blueswannabe
312 posts
Oct 16, 2013
10:16 PM
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Barley, Thanks. Couple things. I tried to get a good cup on each. The 57 for me is hardest to cup. I'm sure a bulletizer would definitely change that and increase the distortion and bass response, and many people can attest to that as well.. The 57 and 58 are both loud and have excellent sound reproduction.
The 58 was easier to cup because of it's design. I do think the 58 is the cleanest of them all. It's omnidirectional.
The 57 requires you to be right on point.
The differences in the elements are very subtle. I think each one of those mics are very fine mics. I have used each one on gigs or jams. I have used a 58 with a harp attack into a PA and got compliments on the sound.
I have a turner ceramic element as well that I forgot to bring out for comparison. That element is loud and a little brighter than the turner crystal. There also is a slight brittle quality to the sound. That's the best way I can describe it.
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Kingley
3212 posts
Oct 16, 2013
10:28 PM
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Another thing to bear in mind is that different amp circuits can react differently to dynamic and crystal mics. The old 1950's Fender small amp circuits such as the 5F1 often seem to prefer crystal mics over anything else. A good CM/CR and some stick mics often over power these circuits and don't bring out the best in the amps tonality. On the bigger circuits such as the 5F6A the CR/CM and stick mics can often be the better choice. Of course all of this depends as well on modifications to the valve compliment of an amp and any circuit changes that may have been made.
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MindTheGap
15 posts
Oct 16, 2013
11:59 PM
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Barley Nectar - I believe you are spot on. I think that the 57 and 58 may share the same capsule (although I'm sure Greg will know exactly) and certainly the free-air sensitivity specs are very close (1.6 mv/Pa and 1.85 mv/Pa). The big difference you get when cupping must be down to the grills, geometry, and foam. I was surprised by this.
I read that people sometimes take the grill off a 58 to get the extra cupped output, and my tests with my other vocal stick-and-ball mics bear this out. On the same mic, taking the grill off boosts the signal cupped signal. It's a big difference, not subtle.
Hakan Ehn has an interesting video where he mods various mics and gets these increased-cupped-output effects. He adds rubber tube to a 57 and 545, and removes the ball of a weak vocal mic.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ifIVLY6ag
Personally, I find the 57 the easiest to cup well using MoonCat's excellent technique. But all that side I guess is subjective, hand shape and size etc.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 17, 2013 12:08 AM
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MindTheGap
16 posts
Oct 17, 2013
12:25 AM
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1847 - Re JT30 + Champ. Excellent. As you say, a clearly different sound on these recordings. Both great sounds though. I guess the conclusion is that one mic won't do it all? Also as Kingley suggests that different mics work better with different amps.
As it happens, there is a DM13 on ebay (UK) at the minute so I will have a punt on that.
Maybe it is necessary to become at least a bit of a mic/gear collector to realise the full potential of the amplified harp.
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MUDHOUND
30 posts
Oct 17, 2013
11:32 AM
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SM57 frequency response is 40-15,000 hz
SM58 frequency response is 50-15,000 hz
They are not the same mic internally.
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SuperBee
1482 posts
Oct 17, 2013
12:38 PM
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Thought I'd read here before that the the 57&58 are the same mic with a different head and the difference in sound is entirely due to that. I really don't know. I have both and the difference in sound between them is probably greater than between any other 2 of my mics. But I haven't tried removing the ball off the 58, because I like the 58 the way it is.
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JellyShakersFacebookPage
JellyShakersTipJar
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McSwaggerty
3 posts
Oct 17, 2013
3:35 PM
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Ok, I have been reading this post with much interest. I also play through a few mic's.. JT30...shure ceramic, CR, CM. and also a 57 and 545. I realise this question is maybe taking things further than the original question from mindthegap but....
Presently I have preferred the 57 to the others because I can get more output before feedback, can get a good buzz from it as well.I play through a small HG champ amp , around 7 watts and when I play with the band I mic it up with another 57 to the PA.( Much better than the line out as far as my ears can tell )...I did have a Bassman Ri, but sold it due to me only using it a few times a year and nowadays most of my gigs are in smaller venues. I now get by with the wee HG, mic it to the PA. My Question is - is there a better mic on the market to mic up a small amp to a PA than a 57 ?....something a bit warmer maybe....or should I start looking at Lone wolf or other tone controls ?.... Hey guys, sorry, maybe thats another discussion, just banging in here because I've just come back from a gig, and keen to get things sorted....strike when the Irons hot as they say...sorry mindthegap for hi-jacking your post....and Kingley, you might remember me, you sold me the HG....hope you are well !
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blueswannabe
313 posts
Oct 17, 2013
4:20 PM
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@mudhound, the. CR element is 100 to 7,000 Hz
And the turner crystal element is 50 to 7,000Hz
What does it mean?.. Probably that the cr and crystal elements cut off some of the highs over 7,0000 hz. So what, should harp players care? Do harp players play in a frequency range over 7,000 hz? I don't know the answer to that question.
I think that the four main factors of player, mic, pedal, and amp. With all the variations of each factor make up your sound. It's the combination of each factor with the various tweaks to each of them can emulate or establish the sound that your looking for. We didn't even touch upon electro voice Mics and solid state amps. Billy Branch uses an EV and a solid state amp.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Oct 17, 2013 4:21 PM
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1847
1211 posts
Oct 17, 2013
6:42 PM
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sorry wrong thread lol
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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1847
1213 posts
Oct 17, 2013
7:03 PM
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is there a better mic on the market to mic up a small amp to a PA than a 57
how much do ypu want to spend?
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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1847
1214 posts
Oct 17, 2013
7:04 PM
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What You Want To Call The Link HereWhat You Want To Call The Link Here
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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1847
1215 posts
Oct 17, 2013
7:08 PM
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a 57 works!
try different placements
along the edge of the speaker
you can place it off axis also.....angled
i am surprised how well my fireball works
as you can see it gets used quite a bit.
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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Kingley
3215 posts
Oct 17, 2013
10:33 PM
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McSwaggerty - Yes I remember. Glad you are still loving the little HG1. They are superb amps and have a killer tone. Regarding micing the amp up. There are other mics that will do the job, but they are a lot more expensive than the SM57. The SM57 is the industry standard for a very good reason and for live work it's a very hard act to beat. If you have the available channels on the PA, try micing it with the 57 and using the line out as well. Then you can mix the two signals. To be honest I wouldn't bother springing for another mic to mic up the amp as playing "live" I doubt you'd hear huge benefits tonally. In the studio is where the benefit of a high end mic would be most beneficial.
Last Edited by Kingley on Oct 17, 2013 10:34 PM
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McSwaggerty
4 posts
Oct 19, 2013
12:49 PM
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1847 & Kingley - thanks for your ideas, thoughts and advice...I will check them all out before parting with my hard earned cash....thanks again.
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1847
1219 posts
Oct 19, 2013
5:54 PM
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this is a solid state amp with
a spherodyne 533
last time billy rolled thru town he was using a tube amp
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i get a lot of request when i play my harmonica
"but i play it anyway"
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blueswannabe
316 posts
Oct 19, 2013
8:44 PM
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Check out this interview at the Shure mic. co.
They discuss the engineering of the SM57. Very interesting... sophisticated and complex engineering design. Some interesting points about the grill and frequency response and unidirectional vs. omnidirectional.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Oct 19, 2013 8:45 PM
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gene
1131 posts
Oct 20, 2013
6:49 PM
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This is interesting. "How to Give SM57 and SD545 Vocal Microphones Powerful Sound for Amplified Harmonica with Bicycle Tube"
Last Edited by gene on Oct 20, 2013 6:52 PM
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MindTheGap
20 posts
Oct 21, 2013
1:08 AM
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-blueswannabe, gene. Thank you for these videos, they both go to explain why cupping can have such a big effect on the sound. I think that the Shure R&D people would be horrified to see what we do with their finely crafted engineering.
I have tried Hakan's mod. Subjectively I like the sound less, but there is no denying it has a big effect.
I get my favourite tone by wrapping three fingers of the left hand round the 57's grill, like a tube, which is a variation on MoonCat's cup. As the Shure man says, small changes in the enclosure round the capsule can have radical effects on the response. I expect it sounds different with different hand sizes too. Difficult to do an A-B on that one.
...except, try playing in gloves and see what that does.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 21, 2013 1:35 AM
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MindTheGap
26 posts
Oct 24, 2013
1:29 PM
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SM57 vs DM-13
Thanks to stokeblues for suggesting trying an Akai DM-13. I have one now. I agree It does have a naturally big output and responds to cupping with more. But objectively I found the 57 gives a bigger increase of signal, especially at the bottom end.
Subjectively I like DM-13, especially with a smaller amp which (as Kingley has said) can be overwhelmed with too much bass.
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