Here's a dumb question that you probably haven't heard before. Suppose you were trying to put together a little blues band, just to play for fun, not paying gigs. Suppose you have a harp player and a lead guitar player/vocalist. Which should you look for next, a drummer or a bass player? Which is essential, and which could you make do without (if either)?
I would pick the bassist. It frees up everyone else to play in different holes and have more freedom. Your guitarist/vocalist will appreciate not having to hold down the rhythm part all the time.
If you're just playing for fun and not looking at playing gigs then it doesn't really matter which you choose. I agree with Puri. Good blues drummers are very rare in most parts. It can also be hard finding a good doghouse bass player. It all depends on what type of blues you're planning on doing. If it's the 1950's Chicago style stuff then good players in that style are very few and far between. If you're doing more modern rock blues for example then those players are everywhere.
lots of bands have had no bass player. the doors,the rascals,the cramps and hound dog taylors house rockers. if you cant play bass piano one handed and play harp you may try bass pedals or even a homemade bass kalimba. a bass kalimba is pretty simple you could teach a child or gf to do it. now hound dog taylor solved this by open Dd tuning and two guitarists but that would limit your playing to an F# harp. most hill country bands consist of two guitarists and a drummer, and usually in open D vestapol or crossed spanish open E tuning. personally small gigs i would choose two guitarists one who can also play bass and double up on bass myself. and look for a flaky drummer whos drums are always in hock to play an electric bucket with brushes. this way if one player cant show up you can always do a cocktail gig
From professional experience, for playing real blues anyway, really good blues drummers and bass players are often the two most difficult to find as well as the most difficult to hang on to. In order of which one first, it's just about always going to be the drummer, then the bass player.
NEVER base your choice of a drummer or bass player on their soloing ability because that is THE LEAST IMPORTANT ASPECT of what their doing and laying down the groove is the single MOST IMPORTANT part of their job. Why? What the hell good is a great solo if they can't hold that groove down, which means their time absolutely HAS to be ON THE MONEY 24/7/365 and there's no excuse for tnot doing that.
In black music bands, whether it's blues or anything else, the first guys hired and the first fired are always the drummer and bass player because they believe in an absolute truth that I've found from pro exerience is that if the rhythmn section sucks, the band will ALWAYS suck regardless of how good the lead players are.
As a harp player, if you're gonna be a bandleader, the first thing you need to do is get your own time straight (and FAR TOO MANY harp players are often too damned lazy to get their act together when it comes to this). Why? How the hell can you TRULY tell the difference if someone's time on your bandstand (as well as your own) is screwing up even the tiniest bit????? There's no way in hell you can without getting that together and if you think it's possible, you're flat out lying to yourself. Trust me, the minute you get your own time straight, you can't help notice in a New York nanosecond if someone else just screwed up the time and when the groove gets messed up even a tiny bit, regardless of genre, it will make ANY band's music inchoherent and completely undanceable. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@MN -- first thing to do is start working with a metronome and also get to the point where you can call of the time of the tune correctly EVERY TIME.
Another thing about drummers is making sure that they NEVER drop beats, and just like losing the time, those are two AUTOMATIC reasons for them to get their sorry butts fired in a hurry. Being on the road with some old school black musicians, I've seen them stop in the middle of the night in a dark, deserted highway take their gear out of the van and leave them on the road with their gear on the highway and drive off, forcing them to thumb a ride home and they REUSED to put up with drummers who either lost the time or dropped a beat. I've seen Albert King fire his drummer (and heard him screaming OFF the mic) in the middle of the first tune of the night.
With bass players, you NEVER want someone playing more like a lead bass player, which maybe a Jaco Pastorious type would be OK for fusion jazz, but NEVER for blues because the groove would get messed in a hurry.
What this requires is learning to listen to music with "bigger ears," meaning paying attention to EVERY LITTLE DETAIL of what's going on, meaning MORE than just the damned solos.
Let me say this, having a lousy rhythm section not only makes your band look and sound like total dog s**t, but even more so as a bandleader, that will give you a bad reputation among other musicians for years (and a good decade long or possibly more would NOT be an understatement).
Unless you go to the more special invite/snob/pro jams, at most open jams you're more often than not are gonna be surrounded by players whose time absolutely sucks and most of them haven't got a goddamned clue about it, so you need to spend time, as a harp player learning this, and this is part of the way of developing good listening skills as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
my biased opinion as a upright bass player in a roots blues/bluegrass band who also can blow a harp is to of course say bass player! the couple of times I have played with a drummer they just didn't "get it" in terms of picking up the feel of a song or paying attention to the dynamics of the other players. I'm sure I just haven't had the right guy sit in but we cruise along just fine with no drummer. I have a harder time imagining no bass. I play slap style which also means I am 3/4 bass 1/4 drummer anyway
personally I prefer the stripped down older styles of blues so my opinion is probably off the map since my ideal drummer would be a guy who knows his way around a washboard
Drummer, the guitar and kick drum covers bass easy ---------- Sun, sun, sun Burn, burn, burn Soon, soon, soon Moon, moon, moon
Last Edited by JInx on Jun 03, 2013 12:06 PM
My point above, was that with a bass player, you and your guitarist will be able to explore more musically and melodically than with only a drummer.
You lose the entire responsibility of holding down the groove and can move around and have musical freedom while the bass player holds down the groove. A dummer can keep the beat, but he can't move you through the changes.
Your guitarist/vocalist is spending plenty of mental energy holding your groove AND singing. He may enjoy that very much, but he can't really take a break to focus on only vocals or soloing - even if you give him a break by taking up the groove on harp - it fundamentally changes the sound of the song.
I'm certainly not against drummers, but finding a great for fun only drummer might prove to be next to impossible. I'd just as soon find a friend who could keep time, buy him a snare and brushes, and lock him in a room with Jimmy Reed blasting 24/7 for a few weeks.
I would look at what each adds to your actual goals. Since you are NOT looking for paying gigs, does that mean NO gigs? I assume you want to play for someone. There are plenty of opportunities to play, even if you don't get paid.
Mostly I guess it depends on what song choices you make. Your whole style will develop around what you have or don't have. You will make due, now you just need to decide what is the best fit for your needs.
As you can see above, for different situations, there are plenty of different choices...
BBQ Bob, so getting a decent band might require some elves spells potions magic luck and the right root. Then, when you got it all lined up, it still takes some extra who knows what to be special. Kim Wilson told me those nights are 1 in 10.
Last Edited by Littoral on Jun 03, 2013 2:52 PM
Chopsy, I can totally understand what you're saying and there's more than a bit of truth of an old saying that many of the old black pros I worked with often have said, and that it is easier for a good drummer to work with a bad bass player than it is for a good bass player to work with a bad drummer.
Having said that, BOTH PLAYERS need to be on the same page 24/7 or it's a disaster. I've worked in settings from large bands with 2 guitars, keyboards, bass, drums, and four horns to small trio set ups, tho most of my stuff has largely been with 4 piece, much of it based on financial reasons or stage size reasons more than anything else.
I've done trios with no drums as well as no bass. They only work if EVERYONE has excellent time and is grooving 24/7 and if just one of them ain't doing that, it will always fall apart and sound like the world's worst open jam anyone would the most incredible DISPLEASURE to hear, and even worse, to gig in.
I've had some experiences with a bass player who was known as a jazz upright player, but he played in the typo of jazz thing where groove was implied more than actually played and one minute he'd be behind the beat, the next minute too far ahead of it, which got me both physically as well as mentally exhausted and I came real close to wrapping his bass around his neck for doing that.
I did a freelance gig with a guitar player who's time could get shaky at times, but on the gigs I was called upon to play, at least he had a good bass player and drummer, which made damned sure things stayed musically coherent, but the last time I did anything with him, he had a bass player that I'd hire in a NY minute to gig with me, but the drummer, to be NICE about it, absolutely sucked big time and he did everything you NEVER want happening with a drummer and that's:
a. dropping beats b. losing the time c. difficulty with dynamics (not really paying attention) d. when dynamics were brought down, his tempos slowed down and when up, he would speed up e. any or all of the above occurring any time, any place.
Both myself and the bass player both said to each other that if this two night engagement didn't have the fact that we'd get paid on the 2nd night, we would've bailed on this guy in a hurry and we both came home from the gig totally exhausted. I know my 35 minute drive home felt like 35 hours.
With bass and drums, they absolutely HAVE to be locked in 24/7/365 or everything is doomed to sound like total dogs**t. You have to make sure that you don't put up with ANY of that crap you're just gonna get stuck with the bottom of the barrel crap for the rest of your life. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
A little over the top on that last part, Bob. You tend to get worked up about this stuff.
A player doesn't need to find Buddy freaking Rich for his first band, or even his second or third. It is a learning process for everybody. Playing in clumsy bands is a rite of passage. A harp player can demand (and afford) top drummers only after he gets some road miles and has a few credits.
I think the important thing to remember is to always look to upgrade the players around you. Don't get married to them; that only makes for a painful divorce later. If you are a harp player and bandleader and you have some ambition you will need to dump players along the way, and more often than you think. Be prepared for that.
BTW, the best blues drummer I know -- the best I have ever played with or heard -- is Willie Panker out of NOLA.
"Suppose you were trying to put together a little blues band, just to play for fun, not paying gigs. Suppose you have a harp player and a lead guitar player/vocalist. Which should you look for next, a drummer or a bass player?"
To get back to the original questions, I'd just look for the best players you can find without worrying too much what instrument they play. You probably don't want another harp, but a piano or second guitar can add a lot in the hands of the right player.
The right player is probably not going to be a drummer, just because good drummers are too much in demand to spend time with a "just for fun" band.
"Which is essential, and which could you make do without (if either)?"
You can do without either or both. Self-contained harp/guitar duos can work great.
Last Edited by timeistight on Jun 04, 2013 3:20 PM
barbquebob is pretty much spot on in his comments though maybe a little aggressive in willingness to fire people in the least diplomatic way possible, though that is called for on occasion. But he's speaking in the context of a pro/semi-pro situation which is totally different than a hobby band.
In the context of the original question re: a fun/hobby band, timeistight is really spot on in all three comments. Always look for the best player, keeping in mind the "get along" factor. I might go one further and advise leaving a drummer to last, contrary to a pro situation where the drummer comes first. You'll have way more flexibility in the kind of gigs you can get into and you will want to gig somewhere sometime to keep the fun quotient up.
Finally, the story of dumping an errant player in the road reminds me of a guy who went with us on a tour of Ireland, we'll call him Cass because that's what everyone called him. He was a friend of the drummer and acted as drum roadie. I hated the guy. He was a weasel, but the drummer insisted and he was a world class drummer. So I agreed as long as drummer was responsible for him.
So one night we're in the bar after the gig and Cass starts shooting his mouth off about the IRA. Now we're just south of the border and though hostilities had ceased by this time the IRA was not something you brought up in a bar in Ireland, if anywhere, ever.
I asked the drummer to shut him up but he kept banging on so I gathered up the lads and made to exit. With the guys in the van I went back in for an idiot check and was taken aside by one of the patrons. The dude informed me in that quiet tone that genuinely real hard men have, that if my "friend" every showed up around there again he was dead.
When I returned to the van I didn't say anything but when we got to the hotel I asked Cass to go to the corner shop for some cigs. While he was gone I went to the room he shared with the drummer, gathered all his stuff and left it by the desk where it could be seen as soon as he came through the door and told the desk clerk Cass would be leaving. I then went and told the drummer that if he let Cass back in the room he was fired.
Later, when I heard Cass raising a ruckus in the hall I went out and basically told him in no uncertain terms that his services were no longer required, how he got home was his problem, and he could either walk back down the stairs or bounce down the stairs, whichever was best for him.
I heard he made it back, though I didn't care one way or the other, but that was the last he ever came around the band. Probably the last time he ever went to Ireland. ---------- LSC ---------- LSC
Last Edited by LSC on Jun 04, 2013 3:55 PM
My 2c: - pick the one with best timing and the smallest ego! - look for secondary skills: another (backing) vocalist is always useful - bass is easier to turn down than drums (which tend to set the stage volume).
There aren't too many keys players that can keep a bass rhythm like The Doors Ray Manzarak (RIP), and having someone (bass or drums) to look after the rhythm can be really helpful to the guitarist, vocalist and harp player (even if those three are one person).
Yeah who ever is ready to play for fun,but practicing enough to keep close to a groove.I am partial to a bass player that can sing,and harmonize.
A bad drummer is a nightmare,a good drummer,hard to find or control with out the motivational money in pocket.Friendly recreational conga rythm players abound.But alot of older guys who are retired and comfortable have been playing drums as a hobby,maybe find one he needs an excuse to get out of the shack.
The brutal honesty of BBQ Bob hits me like a sledgehammer,and I appreciate his laser insight into the serious side of making a living,and the privilege of performing for a living.
Great Story LSC
Last Edited by capnj on Jun 04, 2013 9:10 PM
I did a gig with this for the first time on the weekend. Small wine bar, not big enough for real bass/drums - didn't pay enough for them anyway.
It's a pretty good machine, not prefect, but definitely useable once you work out what it can and can't do. It's been out a few years now, so you should be able to get one cheapish. I hope they do another iteration with some updates, but in the meantime I've got another useful tool that's always on time and always available. Trade offs!
Great topic. I would say recruit the bass player first so both you and the bass player can find a drummer. My experience has been that a good blues drummer is very hard to find. Most drummers just want to let loose and play rock. Our band had a great drummer then he left. After ads, phone calls, referrals and auditions, we still couldn't find one. Ultimately, we had a chick drummer. Great person but no sense of dynamics, rhythm and time. Although initially she was enthusiastic, She didn't understand blues and didn't bother to learn. She basically just wanted to bang on the drums. She ended up leaving us before a big gig because she knew she wasn't cutting it and the pressure was getting to her. At first we were upset because the search was going to be on again, then we were relieved because she made the choice for us. The old drummer came back and our sound instantly changed. I mean instantaneously. The difference was unbelievable. So recruit a bass player to help you recruit a good drummer.
Last Edited by blueswannabe on Jun 05, 2013 9:11 PM
@blueswannabe --- Regardless of genre, what you've described epitomizes a crappy drummer, period!!!!! Even a pro rock band would fire her in a NY nanosecond. I've seen plenty of drummers talk total s**t about how blues is so easy to play on drums, but then every one of them, I wind up saying to them, "then how come you totally suck at it!!!" It definitely sticks their overblown heads thru their rear ends.
A similar thing also applies to bass players as well. Finding a good bass player is only slightly easier than finding a good blues drummer because of similar issues as well.
If you just scout for them in open jams, it will come as no surprise that either may sound good in a jam, but the real test is when surrounded by far better musicians than what you find at most open jams and they're either on it or not, and unfortunately it tends to be the latter more often than not.
@chopsy --- I'm always on the lookout for bass players who can go back and forth easily between stand up and electric, and when playing standup, the ability to do the slap bass stuff ala guys like Willie Dixon, Ransom Knowling and Earnest "Big" Crawford. About 10 years ago, there used to be an instructional video called, (if I remember the title correctly) "Slap Bass --- The Ungentle Art," which was primarily for rockabilly bass, but much of that also applies to blues as well, and just watching it for the hell of it was pretty cool.
Having a good bass player as well as a good drummer makes a HUGE difference in the band and having crappy rhythm section makes for a crappy band. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@barbequebob I definitely am a scholar of Willie's! he is great in that he doesn't slap ALL the time which is like a drummer playing at 10/10 constantly. I appreciate the other suggestions, will check them out. Upright bassists are a tight knit group kind of like harp players... I have shared a forum with Mark Rubin, one of the players on that video. will have to check it out also. thanks!
@blueswannabe I played with a similar drummer at a pickup gig my banjo player roped me into. It was obvious he thought he could play blues just by knowing his way around a drumset. I had played with them before but I didn't know there would be a drummer, his first time with the band. when he shows up he is covered in tribal tattoos and very buff and immediately pegs me for a fellow metal guy (fair enough, I am, but that's not why we were there that day.) When he confided "dude we gotta get you a *real* bass!!!" I had to bite my tongue so hard.
At the end of most songs he would start playing double kickbass and hitting all the cymbals (plenty of crashes and some of those ones that sound like garbage cans to round out the racket) like it was a big 80s ending. Sometimes if the band waited too long to start the next song he would take a solo. I don't know if it was just because he was trying to impress me or if he honestly thought that was appropriate for the music but holy cow... pickup gig with that band? never again, learned my lesson. he was technically an excellent player but ruined the performance!
Since then their harp player has defected from the band to join us instead! I want to feel bad but not really...
Last Edited by chopsy on Jun 07, 2013 11:32 AM
@Chopsey -- the last two paragraphs of your post is a perfect example of people thinking how easy it is to play blues on either drums or bass, and 95% of these people who talk that kind of s**t almost always suck at playing blues or ANYTHING they percieve as simple/too simplistic.
There is also the other MYTH that white people tend to buy into and that's if you can play jazz or classical, because it's percieved as being much more difficult, you can play blues quite easily, and trust me, for every classical or jazz player (as well as many rock players, sorry to say) who THINK they can play blues, regardless of instrument, from personal experience, less than 5% of these guys I've met over the years in the times I've auditioned them actually can cut it and that is THE TRUTH!!!!
I agree with you on Willie not slapping all the time as the slap style isn't always going to be appropriate, and I've seen him several times over the years personally, Two bass players today who are great at slap bass in blues are Larry Taylor and Ronnie James Weber.
For drummers working with an upright bass, a great drummer told me that to properly mate up with him, hw usually tuned his kit lower in pitch and most drummers today tend to work with electric bass and their kits are tuned higher in pitch to cut thru the mix better.
That rock drummer you mentioned, many of those old blues guys would give him a non stop ration of s**t right on the bandstand right in front of the crowd and they could care less if they humiliated him in front of the crowd because they'd never put up with it and he'd make a great candidate for them leaving his sorry butt on a deserted highway in the middle of the night. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
