Why is it cool for a harp player to play blues licks over a tune that would beg for other note choices, but when a harp player plays non-blues licks over what is considered a "blues" type progression is is not ok?
My personal style (when not hired as a "genre" player) is to play arcing melodic lines during blues changes. I have pretty strong force of will and have great success - in other words, it works quite well...seems to make the audience listen a bit closer, as it comes at them from a totally fresh perspective. ---------- The Iceman
Look at the use of just the major and blue third between genres. It is naughty to play a major third over a D7 blues, but totally "cool" to play a blue third over a M chord on harmonica....we just call it bluesy.
I realize this happens with other instruments like guitar, and SOME of that is rooted in theory, but generally, we accept bluesy playing in just about any context. We don't accept non-blues playing in most contexts.
Most blues is based off of D7 chords and would allow the flexibility to play the Mixolydian mode, which lays out wonderfully on the top octave, but that doesn't require the use of the flat 3 or 4. If a harp player plays a blues using mostly Mixolydian, a lot of harp players would say it doesn't sound right, when in fact, it is more appropriate than using minor notes from the blues scale.
That is a great question/observation. However, I don't think it is cool for a harp player to play blues over a non-blues progression. My personal opinion is it sounds like every single other player out there. The coolest thing about making music is the one guy that brings something new and interesting to the table regardless of the genre.
That guy Sebastien Charlier does it. So does Frederic Y. I heard Mike Caldwell and Steve Baker do some stuff with Keep Your Hands To Yourself at the Hohner booth. These guys were all over it... Not only note doctors but the style was great and very rock based.
There was a young man at the blues circle at SPAH that was playing some crazy stuff on a chrom. These all stuck in my mind because they were different.
I guess One Way Out can become a little boring after 1,000 times.
---------- Greg Jones 16:23 Custom Harmonicas greg@1623customharmonicas.com 1623customharmonicas.com
What got me thinking of this even before the SHA thread, although that is a textbook example, was hearing (and I realize I am a huge Blues Traveler fan and bring them up a ton here and people probably don't like that) a version of Just For Me by Blues Traveler with G. Love guesting.
It is a very upbeat and happy song. Popper is playing some Mixolydian type stuff, but G. Love plays bluesy stuff. Technique aside, the note choices were very different and I realized I liked Popper's stuff better not because it was flashy, but it felt the mood of the song.
I always go back to Happy Birthday and a YT of Buddha's:
I obviously have thought about this at a deeper level than I would ever need to, but it really goes back to the whole perception of someone playing with soul and how playing wailing blues licks has a direct correlation to judging something as soulful....when sometimes it is just wrong (both in terms of music theory and connection to the song). ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
FWIW, I commute to work and listen to music that is on my iPad for the 90min roundtrip drive. My laptop is slow, so I don't change out music much. I happen to have a ton of 90's stuff on there so BT comes up a lot. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
Every blues harmonica resource on the planet. That's like the whole key to playing blues harmonica. The accepted blues scale does NOT include the major third.
Personally, I think HarpNinja makes a big point with the Buddha vid and 12th position. It's a separated funky form of straight harp and whilst it does require an equal temperament harp like the Golden Melody, it is very intuitive and fun.
Lots of us play the major third over the I chord in a blues.
"Adding the major third to your blues scale."
"Did you know the MAJOR BLUES SCALE EXISTS ?!?!"
"Learn intermediate music theory such as the pentatonic scale plus a lowered third (major blues scale) in this free video lesson."
"Two Blues Scales? In this video, you will learn how to use the "major blues" scale (derived from the major pentatonic) and the well-known "minor blues" scale (derived from the minor pentatonic) to create nice flowing jazz / blues improvisations."
"From Modern Blues Harmonica, a video voyage to the core of blues tonality: the 'blue third,' a microtonally-inflected note that every player needs to know."
"Second in a series on the mysteries of the "blue third," a quarter-tone that lies somewhere between the major and minor third and is a key constituent of the blues scale that all harmonica players must master."
"Blues Lick with major third lesson"
Last Edited by timeistight on May 24, 2013 1:15 PM
In music theory, a dominant seventh chord, or major minor seventh chord,[a] is a chord composed of a root, major third, perfect fifth, and minor seventh. It can be also viewed as a major triad with an additional minor seventh.... am i missing something? why would you not want to play a chord tone? ---------- tipjar
Don't get hung up on the terminology/theory too much. Real music (especially blues) slips in between rules and regulations. Remember, the music came first. Then came the theorists trying to explain how come it sounds cool.
The blues guys developed a sound based on that ol' Mr. Blues Scale, which did not include a maj 3rd. Some fans/players become Blues Nazis in their outlook and insist you can't do this, always do that, etc, to be the real deal.
Advantage to pure blues scale choices is that you don't have to worry about the chord progression or changes, as these note choices universally sound pretty good at any point in time.
However, feel free to experiment, use a maj 3rd (but NOT over the IV chord...that sounds pretty ugly). ---------- The Iceman
I TOTALLY agree that the major 3 is a valid note, and we could easily be discussing playing with speed, effects, etc. in lieu of note choice between blues and rock, BUT...
The HARMONICA materials out there generally stress the blue third and the major third being an avoid tone or at the most something to do in passing....discluding a handful of lessons from forward thinking harmonica players.
Adam, for example, did make a name playing straight blues. I am a HUGE S&A fan and his style is much more adapted to thinking outside the blues box. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
I was also hoping someone would point to non-harmonica examples as instruments like guitar seem to get it more than harmonica.
What gets argued in the harp world as being out - things like note choice, speed, effects, etc. are WIDELY accepted in the world of other instruments. If you look at the grey area of other instruments, it is much wider and much more forgiving. ---------- Mantra Customized Harmonicas My Website
I remember a video from Jason where he shows three different notes on the three draw over the I, IV and V chord. He plays an unbent three draw (i.e., a major third) over the I chord.
"so if i am playing a blues in G the 4 chord is a C7 and i play an E note on my harp it will sound bad?"
Not to me.
Actually, you can sometimes play that E over the I chord, too, depending on the type of sound you want. It's a sixth (or a thirteenth if it's I7).
Last Edited by timeistight on May 24, 2013 2:43 PM
play blues in G....2nd position for example. using blues scale, you get G, Bb, C, Db, D and F.
The Bb is a minor 3rd in the key of G. Not using only blues scale choices, a B is the maj 3rd in the KEY OF THE SONG ... of G.
Now, the IV chord in this progression is C7. If you play the maj 3rd - not of THIS IV CHORD - but the maj 3rd of the G (key the song is in), you will be playing a B natural against the C7 chord.
The C7 chord is spelled out C, E, G, Bb.
Playing a B in a chord that has an important Bb in its structure sounds pretty awful.
Hence, you avoid the maj 3rd of the CHORD WHICH IS THE KEY THE SONG IS IN when the progression moves to the IV chord. ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on May 24, 2013 2:42 PM
not sure if my thinking is flawed, perhaps a different way of looking at it. once the chord changes then that note is no longer the third. but i agree with what you are saying if you are playing a B and everyone else is playing a Bb you are playing a wrong note. and if you play that note twice that is not jazz you are just twice as %$#& up as everyone else
iceman you have forgot more about harmonica and music then i will ever know, i have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration. if you were in so cal. i would not hesitate to take lessons thanks for chiming in peace coop. ---------- tipjar
am so steeped in years and years of this music theory/technique/experience that sometimes I forget that what seems so obvious to me in a discussion about music is not common knowledge to everyone.
once so many words are used to describe something that is without words, it makes it more confusing than it need be.... ---------- The Iceman
