I get this question a lot. I am eager to hear the advice you give when you hear it.
Let’s assume Joe Harp Player has an amp that is suitable for harp. If not, there is a whole other road that needs to be traveled.
So, Joe has a harp amp and is looking for a crunchy tone. What do you tell him?
1. Crunch comes from the player, not the amp, not a pedal. One player might get thin tone out of an amp while a different player gets crunch.
2. Crunch is for effect, not constant. It is best when it is subtle. If Joe is looking for a constant ripping tone I suggest he gets a vintage Fender Champ or Kalamazoo amp and crank it. But even with that amp he may not achieve crunchosity if he doesn't have some technique.
3. Use a good bullet microphone, preferably one with a Shure Controlled Magnetic element.
4. Learn to achieve a good cup of the microphone. Again, this is for effect and not constant. Joe does not need to hold the mic in a tight Kung Fu Grip, just get a good acoustic seal sometimes.
5. Attack the notes to crunch them. Open just a bit to add just a touch of a different reed, and use a slight explosive breath. (By attack, I don’t mean “play harder.”)
6. Play duotones (two adjacent holes, or octave splits) slightly bent.
7. Joe doesn't have to tongue block to get crunch, but it sure sounds cool.
What practical advice do you give for this? We can always put up a video of Lester Butler or Gary Primich and say, “Do it like this” but that is not always helpful.
I am in any way an expert or a good player, but I think that I have a solid cupping technique, and when I play the sound is significantly diferent from the guy next to me.
The problem is, that the guy next to me dosent care about the warm sound of a good cup, he prefers the "higer" sound, the more "distorted" sound of a loose cup.
I had the same converstion whit a few harp player in my country, and most of them think that the real sound is the "overdrive" sound, so more distortion is better.
For us who want a warmer sounds, your 9 point are 100% right.
Last Edited by rogonzab on Jun 06, 2013 10:27 AM
Agree with the above. Cupping technique is HUGE. Also - a little Fender Champ or Kalamazoo has more natural crunch than a big amp. A lot of crunch has to do with the attack of a note or chord. Pulls, pull-slaps help a lot. ---------- ---------- /Greg
I'm not a harmonica master, but I play live frequently, and I've been learning some tricks to get that crunchy sound: I get it using slaps and tongue blocking, and when I play pucker I try to "unclean" some notes: that is to accentuate some notes playing them like a dirty chord. Instead of a -3, play a chord of -34, the same with the -4 and the -6. It gives you a punchy fat sound that sounds really good when playing amplified.
To continue what Martic said - note it is possible to play a 3-4 draw (preferably bent) and CONTROL the amount of the 4 in there. Does not have to be all the way open - you can just "leak" a little air, making the 3 the primary tone. As soon as ANY of another whole creeps in though, "crunch" will increase. ---------- ---------- /Greg
Finding players and venues to share and play different gear would really expedite the learning. Where else can you learn so much so fast? Like a A Mile High Blues society event, which I sure would like to do but live 1000 miles away. Playing gear tells you plenty, especially if other people are playing the same gear AND you are capable of LISTENING. Then the only variable is you. That should factor out some of the holy grail quest. Listen to a decent TB next to the same note that's LP. Oh.
Last Edited by Littoral on Jun 06, 2013 12:35 PM
Tuckster, every player does his crunch thing a little different. There are lots of good examples out there. I didn't put up a video because the question usually comes just like the topic of this thread: "How do you get crunch?" Very generalized.
I think it is done with a percussive action of the embouchure and by popping and bending the reeds a little on chords.
I don't think you get there by putting a pedal in front of your amp, although it may help. You still gotta have the chops, and it is not hard.
Sonny Jr. had a motto on his website: "You gotta bring something to the table." I think what he meant was if you want to get that nice sound you need the chops. Buying a certain amp or pedal won't do it by itself.
Littoral... funny you should mention that. Ronnie Shellist and I are planning exactly such an event: We will have several good harp amps and mics on stage and do a clinic on crunch and tone. The date has not been set.
Here's a sample of the Kalamazoo model 1, and to the best of my knowledge, the mic is an EV630. You can hear clean to crunch depending on the cupping and player style as discussed. (There is a bit of acoustic playing through the PA as well)
This is a Zoom recording taken last night (6/5/13) at an open mic at The Lockdown Brewery in Folsom, Ca.
Brandon Bailey, Kyle Rowland and host Brian Souders. Brandon had already done his thing, then he was called up for a little jam session. It was a fun night.
---------- The more I learn about harmonica, the more I learn how much more there is to learn.
Last Edited by TahoeMike00 on Jun 06, 2013 1:44 PM
Here is a video of three players getting different levels of crunch:
Ronnie Shellist is playing my Mission 32-20 with zero effects. He is a superb player, but rather clean. That is the way he likes it. He went through phases where he played with more crunch but this is where he is now. Crunch is well controlled and only for effect. He is using a crystal mic.
Gregg McKenzie is also playing the 32-20 amp but with a little slap-back delay. He uses the techniques we discussed above to add texture to his tone.
Nic Clark adds the good cupping technique. He even blocks the upper unplayed holes with his cheek. He is playing my Bassman with no effects. Nic and Gregg are both using my Shure 440SL mic.
I practice a lot without an amp. I have been getting better at getting sounds I thought required an amp to get. Greg's description matches what I have been doing when I notice this sound.
Is "crunch" related to dissonance? If so, a 6-7 draw should be pretty crunchy, but it just sounds like it needs to be resolved.
So far, the most amp like sound I have gotten is on a 5-6 blow. I think what I am doing is popping one reed into overblow but I am not sure. I just keep experimenting and trying to get the good stuff consistent enough to be usable.
"Crunch" - I think everyone has their own perception/definition.
I've heard terms in addition to crunch such as: Dirt, grit, mud, breakup, distortion, "that Chicago tone", dissonance, dissonant resonance, tearing, tearing around the edges, over-driven, over-driving, over-modulating, punched etc. What does it all mean.... and sound like?
Rick, the event you and Ronnie will be doing sounds like a great way to demonstrate that.
---------- The more I learn about harmonica, the more I learn how much more there is to learn.
Last Edited by TahoeMike00 on Jun 06, 2013 2:16 PM
Rick, that was very useful. Mixing mics and amps made it a bit tricky to conclude. All 3 with the exact same gear would be ideal -but it does look like the other variables were reasonably controled (band volume, recording device/location). I'd like to hear 3 players, all representative of a particular technique, play the same note (or short phrase) one after the other through the same gear. Do that with a series of rigs as well. Ronnie is reminding me a bit of Primich, btw
Last Edited by Littoral on Jun 06, 2013 2:28 PM
I've heard the term "crunch" bandied about with reference to harp for a long time. I could never get a solid definition of it and agree it's pretty subjective. It's not necessarily extremely distorted. To me,Nic Clark is the "crunchiest" of the 3 on that video. I think it entails some bottom end "oomph" and really tight cupping. I could live with sounding like any one of those 3 players.
Lit, yeah, it is not a pure comparison but I don't know if we can really ever achieve that. My goal here was just to try to find better was to answer the question, "How do I get Crunch from my Amp?"
I'm often told that I have a nice "crunchy" tone. Whether or not that's a compliment remains to be seen. All I can tell you is that most of it is from my acoustic tone. I play all tongue blocked except for the blow bends. I utilise a lot of octaves and double stops, slaps, pulls, flutters, etc. I tend to mostly use a bullet mic of some description when playing amplified. I get pretty much the same tone though, if I use an stick mic into an amp as well. Playing direct into the PA it's a lot cleaner but the grit is still there, if and when I want it. I guess that if someone asked me how to get a "crunchy" tone my first advice would be to look at technique. Tongue blocking is most of the key to it I think.
Here's an example that shows (I think) that it's acoustic technique that does most of the work. With the amp/mic combo adding some icing to the cake. At this jam I started off acoustic and at the end switch to an bullet mic with MC151 element into a Lone Wolf Harp Attack into the PA.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jun 06, 2013 10:05 PM
The fundamental principle of Buddhism (I think), is that it is man's destiny to suffer. And the first of the four basic truths (I think) is that suffering is caused by the difference between what we want and what we have.
As a beginner in search if crunch, I can tell you,
I've changed the tubes on my amp...there was an improvement.
I'm learning to incorporate octaves and tongue blocking. There's an improvement.
I'm learning to loosen up and play a little dirtier, a la Kim Wilson. There's an improvement.
I bought a Mic from Greg Heumann. There was a great giant leap of an improvement.
I've changed my grip an am learning to cup. I freaking hate it but I know I'm on a path that leads to crunch.
And every now and then, there's glimpses of Nirvana.
I've concluded, as this post started, there's no one answer, there are all answers.
That said, I do have this question. Listen to the opening few notes of You Don't Have to Go by Pinetop Perkins on Pinetop's Boogie Woogie. I don't know the harpist.
The guy plays a clean 2 draw...and you hear rasp, and buzz. What do you think is the source of that particular lovely distortion?
Rocker -yes. The rhythm section is outrageous. LW is on a jump launch pad with them. 1:33 to 1:50 is phrase time fun that starts with TB percussion (Crunch!) that locks in with the beat and then contrasts with lyrical phrases around the beat after that. LW, geez.
Crunch really comes from attack, mic technique, and gear. You can't get true harmonica CRUNCH acoustically. You can get fat chords and colorful tones, but not crunch. Crunch comes from using that same fat tone while overdriving a mic or amp. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
That's great acoustic playing, but it has nothing to do with crunch. I don't hear any crunch at all. Kingley had way fat tone on his clip, but no crunch until he amped up. The LW clip is a classic example of crunch.
Compare the two LW clips. No one can argue that one is more distorted and crunchy than the other.
Check out the acoustic guitar in Kingley's clip. That guy played with some thickness much like a harp player would TB...doesn't sound crunchy like it would through an amp, though. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
Last Edited by HarpNinja on Jun 07, 2013 9:41 AM
No. If crunch = technique than a bullet mic and tube amp wouldn't be needed to hear it.
My whole point is that the gear turns a player's attack and technique into crunch. If the crunch was there strictly through the player, there would be no need for any effect (no mics or amps) other than eq. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
It's crunch all the same, whether acoustic or amped... just different spectrums of the same donut :) blues acoustic playing would get boring pretty quick if you couldn't crunch it up now and then :)
I agree with Frank. It's all part of the same thing. Just a question of degrees. I suspect that many people think of "crunch" as simply the overdrive/distortion created by an amp/mic. I find it a hard thing to describe, but to me "crunch" is a little like using "intentional slop" when playing acoustically. It's those little nuances around the attack on the note(s), that create a kind of ripped edge to the players acoustic tone. This generally appears more among tongue blockers due to their use of slaps and pulls.
Last Edited by Kingley on Jun 07, 2013 10:43 AM
I would agree with HarpNinja. While I understand the acoustic harp sound and the techniques being demonstrated and described as being crunch, it doesn't fit my definition of crunch.
I would include the need for smooth even-order harmonics usually associated with a cupped mic and tube amplifier (or modeling pedal?) that occur when the technique is applied. This is most apparent with a bullet and tube amp, but not limited to just that.
Kingley's recording sounds great, but "crunch" did not immediately come to mind for me. Maybe "potential crunch?" ----------
I can tell that this subject drives HarpNinja absolutely bonkers!!! FWIW, I agree 100% with his views on it also. If all of the "sound" of the sound ("tone", "crunch", etc.) comes from player and technique, why does anyone need all their expensive gear? Why not just show up and blow into the PA?
markdc--- With vintage-style tube amps you have to PLAY the amp as well as the harp to get the good blues tone and crunch. It starts with the player and the harp. The amp ain't passive...
When you put it all together it is a pretty glorious sound.
Great examples of full tone and the use of chords. No crunch, though. Crunch requires clipping and an increase in harmonics. Playing chords acoustically is not crunch. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
Listen to Andy Just play clean lines acoustically and amped to hear the difference between no crunch and crunch. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
I agree with Mike, crunch comes from the audible break up of a speaker, not the player. I thought everyone knew that!
Last Edited by Harpaholic on Jun 07, 2013 2:03 PM
Rick, that's my point. Crunch comes from clipping not acoustic tone. An acoustic tongue slap is not crunch. If that slap is miked or amped and it clips the mic or amp it creates crunch...which may sound good or bad.
LW at 1:33-40 on Rocker is exactly "Crunch" -an attacked note that overdrives... Acoustic doesn't do that. I listened to all of the Gary Smith and the KW. Great, of course, but I never heard the sound that happens on Rocker, 1:33-40.
Mike, of course gear matters. You can put a poor player or beginner in front of a fine amp and he will not get good crunch. No matter where you think it is generated, it takes technique to achieve it.
The new players who ask the question pretty much agree with some of you guys: It's all in the amp. Not really... You tease it out of the amp with technique.
Unless of course you just want a constant ripping tone. That would be all amp, and it sometimes sounds cool. But that would mean the answer to the question at the top of this thread is always "Get a Tweed Champ." That is just not practical.
We hear crunch from all kinds of amps. Gear makes all the difference, but you have to have the chops to make the sound. It is not just turning knobs.
I also disagree that crunch always means clipping. I sometimes play while watching my signal on a scope. That just ain't the case.
Crunch certainly means clipping whey you are playing a ratty little single ended cathode biased 5-watt amp, but not when you are playing something bigger.
A speaker can surely break up without clipping. I have a couple 20 watt plus amps that crunch without clipping when playing guitar. The amps with speakers that break up early produce more crunch at a lower volume.
I thought crunch was the attack tone of the harmonica (the first instance between silence and duration of note) somehow over driving or clipping the amp. Perhaps all those cheap mics/amps used in the 40's did this because all the components were inexpensive and not built to accurately reproduce the sound injected. ---------- The Iceman
Rick, you asked what you say when someone asked how to get crunch out of an amp. Of course the fundamental issue is technique. NO Brainer, even for amateurs. They want the right amp. That's a quest you know well, your own grail quest continues. If you want crunch out of an amp you'll need great technique AND an amp,
Last Edited by