Littoral
981 posts
Aug 24, 2013
7:57 AM
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If anyone has a clip of it please post, and note the time sig. I haven't heard it definitively.
Who cares? It is, I think, an essential component of BW's tone and has been very nicely demonstrated recently by Nic Clarke. It's a technique question aimed at the quest for tone.
Last Edited by Littoral on Aug 24, 2013 8:57 AM
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Kingley
3032 posts
Aug 24, 2013
8:12 AM
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I don't quite understand how the fact of whether or not Jason can play tongue blocks bends is part of a quest for tone? What is it exactly that you're trying to discover about good tone?
With regards to tongue blocked bends though, I'm sure Jason can play them if he wants too. However to the best of my knowledge he lip purses single note bends. He does plays tongue block of course when he needs octaves and other splits. Jason is like any good player, he utilises whatever technique is required at any given time to create his music. I don't think that playing bent notes either tongue blocked or lip pursed affects tone as such. It's more the factors of the dropped jaw, breathing from the diaphragm, breath force and playing relaxed that affect tone.
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 24, 2013 8:13 AM
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Littoral
982 posts
Aug 24, 2013
8:54 AM
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"I don't think that playing bent notes either tongue blocked or lip pursed affects tone as such."
I disagree. I think that tongue blocking bends is the only way to get the tone as exemplified by BW and Nic Clark. That's why my post is a technique question aimed at the quest for tone.
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tmf714
1904 posts
Aug 24, 2013
9:09 AM
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3:31 -3:55
Last Edited by tmf714 on Aug 24, 2013 9:10 AM
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Kingley
3035 posts
Aug 24, 2013
9:23 AM
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"I think that tongue blocking bends is the only way to get the tone as exemplified by BW and Nic Clark"
I'd completely disagree with that. If you listen to Kim Wilson, Rick Estrin and Jerry Portnoy they all play their bends both tongue blocked and lip pursed. They can all achieve that Big Walter style tone and you can't tell any real tonal difference between the embouchures when they do it. Kim even demonstrates this over on bluesharmonica.com in his interview in the tongue blocking section. I think it's a common misconception that tongue blocking makes a big difference to tone. What tongue blocking generally does is make the player put the harp further into his/her mouth which facilitates the dropping of the jaw and creates a bigger resonant chamber. Lip pursers at least at the beginner/early intermediate stages often don't have the harp far enough back in their mouths to create a situation for good tone to occur. I know many good players who predominantly lip purse and have great tone. Then of course you have players that use u-blocking. There are some techniques that Big Walter used that can only be reproduced correctly by tongue blocking, but those are more stylistic elements not tonal elements. For instance the beginning of "Walter's Boogie" can only be played properly using tongue blocking. If you look at something like "Easy" though you could play it either way.
For what it's worth I play 99% tongue block. I block everything except blow bends. I even play overblows tongue blocked. Now my tone is nowhere near as good as Adam's or Jason's who both play predominantly lip pursed. If tongue blocking were the key to getting great tone then I'd have it in spades. I don't.
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Tuckster
1329 posts
Aug 24, 2013
9:40 AM
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IMHO,Jason's video was spot on. Also,remember BW was playing JI tuned harps. I've found that makes quite a big difference.
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Pistolcat
500 posts
Aug 24, 2013
10:11 AM
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I play easy completely tongue blocked. Not for the bends but for the slaps, pulls and pullslaps. And, most importantly, for the warbles that I combine with a kind of piston action. While I surely could play it LP, and have an easier time hitting the two and three hole bends at pitch, I find it lacking dirt and soul.
Not sure about tone though. As kingly said: it's more stylistics than tone differences.
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Pistolkatt - Pistolkatts youtube
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groyster1
2347 posts
Aug 24, 2013
11:41 AM
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thanks for posting Jason........he is absolutely brilliant.......
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Greg Heumann
2330 posts
Aug 24, 2013
11:52 AM
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We hold these truths to be self evident:
WHEREAS the fattest AMPLIFIED tone comes from fully sealing the front of the harp as well as the rear, AND
WHEREAS it is extremely difficult to block all the holes on the front if you do NOT tongue block
THEREFORE it can be said that being able to tongue block bend is an asset in getting the best AMPLIFIED tone.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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WinslowYerxa
390 posts
Aug 24, 2013
12:20 PM
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For years Jason played primarily pucker and didn't place much value on tongue blocking as a primary embouchure. In recent months in conversation, though, he's indicated that he's been re-thinking that valuation.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Aug 24, 2013 12:21 PM
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Littoral
983 posts
Aug 24, 2013
12:29 PM
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Thanks for the video, just what I wanted. He does a great job with his description and his LP tone is excellent. I had not seen him specifically play TB bends (I certainly expected that he could) and with as little difference as I can hear in his tone when directly comparing them he may do it more often than I hear elsewhere. He says he does it more in 3rd and that makes sense -I have heard that, chords especially.
I know this topic gets contentious but really understanding the differences in technique are worth the negotiation.
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JonV
3 posts
Aug 25, 2013
12:35 PM
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Regardless of the importance of the technique, time spent learning TB bending is time well spent. It will only help in developing resonance and control, even if you don't eventually TB bend exclusively.
If you want to use tongue blocking a lot in your playing (ie for more than intervals / occasional effects), then you're likely to feel much more free and comfortable when you don't have to switch to pucker in order to hit a bent note.
I also agree fully with Greg's point above.
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kudzurunner
4217 posts
Aug 25, 2013
7:32 PM
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I wonder what trumpet players talk about when they talk shop. Do contemporary trumpet players engage in a quest for Louis Armstrong's embouchure?
I wonder if John Coltrane spent a lot of time trying to replicate Ben Webster's embouchure.
I wonder if contemporary blues guitarists, in the aftermath of B. B. and Albert King, Clapton, Mike Stern, and Robben Ford, spend any time trying to master the specific bends that T. Bone Walker made. Oh wait: I did that back in the late 1970s. I spent a lot of time trying to sound like T. Bone Walker. I was a student, and that's what students do. Actually, there are some pretty good guitarists these days who try to get that old sound. That's how you know a genius: he's not the one trying to copy the sound. He's the one creating the sound that others try to copy. T. Bone Walker and B. B. King are the geniuses.
There are many kinds of great tone. It's a mistake to reduce great tone to one technique. Somebody's always coming along and proving you wrong.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 25, 2013 7:36 PM
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harpdude61
1785 posts
Aug 25, 2013
8:48 PM
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Yes! Both are great. If you can do both, then AWESOME! Like Jason said, both have advantages. My goal is to get better at side TBing. It has techniques I can't do LBing. It is fantastic! We should all learn it!
That said, as a lip blocker of 7 years, I would LOVE to sit down with any TBer and compare tone. This thread is about tone.
I'm gonna disagree with my biggest influence and harmonica hero. Love dat Mooncat! He mentioned bending with the tongue if you lip purse and bending with the throat if you tongue block. He has said to the contrary since this video was made. I lip block everything except splits and bend with the throat. I feel like my bends are precise and clean with good vibrato if needed. I am told often I have "big tone". I drop the jaw, let my tongue fall out of the way, and bend with the throat while lip blocking. Notice how the harp was tilted up and deep in his mouth. He is lip blocking. To me the harp looked just as deep with both examples. My upper lip actually hangs down over the front opening of my GMs just a bit. Again, love to compare how deep the harp is in with a TBer.
I'll tell you why some try lip purse or pucker and can't get good tone. They do it wrong. The Pucker term is so far from how it is. If you start out with the kissy shape mouth and a level harmonica then welcome to thin tone world.
I have two students that can't play Twinkle Twinkle, but have killer tone on two hole draw and can bend cleanly. I start with tone and put tone above everything. I teach the lip blocking method.
I tell them to sit up and imagine what it feels like if you are so relaxed that you are falling asleep in your chair. When your dishrag limp jaw falls open that's when the harp goes in. Tilt it up so the the imaginary line thru the center of the hole is aimed at the center of the throat. Direct, inline pull is most efficient. Deep! Your upper lip will be hanging over the front. Now, imagine your mouth as big and open as a baseball and your throat as big an open as a golf ball yet both totally relaxed. Let that limp tongue fall down and out of the way. Now do a two hole draw just by initiating the "kuh" sound from as far back in your throat as possible with everything else still totally relaxed. Both students looked shock when they heard there tone. They also said it made it much easier for them to isolate that single hole.
I would even go as far to say that with proper lip blocking technique you may have an even bigger resonance chamber than a TBer because your limp tongue is down out of the way more.
Kudzu..I know of no other instrument that can stir so much debate among it's players. With so many different techniques available plus variables within those techniques, the possibilities are endless.
That is why, IMHO, it is easier to pick out who a top harp player is just by listening than it would be a guitarist. Because of all the variables any harp player at any level has a unique voice.
Maybe we can work up a challenge at HCH. LBers may get there butt kicked on fat tone but I feel pretty confident about what I hear from others as well as my own sound.
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harpdude61
1786 posts
Aug 25, 2013
9:01 PM
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Greg..It is no problem to cover 5 or 6 holes while lip blocking. You can block the other holes with your thumb or push the harp in deeper and let the loose flabby jaws of the big open mouth cover the remaining holes.
Getting the seal you often describe takes work for a lip blocker, but is quite possible. I will say it is much easier for me with one of your 57s than it is one of the older big heavy green bullets.
Still for sake of the techniques debated here a non-amplified tone comparison would be in order.
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Aug 25, 2013 9:07 PM
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Greg Heumann
2334 posts
Aug 25, 2013
9:18 PM
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@harpdude - thank you for that info. I've never known anybody that could do that with lp but as long you can do it, it proves that it can be done and it neutralizes my rather specific argument, and I retreat to something more like Adam's - which is that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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***************************************************
/Greg
BlowsMeAway Productions
See my Customer Mics album on Facebook
BlueState - my band
Bluestate on iTunes
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Jehosaphat
524 posts
Aug 25, 2013
10:07 PM
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Have to say that as a mainly lip purser i can swallow holes 1 to 5 and play any one of the holes cleanly without moving my mouth o the harp.
I think it is possible because i'm a throat bender?
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Kingley
3053 posts
Aug 25, 2013
11:55 PM
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I think people get way too hung up on the embouchure thing. All of them are useful and all have their pros and cons. The best thing is to learn them all. It's just like the mic cupping thing. The method that Greg talks about is very good for getting a fat sound. However if that's all anyone plays all night, it get very boring very quickly. A player needs to learn how to do all the different cupping techniques. So they can utilise the benefits of each at any point they require them during their music. That makes for a far more interesting sound than just tight cupping the thing all night.The same applies to embouchure. When it comes to embouchures, cupping and playing music in general, variety is the essential key to keeping it interesting for everyone involved.
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Kingley
3054 posts
Aug 25, 2013
11:55 PM
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I think people get way too hung up on the embouchure thing. All of them are useful and all have their pros and cons. The best thing is to learn them all. It's just like the mic cupping thing. The method that Greg talks about is very good for getting a fat sound. However if that's all anyone plays all night, it get very boring very quickly. A player needs to learn how to do all the different cupping techniques. So they can utilise the benefits of each at any point they require them during their music. That makes for a far more interesting sound than just tight cupping the thing all night.The same applies to embouchure. When it comes to embouchures, cupping and playing music in general, variety is the essential key to keeping it interesting for everyone involved.
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harpdude61
1787 posts
Aug 26, 2013
2:37 AM
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Jehosaphat! Thank you! You sound like a throat bender.
Kingley..No one would argue what you say. I for one dream of a day when I can do every technique that can be done on the harmonica.
The OP talks about the quest for tone. I just have to chime in when, as many times before, someone states that TB tone is deeper, richer, fuller, bigger than LB tone. I've always been one to know that actions speak louder than words. Hopefully some of us will have a chance to meet up to compare and learn from each other some day.
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harpdude61
1788 posts
Aug 26, 2013
2:53 AM
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In response to JonV. I can tell you right off that switching from lip blocking a single note or double stop into a TB octave is quick easy and just as efficient as TBing it all.
Listen to what I am about to say because I'm not sure it has ever been mentioned this way.
If you are playing 4 draw single note TBed with your tongue side blocking holes 2 and 3...you need more movement to go to a 3/6 blow octave than a lip blocker does doing the same thing. Why you ask...If I'm lip blocking 4 draw I am centered over hole four. When I switch to the 3/6 blow, I am centered over the post between holes 4 and 5. So I have to only move 1/2 of a hole and let my tongue fall into place.
A TBer has to move his tongue from holes 2/3 all the way up to holes 4/5 and and change his mouth position to get the 3/6 blow instead of the single note.
Very little has been discussed about the ergonomics of single note LBing switching to octaves. Actually pretty easy IMHO.
Last Edited by harpdude61 on Aug 26, 2013 2:56 AM
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JonV
5 posts
Aug 26, 2013
3:30 AM
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Once you have decided you like / want to do the tongue block blues thing (ie syncopated playing, frequent slaps / pulls, quickly alternating from single notes to intervals), it makes no sense to me for it to not be part of your arsenal of technique. There are some lines and styles of playing within this 'school' of playing which are just not possible when needing to switch to pucker to hit a bend.
Of course there are other, valid, approaches to blues that do not depend so much on this approach. Paul Butterfield, Adam, Jason Ricci, Tom Ball, Pat Ramsey etc etc are proof of that. If your desired sound more closely matches that, then TB bending would become less important.
Like many, I started playing all puckered, then added the tongue for intervals / effects and then later tongue blocked just hole 4 and above (and no bends). I resisted for a long time trying to TB more than that as it felt so awkward and restrictive. Now that I TB all but blowbends, having to switch to pucker just to play bends would be like playing with a hand tied behind my back. My TB and pucker tone are not fundamentally different (probably difficult to distinguish between when played out of context) but it makes more things possible and for playing to generally feel more enjoyable and relaxed.
I see this as a parallel: though I can play overbends reasonably, I am not comfortable enough to use those notes unthinkingly when I perform. I don't however see it as an unnecessary technique wouldn't discourage others from learning it. If I took the effort to be more proficient at it and then used it appropriately and tastefully in performances, it could only improve my playing. Most techniques on harmonica are useful in some way, it's just a case of prioritising the order of things you learn in order to develop your desired sound.
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JonV
6 posts
Aug 26, 2013
3:43 AM
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@harpdude61: "If you are playing 4 draw single note TBed with your tongue side blocking holes 2 and 3...you need more movement to go to a 3/6 blow octave than a lip blocker does doing the same thing. Why you ask...If I'm lip blocking 4 draw I am centered over hole four. When I switch to the 3/6 blow, I am centered over the post between holes 4 and 5. So I have to only move 1/2 of a hole and let my tongue fall into place."
Good point - I do this too. Being able to play a bend tongue blocked doesn't prevent you doing this.
For me it comes down to this: It's better to switch between pucker and tongue block because you want to, not because you need to.
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MN
267 posts
Aug 26, 2013
3:55 AM
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I found that learning to bend while TBing improved my overall tone, no matter which embouchure I'm playing with at the time. That same way, learning to overblow improved my overall tone.
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harpdude61
1789 posts
Aug 26, 2013
4:11 AM
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Jon..you are missing my point. I don't deny the usefulness of TBing. I'm just saying that going to splits from a lip blocked note is just as easy or easier depending on the interval. My example explains itself.
Right on MN...over bending has improved my tone and technique. I'm working on side TBing because it ROCKS.
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ridge
455 posts
Aug 26, 2013
4:54 AM
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After spending the first 10 of my now 17 years of harpin' doing only lip purse I can safely say that one would be short changing themselves by not learning to at least tongue block single notes (unbent) and chords (octaves). It adds color and variety to ones playing; it changed my playing considerably once I started.
As Greg Huemann points out, tongue blocking sets a persons mouth up for creating (what many would consider to be) a more desirable amplified tone. Notice how I'm dancing around using words like "better" or "best". This has translated back into having a more desirable amplified tone when lip pursing too, but it's not quite the same.
A song that really inspired me to learn TB better is "Lowdown" by Kim Wilson:
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Frank
2648 posts
Aug 26, 2013
5:21 AM
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The OP talks about the quest for tone. I just have to chime in when, as many times before, someone states that TB tone is deeper, richer, fuller, bigger than LB tone. I've always been one to know that actions speak louder than words. Hopefully some of us will have a chance to meet up to compare and learn from each other some day.
Duane - Aren't there any Players who are TBers to compare notes with where you live? If not, we can compare notes here I suppose...
Get a backtrack that you like, post the track here and LBers and TBers can use it to show their tone.
Put your version up LBing to it and other LBers who would like to show their tone can play to it and post their product. And TBers can put their style to the backtrack and post...
Then we can begin a discussion on what we hear etc :)
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 26, 2013 5:28 AM
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Kingley
3059 posts
Aug 26, 2013
6:07 AM
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"There are many kinds of great tone. It's a mistake to reduce great tone to one technique. Somebody's always coming along and proving you wrong."
Kudzurunner - Yes indeed! I agree with you on that completely.
I can't see why people obsess over embouchure. Just learn them all and then you can use whatever feels right at any particular time. Surely making good music is much more important. When I listen to a harp player the last thing on my mind is what embouchure he or she is using or how fat their tone is. What interests me is how they approach a song musically. Not can they play with Big Walter style tone or do a note for note rendition of Juke. I want to hear them play, not an imitation of a someone else. Now don't get me wrong I can and do enjoy the note for note imitators and they have a rightful place in the music. They just aren't usually as exciting as listening to someone who knows how to play, doing "their" own thing. Whether that is played tongue blocked or lip pursed is immaterial.
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 26, 2013 6:09 AM
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tmf714
1905 posts
Aug 26, 2013
6:12 AM
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OP and bottom line-you can't get Big Walters and Nic Clark's tone without tongue blocking.
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Kingley
3060 posts
Aug 26, 2013
6:23 AM
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That's complete and utter nonsense. A lip purser can achieve the depth of tone of players like Big Walter or Nic Clark. What they can't do is get some of the inflections that are present due to the techniques of tongue blocking. Those have got nothing to do with basic tone. They are embellishments that are technique based and are therefore stylistic effects not tonal effects. I believe that you're confusing tone and technique. Which is a common mistake. If you listen to Kim Wilson talk on the subject and demonstrate the two embouchures, he says that it's hard to tell them apart. he states that to him the tongue blocking version produces more "pop", but that it's so close it's almost indistinguishable. I agree with Kim's analysis.
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 26, 2013 6:53 AM
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Frank
2650 posts
Aug 26, 2013
6:56 AM
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If Duane puts up a backtrack for us to improvise to - personally I would put up a version played LB...a version played TB...and a version played using a mixture. Then I would put up versions using different positions...then a version using Chrome...This would give the listener a chance to compare notes :)
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harpdude61
1790 posts
Aug 26, 2013
7:41 AM
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Like I said before Kingley..I agree ...learn it all.
I'm trying. My splits TB are fine. I just need quite a bit more work on side TBing while bending.
tmf714 has the bottom line..he is the smartest individual on the forum as always, so we probably should believe him.
No response to my switching from LB to TB splits? My example takes less movement/change than going TB single note to TB octave.
Ridge is a great player..and again, the debate is not whether or not we should learn them both and what we would gain from it. That has been said several times in this thread already. Agreed! But, just because you or anyone else switched to TBing and your tone got better only means your were not lip blocking in the most effecient way possible. TBing made you a better player, with a bigger arsenal, and bigger tone. Way cool! I hope it does that for me.
Still, I'm with Kingley. Great tone from a lip blocker is all about learning the proper technique.
Frank, I appreciate what you are trying to do. My webcam is 10 years old and a cheapo. Maybe I can come up with something. I don't know. I do know that if I put something up that had the fattest tone ever, I doubt anyone would say "ahh harpdude proved me wrong". The quotes might say "pretty good but not like Kim W."..duh
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groyster1
2351 posts
Aug 26, 2013
7:57 AM
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listening to rev dan smith and deford bailey,I don't see how they could get their sound without tb...they make it sound like there are 2 harp players while there is only one
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Frank
2652 posts
Aug 26, 2013
7:58 AM
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No need for videos - just record audio and keep the BT track under 2 min :)
The examples of each others tone using the same backtrack to improvise- would not be used as proof someone is right or wrong...but strictly for analysis!
Say you put up a post of your playing to the BT and someone listening thinks that what you did tonewise at 50 secs into the song was extra cool and wanted to know more about your approach and such...you could break it down for them.
So the entries would be used for educational purposes only...as well as fun and recreation!
Maybe even Adam G. and Jason R. would submit their work and ideals to the BT?
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 26, 2013 8:02 AM
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chromaticblues
1444 posts
Aug 26, 2013
8:16 AM
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I believe way to many harp players make the mistake of trying to play with a big fat tone to the point where It sounds like shit! They sound soooo low fi it's not even good! People think cranking the bass up on your bassman with your bullet mic sounds so cool!People are going over board with this Tone stuff!
Someone had a thread a while ago about tone verses cut. There has to be a balance between the two.
I for one hate the sound of what I call "honk harmonica". It's all low midrange with roll off on the bass and no high end.
Just like TB and lip pursing. For all the people that are 100% of one or the other are just kidding themselves thinking their way is the best! There are things that are either easier to do one way or the other or just sound better one way or the other!
Now it does make a difference if you are trying to play Blues cover songs and your trying to sound just like the recording. That is difficult because you have to use the same techniques they used to get all the nuances.
Aside from that I don't care about what Jason Ricci or Kim Wilson does.
Just practice playing and use your ears to be your own judge. Ofcourse if people say you suck and throw things at you then you may want a second opinion!
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Kingley
3062 posts
Aug 26, 2013
8:18 AM
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A nice idea frank. In reality though most people would be mistaking tone for technique again. The only way to really test the theory of the effect of embouchure on tone would be to have a person who is equally comfortable in each embouchure, play a single note riff with no stylistic elements involved (no tongue slaps or pulls, no vibrato, no hand techniques, etc). When you do that you'll find there isn't a discernable difference between the two. See the problem is that people often confuse tongue pulls and slaps and such like as tone. When there aren't. They are simply stylistic elements used to embellish tone.
I do like your basic idea though and it would certainly make for a useful resource for people to learn things from.
Last Edited by Kingley on Aug 26, 2013 8:21 AM
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kudzurunner
4218 posts
Aug 26, 2013
9:00 AM
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At at the risk of beating a dead horse, repeating things I've said many times before, etc.: IMHOP, there's far too much emphasis here on "big tone" as the be-all and end-all of harmonica study and harmonica playing. Obviously it's a good thing when a player has command of the instrument. The ability to produce a certain kind of big tone exemplified by Big Walter Horton and Nic Clark is one element, potentially, of excellent playing. But it's only one element, and there are many other elements, many of them just as important.
Small tone, for example. Thin, piercing tone. Master either of those things along with "big tone" and you've begun to develop effective dynamic range. Carey Bell and Little Walter both deploy breathy small tone in an effective way, and Sonny Boy (Rice Miller) is a great player to listen to if you want to develop the full tonal range, from big tone (Help Me) to thin piercing tone (any of his F-harp recordings on Trumpet, such as "Nine Below Zero.")
Paul Butterfield is mostly a lip purser. He's got a pretty big tone--although not nearly as big as Big Walter--and he's got a great small/thin tone (on the acoustic portions of the live "Driftin Blues"). Study his stuff and you'll be much less inclined to say "My God! Nic Clark is the stuff!" I love what Nic does, and I enjoy his tone, along with his very interesting ideas about how to use tongue-feathering to create tension. I just think that some of the attention he gets here betrays a misplaced and potentially damaging (to him) overemphasis on this one element of blues harmonica playing.
If I didn't know better, I'd conclude that harp players are terribly anxious about how small and puny their instrument is and desperately try to compensate for that perceived shortcoming by fanning the Big Tone fires whenever they get a chance.
I listen to a wide range of instrumentalists, not just harp players, and the concept "big tone" isn't something they overemphasize. It's important to know the full range of your instrument's capacities. And it's important to develop a nuanced vocabulary that helps you hear, and value, a range of qualities that good harp players develop.
I happen to really like the gentle, playful, fine-grained, breathy sound that Carey Bell gets on "Big Walter Strut." I think a lot of players here, including those who spend a fair bit of time debating Big Tone, could learn useful things from it:
http://www.amazon.com/Big-Walter-Strut-Instrumental/dp/B000S320XO
It's called Big Walter Strut, BTW, because one of the things Big Walter was a master of was Small Tone. A feathered 45 draw held for a bar or two, for example.
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 26, 2013 9:06 AM
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chromaticblues
1445 posts
Aug 26, 2013
9:05 AM
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@ Frank yeah your on the right track there with what everyone is calling tone. Tone is the result of your techniques! It's really something that just getts better with time/practice/playing.
I also think your right about thinking of Tone as a technique! I purposely do not play with the fatest tone I can all the time. Where can you go from there?
Not everything requires fat tone.
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Rick Davis
2264 posts
Aug 26, 2013
9:12 AM
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Nic Clark is 17 years old, and I don't think his journey on blues harp is finished yet.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
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tmf714
1906 posts
Aug 26, 2013
9:24 AM
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"That's complete and utter nonsense. A lip purser can achieve the depth of tone of players like Big Walter or Nic Clark"
2 words-POST IT.
I have seen Kim many times live--I know when he is lipping and when he is blocking. It'sjust that he is so good at it,it 's hard for mere mortals to tell the difference.
The same holds true for Big Walter-but 90% of the time Kim,Nic and BW are tongue blocking-that's what the OP is about.
I am with Frank-put up or shut up.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Aug 26, 2013 9:29 AM
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Kingley
3063 posts
Aug 26, 2013
10:10 AM
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tmf714 - I'm not going to satisfy your apparently perpetual need to argue with people on this forum ad infinitum. As I've already stated I'm a tongue blocker, but I'm not not naive enough, or egotistical enough to think that tongue blocking is the only answer to great tone. If you don't believe it's true then fine, thats your perogative. Personally I feel differently, because I've heard it with my own ears. As for the clip of Kim demonstrating both embouchures I can't post it here because I don't own the rights to it. If you want to hear it you'll have to go and sign up to bluesharmonica.com.
I'm in agreement with Adam when it comes to tone. Big and fat ain't the only game in town and it gets real old, real quick. Learning all of the tonal variations and embouchures they can will make anyone a better more rounded player. These are my final words on this thread.
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Frank
2654 posts
Aug 26, 2013
10:49 AM
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I certainly 2nd the motion that TONE comes in a perpetual spectrum of colors, sizes and degrees...
It is a journey discovering the acute benefits of acquiring the different tonal techniques available to execute tones many faces...
And as Adam and others have pointed out - most serious students/ players are attracted to the styles of many different Masters of the harmonica precisely because of their unique way they are able to present notes that sound incredible whether their tone is played thin,thick or everywhere in between.
Oh, and as far as Jason bending notes - his abilities are limitless - he can bend them using his teeth...I swear to God, I ain't lyin :)
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 26, 2013 11:12 AM
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Harpaholic
336 posts
Aug 26, 2013
11:12 AM
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It's ignorant (uninformed) to think that a LP'er can't acheive the same tone as a TB'er!
If you have good tone, it doesn't matter what embuchure your using, you will still have good tone!
If you don't beleive it, then you probably don't have good tone to start with.
IMO, TB'ing sounds better for the blues, because it gives you so much more to work with.
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Aug 26, 2013 11:49 AM
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Rick Davis
2266 posts
Aug 26, 2013
11:18 AM
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At the jam last night I told Nic about this thread and he immediately stuck an A harp in his mouth and played a couple minutes of TB bends and LP bends. They both sounded awesome.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Aug 26, 2013 11:19 AM
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harpdude61
1791 posts
Aug 26, 2013
11:20 AM
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I agree with everything Adam said. I play very few songs that I'm about the "Old Chicago Fatty Tone". I use my SM 57 thru an HG 50 with the Sonic petal. No fat Chicago there. Still he didn't really comment on my point and belief. Let me rephrase.
Any type of tone..thin, fat, medium, acoustic, tinny, breathy, plugged to an amp, with a stick, with a bullet, with a coffe cup,etc..etc....can be played with an equal level of the highest quality by lip blocking or tongue blocking.
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Frank
2655 posts
Aug 26, 2013
11:36 AM
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Harpaholic you might appreciate these quotes?
“Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn.”
? Benjamin Franklin
“Our wretched species is so made that those who walk on the well-trodden path always throw stones at those who are showing a new road.”
? Voltaire,
“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but usually manages to pick himself up, walk over or around it, and carry on.”
? Benjamin Franklin
“Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.”
? Martin Luther King Jr.
“Confidence is ignorance. If you're feeling cocky, it's because there's something you don't know.”
? Eoin Colfer
“... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.”
? Neil deGrasse Tyson
“There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the latter ignorance.”
? Hippocrates
“Ignorance is a lot like alcohol: the more you have of it, the less you are able to see its effect on you.”
? Jay M. Bylsma
“Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.? Douglas Adams
“Point me out the happy man and I will point you out either extreme egotism, selfishness, evil -- or else an absolute ignorance.”
? Graham Greene
Graham seems a little depressed don't you think :(
Last Edited by Frank on Aug 26, 2013 11:40 AM
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kudzurunner
4219 posts
Aug 26, 2013
11:43 AM
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Rick, do you think that some of this Big Tone "thing" is driven by boutique amp manufacturers for whom Big Tone (and I'm capitalizing it to emphasize the way in which it's been hardened into an idea) is a major selling point?
Do you think it's possible that if Nic is surrounded by folks who push amps at him and say "Give us the Big Tone, Nic!", he might be responding to what he believes the social environment is rewarding? Just a thought.
In any case, I'm cheered by your claim that Nic's journey on harp isn't over yet. I certainly hope it isn't! Next time you speak to him, please tell him that the Thin, Keening Tone guys over at MBH are eager what he can do when he puts the mic and amp aside and plays soft and slow.
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Frank
2656 posts
Aug 26, 2013
11:48 AM
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Good luck finding your way home - need a flashlight :)
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Harpaholic
339 posts
Aug 26, 2013
11:50 AM
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Frank, you lost me at
"Harpaholic you might appreciate these quotes?"
Besides being insecure, I'm ADHD
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Rick Davis
2267 posts
Aug 26, 2013
12:13 PM
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Adam, you're kidding, right? You have it exactly backwards: Amp builders (and just about any commercial enterprise) respond to consumer taste when designing their products, not the other way 'round. Don't they teach Econ at Ole Miss?
You are welcome to ask Nic these questions yourself if you like. He is on Facebook.
As far as people influencing Nic to play the way he does... well, maybe Gary Primich or William Clarke have done that posthumously. He took lots of lessons from Ronnie Shellist. Maybe you can blame him.
I've known Nic for about 4 years and I have never heard him criticize any other player for his tone or style or ability. I doubt he cares if you are thin and keening or not. I think he will find something he likes about everybody's playing. But as I said, you can ask him your questions yourself. I certainly do not speak for him.
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-Little Rick Davis
The Blues Harp Amps Blog
The Mile High Blues Society
Tip Jar
Last Edited by Rick Davis on Aug 26, 2013 12:26 PM
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