I think it's Little Walter playing on Muddy Waters' recording of Don't Go No Further. Does anyone know what harp/position he's playing? It's a pretty odd (in my estimation) avant-garde type of sound he's getting, and I can't figure it out.
He is using a chromatic. And if you look at the youtube comments, someone nicely commented that he's playing Eb on a Hohner 64 Chromonica with the slide held in. So presumably it's a chromatic harmonica in the key of C, but played in the key of Eb.
Edit: 1847 beat me to the punch!
Last Edited by ridge on Jun 04, 2013 11:17 AM
Harmonica positions are defined by the relationship between the labelled harmonica key and the key it's played in: play it in the key on the label, and you're in first; play it in the fifth of the key on the label, second; play it in the fifth of that and you're in third, and so on.
Tenth position (Eb on a C) is probably the most used position in blues chromatic next to third. All you need to do is hold the button down and you're in Eb Dorian anywhere on the harp.
Hmm, I think calling it tenth position is kind of screwy. Playing in Eb on a C with the button out would be tenth fair enough. I mean ok. It's a label but its more meaningful to say 3rd with button in, IMHO. I always think of this song as LW since i first heard it on a LW compilation released with a blues history encyclopaedia. And this I'd the first time in 25 years since I've ever had reason to question it. ----------
SUPER BEE; dont ruin it for me i am walking around like a rooster with my chest puffed out, i can now play in tenth position, hope no one asked about the other nine it also sounds more sophisticated to say 10 th than to call it slant harp ---------- tipjar
Last Edited by 1847 on Jun 04, 2013 2:18 PM
Being fairly new at chro,and not a big button pusher,play the third for DDm,and button always in for the Eb,dam good place to start.William Clarke Chromatic Jump,what a ripper,believe he switches to a Ab diatonic for a short spell to do what Bill did best,play good time music totally badass.
Yeah Wendell, that's how I looked at it, but tight is right about the button, if you have to use the button it's different to playing the chromatic with the button out, so that makes 3rd position on chrom with button out different to what I was thinking of as 3rd pos with button in, therefore its no more useful than thinking about 10th position on a diatonic. I dunno, maybe someone plays that, maybe Howard can play 10th on diatonic...but if the definition of tenth is Eb on a C harmonica rather than having anything to do with the way you play as in transferable patterns from on harp to another, which seems reasonable when I think about it, because of the different scales which can be played...then you do have to accept Eb on a chrom is 10th position. Which just is what it is...I.e. not a very useful concept unless you are already familiar with playing chromatic. Whereas if you knew how to play third pos on a diatonic, you might pick up a chrom and have a decent chance, there's virtually no chance any diatonic player will have a skill at tenth and pick up a C chrom thinking about Tenth pos. problem is, if they try playing third with the button in they'll maybe have a few probs too because it'll be a little different to third with button out...if they actually need to use the button to find a note, and not just keep it held in. I'm rambling I know..and it really hurts..but where is a guy like chromaticblues when you need him? I may be wrong, but I have this feeling that chromatic players aren't really into the 'position' thing in the same way diatonic players are...but I wouldn't know and I don't even know why I'm getting involved in this as what I know about chromatic can all be played in 3rd pos on a C diatonic (or an Ab) Really I just wanted to say that thing about little Walter being the player...and I guess I don't even really know that...
Just like 1847 and Wendell said if you gonna play it straight forward with either button held in at all time or not using it at all then you simply have sort of two big diatonic harps to play in third pos. - one in C and one in Db. How I look at it is - the song use the Db mode with 3rd pos. thinking and play in the key of Eb. I think that's pretty straight forward..
Kim Wilson uses the same technique-3rd position on a C chromatic with the button in equating to Eb on "When the Lights Go Out" on his "Tigerman" CD-both songs mentioned in this post are in the key of Eb-and Kim and Walter keep the button held in for the whole song.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jun 05, 2013 5:52 AM
It's definitely on a C chromatic (a 64 Chromonica to be exact) with the slide pressed in most of the time. LW is definitely playing it, and the only other two harp players who ever played chromatic and used the button at all who worked with Muddy were Junior Wells and George Harmonica Smith and neither of them recorded with Muddy on any of his sessions after 1954.
Early in LW's career using a chromatic, he never used the button at all but from around this time onward he began using the slide button. When this tune was originally issued as a 45, the flip side was the tune Diamonds At Your Feet, and it's in the same key, doing the exact same thing, tho on the recording, his mike cable took a dump on him (nowadays, they'd either rerecord his track or overdub, but back then, this almost never happened). ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
timeistight-"I'm sure everyone agrees that Eb on a regular C diatonic is 10th position, right?"
But it's not a C diatonic,it's a C#/Db,if you want to continue that analogy. I find it confusing to think in positions on a chromatic.To me song key is easier. Only blues harp players seem to think in positions. The majority of jazz/classical chrom players think in keys.
I'm not making an analogy at all. I'm saying that position is the relationship between the key you're playing and the key stamped on the harmonica, full stop.
If you only have one key of harmonica, then I agree that you may as well just talk about keys, but chromatics come in multiple keys, just like diatonics do.
What about F? You can play a whole F minor pentatonic scale on a C chromatic with the button in. Does that mean F is 5th position instead of 12th? Not to me.
i think timeistight makes a strong enough argument for 10 th position. it seems to me that lw is releasing the button in places. if so he is playing that more as a chromatic, i would think that bolsters his "position" lol.
i used a Db diatonic in 3 rd position to find the key center yesterday i would never use a c harp to play in Eb never! i would think lw thought of it as 3 rd position also
but technically 10 th position on a c harp = Eb so i'll chalk it up to having learned something new ..... i like learning. so thank you mr timeistight.
No argument C harp in Eb is 10th. But as soon as you keep that button pushed in,you're now in Db. As far as I'm concerned,that changes everything. Perhaps it's just a matter of semantics. I'm not trying to be argumentative.
For the chromatic instrument there are two approaches I can recommend.
The most common method associated with big name Blues Harmonica players is fairly quickly achieved by playing in "3rd Position" on a key of C chromatic, which would be used to play in key of D minor (Dorian mode). Start on draw 1 and progress up the scale to draw 5. The most effective way of emulating this is with a 16 hole chromatic (usually Hohner Chromonica 64). Draw a fat chord on the bottom 4 holes, slide up the chromatic (keeping the 4 hole chord draw) to the top, then blow/draw/blow/draw chords back down to the bottom in time with the beat. You can then work into a jazzy blow/draw vamp or single notes in the middle registers. Also using octaves in this way is very effective. This method is also just as effective by keeping the button held in for the whole song, giving Eb minor (Dorian mode).
In the Chicago style of blues chromatic, the draw chord for a C chromatic is the D minor 6th, not D major. Even if the tune is major, this is the chord that is played on the harp.
D minor 6th lends itself to the D blues scale ( D-F-G-Ab-A-C-D ); the added flat 5 (Ab) requires one button push.
Now if you raise the key of the tune one half step, Eb, you keep the button in but the same pattern is used to play the Eb blues scale ( Eb-Gb-Ab-A-Bb-Db-Eb ) but now you release the button once to get that flat 5.
For a really cool example of "Blues Chromatic Played With Button In", I like Rick Estrin's Coastin Hank. *key of D# on a Bb Chromatic Edit: Whoops I meant Db Must be the fried brain effect Big Walter was talking about ! -=====- wendell
On "Coastin' Hank",Rick is playing a Bb Chromatic in third postion with the lever depressed-the song is in Db-.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Jun 05, 2013 2:56 PM
