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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Chromatic- Valved vs. Half Valved BENDS
Chromatic- Valved vs. Half Valved BENDS
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SoulHarp
24 posts
Jul 26, 2013
4:52 PM
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Hello friends-
I need some info. I've been playing Half valved Diatonics for a while, I play everything on it blues, blue grass, reggae , etc. I love them.
Recently Bebop ,tuning Chromatics have answered all my phrasing problems.
I want to know if anyone has experience with Valved and Half Valved Chromatics.
I can get strong sounding semitones comfortably on a Valved Chromatics and almost get up to 1 and a 1/2 done (weak).
I have been a BIG fan of Brendon Powers (which I hope he can chime in on this) and just found out he sells Half valved Chromatics, is this the same reed interaction as a Half-Valved Diatonics.
Out of Half Valved and Fully valved chromatics which one has the same interaction as a Half Valved Diatonics.
I have many more questions but the main one is
What is the difference in the bending range and reed set-up in Half Valved vs a Fully valved Chromatic ?
Thank you in Advanced
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WinslowYerxa
377 posts
Jul 26, 2013
7:55 PM
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A fully valved chromatic has no hard limit on bending range. Depending on how the reed is set up, I can get anywhere between 1 and 5 semitones of bend out of isolated reeds - reeds that cannot involve the "other" reed because a valve shuts of the air supply to that "other" reed.
(When you play a bow note, the "other" reed is the draw note in the same hole; when you play a draw note, the blow reed is the "other" reed.)
An unvalved chroamtic will be too leaky to play. A half-valved chromatic will be leakier than a fully valved one, all other airtightness issues being equal.
Standard solo tuning on a chromatic is exacly like Holes 4-7 on a diatonic, just repeated over however many holes the chromatic has. So a half-valved chromatic will have the same bends.
Holes 1 and 3 will have draw notes that bend down a semitone, while Hole 2 qill ben a quarter tone with support from the blow reed, which acts like an enabler reed. Those bends will have that same vibrant, gutsy sound as diatonic draw bends.
The blow reeds will bend like regular valved chromatic reeds, because that's what they are.
Hole 4 has Draw B and Blow C. On a standard diatonic, the C will bend about a quarter tone.Most players avoid this sound, so half-valving may not be of much interest. The draw reed, B, doesn't have an enabler reed, so half-valving it will make it unbendable - best to leave the valve in place or isolated reed bends.
However, Brendan has gone a step beyond half-valving a chromatic. He's taken a chromatic and instead of having, say, one bank of reeds in C and another in C#, he co-opts the C# bank of reeds to create enabler reeds so that ALL the notes of the C scale bend down a semitone like diatonic bends.
In essence, this harp, which he calls the Chromabender, is more like a big all-bending diatonic, but with more notes per octave - and probably a raft of possible alternate tunings, knowing Brendan.
You can see a series of Youtube videos he's made about the Chromabender starting with this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5hxAgfC2xQ
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jul 30, 2013 4:14 PM
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SoulHarp
25 posts
Jul 26, 2013
8:06 PM
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Winslow- Thank you !!!!
On my 64x I can bend a lot of holes 2-3 semitones. Yet on my CX-12 and chromaticas the range is much smaller.
How would I go about learning to set up a full valve chromatic to bend to its fullest ?
Any info would help ,from the the little info I found it didn't sound like setting up a regular diatonic !!
Last Edited by SoulHarp on Jul 26, 2013 8:13 PM
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WinslowYerxa
379 posts
Jul 26, 2013
9:30 PM
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Airthightness helps - mouthpiece/slide, reedplates/comb. embossing.
Try taking a diatonic reedplate (blow or daw plate, doesn't matter which) and hold it vertically, with the reeds facing away from your face, and look in a mirror.
Now apply your mouth to the reedplate and play the reed for Hole 1 or 2.
Wathc the range of motion (amplitude) as the reed vibrates. Also note how far away from the plate it appears to be.
Now bend the note down, slowly.
As the pitch goes down, note two things:
-- The amplitude of the vibration decreases
-- The reed gets closer and closer to the plate.
At the point where the note chokes out, you'll notice that the reed no longer springs back above the surface of the plate - it's trapped in the slot.
The corollary is that the higher a reed is gapped, the farther you can bend it down before it chokes out. Of course this also means that it takes more air to play. So getting the gapping just right for decent response and desired bending can take some work.
Perhaps the reed gurus on the list can give more dialed-in advice.
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Winslow
Last Edited by WinslowYerxa on Jul 26, 2013 9:31 PM
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SoulHarp
26 posts
Jul 30, 2013
3:53 PM
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So what are the advantages of playing half valved chromatic over fully valved ?!?
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WinslowYerxa
381 posts
Jul 30, 2013
4:12 PM
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The sound of a dual reed bend (like the draw notes on a half-valved chromatic) has more complexity than an isolated reed bend - sounds more alive, perhaps. Also, the bend is easier to sustain, as the dual reed interaction seems to give it stability.
For diatonic players, the familiar feel and sound of half-valved bends seems to be a major attraction, despite the limits they place on bending range.
I half-valved just one of my chromatics, a whole-tone tuned 10-holer that I built because I had a student who was plyaing that tuning. I decided to half valve it on a whim. I found that it was a bit leakier than my regular chromatics, but the dual-reed bends really smoke and wail!
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Winslow
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GMaj7
256 posts
Jul 30, 2013
4:50 PM
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Here's a tip for those that want to give half-valving chroms a shot.
This will work on 270s, Seydels, etc, but is a little trickier on the cross-tuned 64s and CX12s.
Pop the top cover off and start at the high end removing one (1) windsaver from the top side. Leave the bottom one on. Play it if a bit and see what you think. You can compare the difference with the slide out vs. the slide in which will be 1/2 step higher but still give you an idea about how much leakier the harp is with the windsaver removed.
Just proceed down the harp on the top removing 1 wind saver at a time per slot/hole. You might find that as you get to hole 5 or so that the harp is just too leaky for your liking. Doing it this way always means your just 1 valve away from getting back to the spot that was ideal.
I probably didn't articulate this well enough but we have the experts on this in Windslow, Gnarly, BP, and PT on the forum and they can weigh in.
Also note that on solo tuning, going half-valved on holes 4 and 8 is pointless since there is really only 1/2 step difference. If you still want to then you actually have to remove the inside wind saver on these holes....since the draw note is lower.
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Greg Jones
16:23 Custom Harmonicas
greg@1623customharmonicas.com
1623customharmonicas.com
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Gnarly
649 posts
Jul 30, 2013
6:12 PM
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@Greg Our mutual friend lives in San Diego, and I have been advising him.
I told him pretty much what you said!
@Winslow, thanks as always for your clear and informative posts.
See you both at SPAH.
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SoulHarp
27 posts
Jul 30, 2013
6:52 PM
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@Greg- Gary set up for me to do just that.
I'm much more interested in the full valved been that my bending range is wider.
Fascinating the amount of variety we have with setting up a harmonica.
Thank you every one , I really appreciate the guidance and knowledge.
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chromaticblues
1428 posts
Jul 31, 2013
3:39 AM
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@SoulHarp
To answer your question about the advantages of playing half valved over full valved.
First you have to remember what Winslow said there is one draw back. That being the harp will be more leaky!
That's not really an issue for someone that know's how to do this, but someone that hasn't done it before and doesn't know how to set the reeds. This is exactly what will happen! You'll notice it more on the lower notes being harder to play.
OK back to answering your question. Yes there are real advantages to setting up a harp this way.
The first being what is the biggest pain about playing chromatics? For me it is the windsavers rattling and sticking. I hate to hear the windsavers through a mic. Well 90% of the time the valves that become a problem are over the blow reeds. That is because you are blowing moist hot air through your harp and it starts to condensate quickly once out of your mouth and into a much cooler metal object (your harp). When you draw air through the harp this doesn't happen. The reason this matters is because when half valving you remove most of the blow valves which are most prone to fail. So you are making your harp more durable just by taking parts off (well it's not quit that easy because you still have to set the reeds)!
And to explain a little more clearly about what Greg Jones was pointing out. When removing the valves you remove all the valves on the outside of the harp except holes 4 and 8. On the holes you remove the valves inside the harp. Now this is for Chroms that have all the C scale notes on the top reedplate and all the C# notes on the bottom reedplate. That's easy to figure out if your harp is like that or not. Look in the moupiece of your Chrom and with the botton in the out position all the holes in the slider are opened up to the top reedplate. Then you push the botton in and they are now all opened to the bottom reedplate. Not all harps are like this!!!!
Some Chroms alternate from one hole to the next.
Whew! OK the reason that most people half valve is because half the bends on the harp will sound more diatonic like and the rest of the harp will be the same as it was.
Last Edited by chromaticblues on Jul 31, 2013 3:49 AM
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