SuperBee
1253 posts
Jun 27, 2013
2:22 PM
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Scenario: 12 bar blues, standard changes, song comes to instrumental section. Bass goes to IV chord in 3rd measure. What should rhythm guitarist do? What should soloist do? Will the bassman realise his error, will he play 12 bars, or only 10? Will he do it again?
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JellyShakersTipJar
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KingoBad
1331 posts
Jun 27, 2013
2:49 PM
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Is he staring at the hot girl in the front row, or is he looking at you guys?
I'd hold up a finger when you should head back to the 1 - provided he is now paying attention. If you have to hold up five fingers to show him you are changing to the five...I'd.go ahead and slap him with it...
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Danny
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SuperBee
1254 posts
Jun 27, 2013
5:47 PM
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Do you think the guitarist should follow the bass or stay with the original plan?
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JellyShakersTipJar
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shadoe42
267 posts
Jun 27, 2013
5:56 PM
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Wonder if the bass player either lost count or was trying to do a "quick four" change?
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Dr. Rev. Mr. Cheeks Miller
My Electronic Music World
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The Iceman
963 posts
Jun 27, 2013
6:13 PM
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If it's his band, follow him. Otherwise, stick to the changes, imo.
Had an interesting experience once w/my top 40 band. Guitarist lost 1/2 measure somewhere along the line and was ahead of everything by 2 beats. He was oblivious and just kept going, as did the band.
Result was the coolest slightly "out" sounding top 40 tune I ever heard.
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The Iceman
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timeistight
1278 posts
Jun 27, 2013
6:29 PM
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I agree with KingoBad: someone (probably the rhythm guitar) should take charge and signal the changes to the rest of the band until everyone's back in sync. it doesn't really matter whether you wind up with an 11- or 13-bar chorus, as long as you all do it together.
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Cole
29 posts
Jun 27, 2013
6:42 PM
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As a bassplayer for many years I usually watched and anticipated the guitar player's hands for that fast IV change. A lot of times I would ask before we started the song.
The seasoned players would usually say "watch me for the changes". Bass boo-boo's seem to stick out more it seems. It's a matter of being aware, awake and paying attention. Listen for walk ups to next chord, adding the 7th to a chord at the end of a phrase.
Hand signals are good...
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Cole Stevens
www.colestevens.net
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KingoBad
1332 posts
Jun 27, 2013
7:18 PM
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I am quite often playing rhythm guitar, harmonica and singing. I play with a great standup bass player on occasion who normally plays bluegrass and will occasionally get caught in the changes. I plow ahead to maintain the groove and correct spot. If I can, I'll try to turn to let him see my hands. I can't just drop a lyric to get in sync with him. Sometimes you just have to get to the turnaround and put a lot of emphasis on it so he can restart.
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Danny
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Jim Rumbaugh
875 posts
Jun 27, 2013
7:41 PM
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More details are needed for better answers. For example, the bass jumping ahead will have more affect on a duo or trio than a quartet or larger group.
How strong are the other members? Is the bass player an idiot that does not listen, or is does he have ears and can auto-correct?
Here's a thought from last Falisko's performance class in Elkins, WV 2013. I was playing Bass and BobbyHughes guitar. The harp player jumped a measure. I followed the harp player, then Bobby followed me, and we synced up with the harp player.
Joe gave a good comment about what we did. As the backup musician's, we (I) should not have changed to match the soloist. If the soloist is lost, he needs to know he can find a safe place to land. If the band is solid and can give that safe place for them to lock onto, then the rhythm section should stand firm. That way you only have one person messing up and not 2 or three bouncing around trying to find each other.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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SuperBee
1257 posts
Jun 28, 2013
3:48 AM
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Oh, the bassman was just not tracking. It's ok for me, I've got 12 bar changes in my bones from 30 plus years of wallowing in it, it's hard for me to understand that some of these guys really don't feel it quite that strong...they're 20 years younger than me, and you know, they're aware of the blues but they don't have the disease like me.
Anyway, I let him know, after the gig. He was unaware. Strange; I'd noticed it in practice but thought he was aware because he would correct himself, so I was expecting he'd self-correct at the gig. I thought it was just a random cock-up not a systemic problem.
Anyway, I can address the problem with the bass. It's the question of what the guitar does if that happens which bothers me. He said to me 'ultimately I have to follow the bass' to which my immediate reaction was 'bullshit, bass goes off course so you join him and hang me out to dry when I'm in the spotlight...f*** that!'
But then I wondered, is he right? Do I need to be agile enough to catch those things and adapt my playing to fit?
I'm new to the role of frontman, so I thought I'd see what you guys think about it. I understand its my responsibility to address in practice to stop it happening...but I'm wondering how the song is best served when there is a cock up.
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JellyShakersTipJar
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Jim Rumbaugh
876 posts
Jun 28, 2013
5:06 AM
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I say,
"whoever writes the check at the end of the night gets to call the changes"
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
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timeistight
1279 posts
Jun 28, 2013
9:51 AM
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"He said to me 'ultimately I have to follow the bass' to which my immediate reaction was 'bullshit, bass goes off course so you join him and hang me out to dry when I'm in the spotlight...f*** that!'
But then I wondered, is he right? Do I need to be agile enough to catch those things and adapt my playing to fit?"
Well, if the bass player refuses to correct himself, then you'll all have to adjust to him. It's better to have four people wrong together than three right and one stubbornly wrong.
But if you as frontman/soloist clearly signal the change you want, they should follow you regardless of what they think is correct.
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Kingley
2808 posts
Jun 28, 2013
10:00 AM
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It's the rhythm sections job to keep the groove going no matter what. If the bass player can't do that, then sack him and get a new one! Remember a band is only as good as it's rhythm section. They really do make or break a band.
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SuperBee
1260 posts
Jun 28, 2013
3:34 PM
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Yeah, I hope it is not going to be a regular feature of the show!
It's not really a situation easily rescued by signalling changes, but I'll certainly be introducing that concept to the guys.
I've had the conversation with the bass player. It's the conversation with the guitarist I'm thinking about. We were playing as a trio, so his decision to follow the bass, whom he knew had jumped the change, left me as the odd man out when the spot was on me. And he told me that in the same situation he would do it again. I hope the situation won't arise again. I don't blame the guitarist for his decision; he had to make a snap decision on the spot and he did what he thought best. No problem, it's gone, past done.
Actually, this is a very helpful thread for me. I'll just have the discussion in the room with everyone, rather than separate chats with people. There's a tendency for Chinese Whispers otherwise. I think that will be a very good policy to adopt with these guys.
JellyShakersTipJar
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Kingley
2814 posts
Jun 28, 2013
4:30 PM
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"I'll just have the discussion in the room with everyone, rather than separate chats with people. There's a tendency for Chinese Whispers otherwise. I think that will be a very good policy to adopt with these guys."
Yes I agree 100%.
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Harpaholic
256 posts
Jun 28, 2013
5:24 PM
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if the guitarist follows the bass players mistake, you should do the same. Thats what i would do. That kind of thing happens too often at jams.
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KingoBad
1334 posts
Jun 28, 2013
7:12 PM
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If you're singing, you better be able to jump on that second line very quickly or just drop out.
I personally would have a line ready about a bass player who has "premature chord actualization."
My philosophy is that all the instruments are there to support the singer.
If you are playing... Sure, you can jump to catch up. But its not fun when you have an embedded sense of the changes.
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Danny
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Kingley
2817 posts
Jun 28, 2013
9:56 PM
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"My philosophy is that all the instruments are there to support the singer."
Bingo Kingo! That's being in the service of the song.
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Gnarly
624 posts
Jun 28, 2013
11:41 PM
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Yes, the guitar should follow the bass, unless you don't trust the person playing bass.
Everybody should follow everybody--tonight the flute player modulated "Limbo Rock" from G to A as planned, but then, due to a miscommunication, into B natural! No harps involved at the timeg--good thing!
Kinda hard to sing "La la" in that key too.
Oops non blues
OK, one word--"Juke"
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