2013 11:12 AM
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Frank
3248 posts
Nov 11, 2013
11:14 AM
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My point exactly...If the Groove from the BT or band isn't boring - then there is no excuse for sounding boring - unless of course the player lacks imaginative improvisational skills :)
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MUDHOUND
46 posts
Nov 11, 2013
11:18 AM
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>There's many great players, some unknown, some known, stupid posting/blog to tell the truth, it depends on what you/we like, franks a good player, so's Frosty, but thier unknown apart from here.Whats the point?<
exactly, what's the point of this thread?
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Frank
3249 posts
Nov 11, 2013
11:23 AM
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I'm basically using the thread to talk shop in between doing a fall clean-up around the house :)
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JInx
629 posts
Nov 11, 2013
11:32 AM
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Yes. I think it's very difficult to bring a unique sound to the blues these days. It seems there is a trend, at least around here, to follow the sort of jazz formant of; playing the head once followed by a string of extended "solos" then back to head. A I IV V blues combined with a diatonic harmonica is, in my opinion, very limited in this type of arrangement. The shit gets old quick. The great bands, wolf, muddy, elmore etc never played that model. They treated blues more as songs rather then solos. No? As a listener, two chorus's of harmonica solo and I'm done. Unless you've got a lot to say, like a Hendrix best let the song do the talking, IMHO.
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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Frank
3250 posts
Nov 11, 2013
11:51 AM
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Solos or any harmonica interjected into a song gets old for me quick if the players phrasing style has an impersonal and pointless musical direction.
If and when the phrasing is well done and developed logically - then I'm all ears and lovin it :)
Last Edited by Frank on Nov 11, 2013 11:54 AM
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naptown jack
21 posts
Nov 12, 2013
11:00 AM
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My sons, Will and Charlie are tied for first and I'm a distant second as far as my FAVORITE players are concerned. There's probably an army of 'em that are better. Preferences are a matter of taste. There are lots of cliched, acrobatic motherfuckers out there who stick their well-honed licks into the wrong places while playing with others. Guys like Estrin, Wilson,and Portnoy are tasteful and appropriate. Some of the other million or so that ya'll have mentioned are just busy show-offs. While not exclusively a harp man, one of my faves is Delbert McClinton, capable and always right-on appropriate. Along the same line, but more easily debated: what is the beverage of choice to set on your amp so as to wet ons's whistle while playing? Currently mine is a cold Miller High Life longneck and to round out the next 9 would be any other beer they got!
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