CWinter
48 posts
Aug 27, 2013
11:20 AM
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Hello fellow harp cats!
I'm requesting some help from the more experienced players on the forum, but anybody's addition to the discussion is enthusiastically welcomed.
Iceman, your advice specifically will be helpful, but all advice is welcome. Adam, Jason, Greg...
Next, I apologize if this has been covered extensively before.
So, I've been working on Miles Davis and Freddie Freeloader. I've got the music book, the sheet music, and I've learned the first two choruses of Miles' solo, which comes in at 2:11, by my calculations. What a terrific piece of music to get lost in! Here's my dilemma though: Eventually I worked up the courage to record myself and man what a surprise! I mean, I knew it was gonna sound bad, but I didn't think it was gonna sound so BAD! And by bad, I don't mean Michael Jackson bad.
Learning something by Miles or probably any jazz player, requires hitting all these tones that aren't normally associated with blues. Specifically on this one, I'm talking about the Major 7th and the Second, which is C, since the song is in the key of Bb. I'm playing this on an Eb harp, so the Major 7th is a half step bend on 2 draw, and the 2nd is a full step bend on 3 draw. As a side note, Miles uses the 6th a fair amount, which is a terrific change of pace for blues harp, because it's so easy, a simple 2 blow. Maybe you guys were already incorporating a lot of 2 blow into your repertoire, but I sure wasn't.
What I'm trying to say here, is that obviously this stuff ain't easy, but I was surprised at how far off I was in getting these notes to sound just right. It made me realize that I need to concentrate on intonation, big time!
So, experienced players....what am I looking at here? A few hundred hours of concentrated focus? A few thousand hours? I don't care how much time it takes, I'm going to master this, I just want to know what it's going to take.
And of course I know, we're all different and we all learn at a different pace. I'm no genius, and I'm no slacker. Assume I'm an average paced learner.
How did you guys get your intonation straight?
Thanks!
Last Edited by CWinter on Aug 27, 2013 4:27 PM
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CWinter
50 posts
Aug 27, 2013
11:33 AM
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One more question to Iceman, or Adam, or anyone else...
When I'm learning these solos, I'm writing 'em out in terms of the interval. Under the music itself, I'm writing things like 6, 5, M7, b3, instead of 2 blow, 1 draw, 2 draw 1/2 step bend, etc.
That's what I want to do, right? That's how I want to train my mind, to think in terms of intervals, right?
Thank you for your time and knowledge!
Last Edited by CWinter on Aug 27, 2013 11:34 AM
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Pistolcat
511 posts
Aug 27, 2013
1:44 PM
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I know I'm not Iceman but why not play in first position? The major seventh will be draw three, the second draw four and sixth will be draw six. As for intonation... Can't help you there :) I'm hopelessly off muhself...
Sounds like you're having fun! Keep at it and please post your result!
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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WinslowYerxa
393 posts
Aug 27, 2013
3:31 PM
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Writing out relationships is great! The relationships between the notes stay the same, even when you play the tune in a different key, or choose a different position or type of harmonica.
Intonation on bent notes is really worth working on. Expressive bending is one thing, where the sound of the note moving up or down is what you're after. Bending to achieve specific notes in the scale is a higher stage of usage, and requires you to listen and develop better control of pitch. This will serve you well no matter what kind of music you're playing.
Learning to bend precisely may lead you back to the fundamentals of your breathing and embouchure - which even the greatest pros study for their entire careers.
So don't hesitate to wonder whether precise bending is too much effort or might take too long. The results will be well worthwhile.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Aug 27, 2013 3:32 PM
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Rick Davis
2277 posts
Aug 27, 2013
4:27 PM
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Chris, your intonation did not sound bad at the jam at Ziggies on Sunday. I thought some of your playing was the best I've heard from you. I was impressed.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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Jehosaphat
526 posts
Aug 27, 2013
4:47 PM
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Well first off think in thousands of hours probably.
How are you set up for recording?
That can make a huge difference to how you perceive yourself when you play it back.
One worse case is putting a laptop in front of your Hi Fi speakers and wailing away in the background on the harmonica as opposed to a decent set up into a soundcard
Another is if your softwear has a slight latency problem.That can realy throw off your heard pitch as it is slightly out of wack with the tune.
Recording yourself is bit of an art in itself.
All imho.
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CWinter
51 posts
Aug 27, 2013
5:19 PM
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@Rick. Thanks Rick. I appreciate that. You're a gentleman, and I always have a great time in your house.
@Jehosaphat. I'm glad you brought that up. I recorded onto the voice memo of an iPhone. Could that be part of the problem? Practically every note sounded flat or sour. But according to my tuner, I'm in tune. I also have a Zoom H4n. Perhaps a recording on that'll sound better?
@Pistolcat. I never even considered 1st Position. Hmmm. I will definitely check that out when I've got my thinking cap on. Thanks for the suggestion!!!
@WinslowYerxa. Thank you. Sometimes it really is hard to hit the right note. When you think about guys like William Clarke or any other fast player, it's amazing how they can hit perfect bends at lightning pace. I think I'm a believer now, that it's worth keeping in check at all stages of one's development. So much to keep track of on this little instrument.
Last Edited by CWinter on Aug 27, 2013 5:27 PM
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Jehosaphat
527 posts
Aug 27, 2013
5:56 PM
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Voice memo of an iphone!;0
Never used an iphone let alone tried to record anything on one though.
But it sure doesn't too good a way to record yourself especially when you are acutely listening for pitch as you are.
I'd definitely reccomend giving something else a go.
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CWinter
53 posts
Aug 27, 2013
6:14 PM
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Just tried the Zoom. Intonation was much better. Timing was still off though. Must be some faulty wiring or something...
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The Iceman
1125 posts
Aug 27, 2013
6:58 PM
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1. To create notes through bending technique does not take thousands of hours. It is actually pretty easy. The problem is that no one agrees on a simplified and accelerated technique when opened up to a general discussion - like on a forum. It seems to lead towards arguing.
However...the approach I've developed really does work in a simplified and direct manner. As stated before, all of my total beginning students learn to inhale bend all notes from holes 1 - 6 to correct pitch within one or two weeks once they get the procedure down. It is not hard at all. As a matter of fact, I've had a lot of fun getting them to play in all sorts of positions (like 11th, 3rd position MAJOR, 4th position Major) just to test my theories out. The trick is to just point them in the proper direction with the proper technique and let them go WITHOUT TELLING THEM THAT THIS IS REALLY HARD TO DO.
So, don't buy into the ITS REALLY HARD TO DO and IT TAKES THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF PRACTICE TO ACHIEVE banter. (This usually comes from guys that hunted and pecked around at it for years before getting close to nailing it. They are also usually the first to pooh pooh the fact that it can be done quickly and easily).
You can reference old posts regarding bending techniques on this list and find the hidden jewels of my simplified approach. You can also contact me off list if you get hung up on understanding. It's not that easy to type in the instructions. I'm more of a visual in person type teacher, so depending on where you live, a personal lesson or two may unlock all the secrets for you regarding bending to correct pitch.
2. Once fully steeped in mostly blues playing on the harmonica, it is a bit difficult at first to hear the intervals used by Miles, as they are not limited by the blues scale and approach. He is a master of picking one note out the air in the middle of a melodic line that sounds fresh and new, so relying on old "licks" as a base line can be a hindrance. By learning to hear the intervals that you use in your transcriptions (instead of HNA - Hole Number Arrow denoting breath direction), you will open up a whole new world of melodic understanding.
Listen to a lot of Miles - especially when he solos openly, simply and slowly. Start to improve your hearing comprehension of the intervals he uses.
You can learn almost everything you need to know about music by studying this one great artist.
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The Iceman
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Jehosaphat
528 posts
Aug 27, 2013
9:51 PM
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Iceman is the expert on this bending stuff.
I remember years ago on Harp-L his post about not"bending to the floor"
A lot of us blues players tend to bend to the bottom of the bend beyond where the actual pitch of the note we're looking for.On hole two draw especially it is very easy to go below the F two step bend into something else .A lot of players hit the crucial bends way to hard and so 'overbend'
Ok, in bar room blues it's probably getawayable(word?) but in your case not so much.
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Wendell
17 posts
Aug 28, 2013
5:00 AM
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Playing along with a keyboard or a tuner helped me
-=====-
wendell jenkins
my youtube
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Michael Rubin
786 posts
Aug 28, 2013
5:17 AM
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If an Eb is a hard harp to bend properly on, try the same second position licks on a C harp. When that is easy, try a Db harp, then a D, then an Eb. Work up to the higher pitched harp.
If you are ready to do some very advanced work:
Get a chromatic a transpose this solo into every key. Then if you can overblow or have another method to play a diatonic chromatically play it in all 12 positions. Each position will have different notes that do not require bending and will therefore instill in your mind what the pitch should sound like.
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The Iceman
1127 posts
Aug 28, 2013
5:50 AM
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1. Using an outside reference for pitch (such as keyboard or tuner) is one step removed from internalizing that pitch. I recommend getting the pitch firmly in your inner ear and then telling the harmonica to play what you "hear".
2. I'm happy that some of my early innovative approaches (like the "note room" with ceiling and The Floor) have eventually found their way into the current lexicon on learning diatonic harmonica.
RE: bending to the floor (or attempting to go through the floor) results in a note that is 24 cents below the actual pitch of that note.
3. I'm THRILLED that some of you are starting to listen to Miles Davis.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Aug 28, 2013 5:52 AM
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The Iceman
1128 posts
Aug 28, 2013
6:29 AM
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Here's an example of what I call very innovative and effective teaching:
I very rarely ask a student to learn something new in music. Instead, I find something already ingrained in the student and provide a link for him to access what he already knows.
For example, that 3 hole first inhale bend to pitch...
Most already know "That Spoon That Spoon That Spoon-ful" and what it sounds like in their inner ear (my generation learned it from Cream).
Two hole inhale = "That" and 3 hole inhale bend = "Spoon".
Student sings the line, then makes the harmonica play it. No need for outside source like keyboard or tuner.
I will also have the student own a "D" and a "Low G" harmonica.
On "Low G", I have him play hole 4 inhale and hole 5 inhale and make the harmonica play the above line.
Then I'll have him pick up the "D" harmonica and start on 2 hole inhale and make that harmonica play "Spoonful".
He can alternate between the two harmonicas until they both sound the same on "Spoonful".
Funny story about accessing what you already know. Many years ago in Detroit, I had a man from Germany come for lessons. He said "I vant to play ze bluuues".
Usually when someone is just starting out on this path, I will tell him that the shuffle feel is the same as what you feel inside when you skipped as a child. (You ain't seen nothing till you've seen my class of 20 middle aged students - at Augusta Blues Week - skipping around the classroom to re-acquaint them with the feeling).
However, this German guy told me "In Germany, as a child, boys never skipped. That was only for girls".
So, it was a struggle to teach him this new feeling that most of us already carry around in our life experience.
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The Iceman
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CWinter
55 posts
Aug 28, 2013
7:04 AM
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Thanks for all the comments and suggestions!
@Iceman,
Thanks for the great advice. One question: Do you have any recommendations for "getting the pitch firmly in your inner ear and then telling the harmonica to play what you "hear"."
I totally get what you're saying about getting the pitch in your inner ear. How, though?
Thanks!!!
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timeistight
1336 posts
Aug 28, 2013
7:37 AM
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'I will also have the student own a "D" and a "Low G" harmonica.
On "Low G", I have him play hole 4 inhale and hole 5 inhale and make the harmonica play the above line.
Then I'll have him pick up the "D" harmonica and start on 2 hole inhale and make that harmonica play "Spoonful".
He can alternate between the two harmonicas until they both sound the same on "Spoonful".'
I don't think they should sound the same. The way I've always heard it, the "spoon" note isn't single note but a gliss that rises from a slightly sharp minor third to a flat major third.
You can't get that gliss playing it on a G harp as you describe. You can gliss from a flat minor third to an in-tune minor third, but that'll put you out of tune with the singer and guitar.
Last Edited by timeistight on Aug 28, 2013 7:42 AM
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The Iceman
1129 posts
Aug 28, 2013
9:22 AM
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CWinter...gave you a spoonful example for that minor third. Another is "Follow the Yellow Brick Road" starting on 2 hole inhale. You can take this ditty and start on 1 hole exhale, 1 hole inhale, etc.
timeistight...now's not the time to nitpick. Keep it simple. The idea is not to reproduce in all its infinite glory the blues third, but merely to nail that minor third for 3 hole inhale first bend.
It's a tool.
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The Iceman
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timeistight
1338 posts
Aug 28, 2013
9:39 AM
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Okay. Sorry for nitpicking. I guess I'm a bit obsessive about intonation.
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walterharp
1159 posts
Aug 28, 2013
9:58 AM
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one thing that I think is sometimes Miles is trying to sound like a harmonica, the way he bends notes... so full circle here!
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The Iceman
1130 posts
Aug 28, 2013
11:14 AM
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walterharp..
Miles was known to have said that he was looking for the effect of the real blues with the (at the time) 75 cent blues harmonica sound in a lot of his music...which, btw, he didn't like to be called "jazz" (he said that was just another racist term for n*gger music), but rather "folk music".
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The Iceman
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The Iceman
1131 posts
Aug 28, 2013
11:18 AM
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Perfect ascending 5th? Those of my generation will remember Imperial Margarine....the sound of the crown appearing..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTX09-I1wa4
Perfect ascending 4th? The first two notes of "Taps" - military trumpet.
Perfect ascending 6th? The first two notes of the ol' NBC tv logo music.
There's lotsa examples out there. Look for something that's already in your head.
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The Iceman
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htownfess
281 posts
Aug 28, 2013
11:38 AM
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Something to take into consideration is the intonation built into your diatonic: Using an equal temperament diatonic like a Golden Melody or Lee Oskar might work better for you to practice the music you mentioned, if you are not using one already. It took me a few years to realize that in some musical situations, there were limits to how much I could compensate for or tolerate the relatively flat stock tuning of some holes on a Special 20 or Marine Band, to name a couple of models.
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CWinter
57 posts
Aug 28, 2013
8:32 PM
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@Jlnx
Pay attention and mimic carnival barkers, street vendors and the like. They very effectively hammer the basic intervals deep into the marks brain.
That's funny, dude. Thanks for the laugh....Next time I'm at my local carnival/side-show, I'll be sure and take some notes. Until then, I think I'll go with actual music tones.
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Jehosaphat
529 posts
Aug 28, 2013
10:28 PM
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@Htownfess really nailed it here.
I think we should start another thread to talk about the raw material we are actually working with when we venture out of the 'Blues' where slurs ,microtones all work, into the world of Jazz melodies where sometimes a note just HAS to be on Pitch.
Me,ithink you surely have to start on an ET harp?
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JInx
505 posts
Aug 28, 2013
10:31 PM
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CWinter, I"m serious, and you would learn a lot
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
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MichaelAndrewLo
563 posts
Aug 29, 2013
12:17 AM
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First, throw away the sheet music or tab. Music is sound.
Second, buy "transcribe" so you can slow the music down to where you can clearly hear each note.
http://www.seventhstring.com/xscribe/overview.html
Third, as you can hear the music take it in 1 bar or 2 bar sequences and SING the line. Out loud. You will be surprised at first that you can't even sing the line. Practice singing it in pitch. Along with the slowed down version. Once you can sing it clearly then go to your harmonica. It doesn't matter which position just pick a harmonica once you have the line in your head by singing it you will be able to easily figure out the line. Don't use the instrument as a crutch: if you can't sing it then you're not hearing it and thus can't play it.
Fourth, bring it up to speed GRADUALLY but play it perfectly every time. Never play it wrong. Which means always play it slow enough you can achieve this.
This is how to deliberately practice Miles or any other music effectively. It's ear training, vocal training, musicality, and technique training all in one. Hope that helps.
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Andrew Larson, R.N.
Last Edited by MichaelAndrewLo on Aug 29, 2013 12:19 AM
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The Iceman
1132 posts
Aug 29, 2013
6:16 AM
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MichaelAndrew...
Excellent. Very astute.
I tell my students "If you can't sing it, you can't play it".
Harmonica is like a genie in a bottle that says "Yes, Master". You have to tell it what to do.
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The Iceman
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Frank
2672 posts
Aug 29, 2013
7:15 AM
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If you don't play the harmonica - it will play you... focus, focus, focus - like a laser :)
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bloozefish
120 posts
Aug 29, 2013
10:59 AM
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Iceman,
I had to laugh...decades ago, when I was first learning to play congas, my (Cuban) teacher said "If you can say it, you can play it." So I went around saying "goon-dune-Bop, goon-dune-go-doe" over and over. It worked!
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CWinter
59 posts
Aug 30, 2013
1:39 PM
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Jlnx:
Ok, thanks man. I'll see if I can look something up on Youtube to see what you're talking about. That's really interesting. The stuff you can learn on this forum is great!
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JInx
511 posts
Aug 30, 2013
2:29 PM
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That's great CW! Always be listening, and keep an open mind... you'll do fine
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Sun, sun, sun
Burn, burn, burn
Soon, soon, soon
Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by JInx on Aug 30, 2013 2:29 PM
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