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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > Manji reed plates are very flat
Manji reed plates are very flat
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florida-trader
303 posts
May 21, 2013
9:30 AM
This morning, in between dropping the kids off at school and heading for work (aka a “real job”) I assembled a new Suzuki Manji for a customer. As always, I checked to see if there were any leaks between the reed plates and the Corian comb I installed. There were none. And then it occurred to me how nice it is to work with reed plates with reeds that are welded to the plate vs. the traditional riveted method. I say this with no malice toward riveted reeds. But I can’t tell you how many times, even after flat sanding the draw plate and making sure the comb is flat that I still fight a leak around the 2 draw. I’ve not seen this discussed much on the forums but I am convinced that when the machine at the factory jams the rivets into the reed plates it dimples the reed plate just a bit. These minor imperfections are not as pronounced on the high end of the harp where the reeds are shorter and there is more meat on the reed plate behind the reed slot. However, when you get to the 1 and 2 slots, there is not a lot of metal behind those slots which means it is not as strong and much easier for the metal to be deformed. Since the Suzuki reeds are welded to the plate, there is not of this compressing going on meaning that the plate is not deformed. You don’t even have to flat sand a Manji draw plate to get an air tight seal with the comb. This is just an observation. You guys who do repair work might not like working on welded reeds but as far as building new harps, it makes life easier.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
arzajac
1054 posts
May 21, 2013
9:58 AM
Tom, I don't mean to be a dick, but I pretty much disagree with everything.... Oh well! Opinions are like belly buttons - everybody's got one! :)

Well, while the riveting process is harder of the reedplates, it's not usually a problem.

I rarely find a leak that's hard to get rid of in the 2 hole. The leak on the 1 hole is easily made trivial.

The thing with the 1 hole is that the reed is so long, you can get away with a little less airtightness on it with no effect whatsoever. It's the same with some lower-tuned harps. Low-tuned Big Rivers are super leaky but nonetheless a joy to play.

I can get the 1 overblow to sustain and bend upwards on a harp that has light shining though the end of the slot. But if I'm making an overblow harp, I'm getting rid of that leak anyway... On an all-purpose harp, I will address the problem if it affects performance. If it ain't broken, why fix it? Light shining at the "end of the tunnel" may help you track down a problem, but it's not a problem in of itself.

Suzuki Manji plates do need to be flat sanded. I have found a lot of them to be unplayable without. And the moment you start to flat sand, you remove some of the plating and you can see where the unevenness is, without a doubt.

And why would it be harder to work on harps with welded reeds? It's just as easy to get the reed profiles perfect and generally easier to emboss because you don't have to worry about centering. Reed replacement is really easy - you just torque it off and use a screw to put in a new one.

(My two cents!)
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smwoerner
179 posts
May 21, 2013
11:02 AM
I’m going to have to agree with Andrew that the small comb/reed plate gap on the 1/2 is rarely noticeable. This is a timely thread considering I was up late last night finishing up a few harps for a customer. Two are older Marine Bands that I customized and was putting together with sanded and sealed original combs and the other was a repair (Crossover plates on a Corian comb from one of the top well know customizer’s).

I noticed that one of the Marine Bands had some light at the 1/2 and the other was dark as night. No difference in playability. Just for kicks I checked the other custom and sure enough a gap at the 1/2 and even a bit of a gap at the 8/9. All played great with smooth sustainable bends, responsive and loud, etc.

I think all of the customizing steps are important but, each has it’s own weight and all work in conjunction with each other. There is a fine line between airtight and stuffy, responsive and touchy, and numerous other little things.
florida-trader
304 posts
May 22, 2013
6:42 AM
Andrew. I don’t get what you disagree with. Are you just being needlessly provocative?

The intent of my post was to relate my experience with building a Manji yesterday morning. I stated that after assembling and inspecting it – there were no leaks. Do you disagree with that? I don’t see how you can since you weren’t here and did not see the harp. Are you saying that even though there were no leaks that I should have flat sanded the draw plate anyway? Why? The purpose of flat sanding a draw plate is to help make a better seal with the comb. How much better does it get than NO LEAKS? Rest assured that, if after assembling the harp, I had found leaks, I would have disassembled it and flat sanded the draw plate to eliminate those leaks. But I see no point in assuming a reed plate is not flat and automatically sanding it before testing it - especially when my experience with Manji reed plates has been very good with regard to flatness.

There is no question that during manufacturing of traditional reed plates the process of riveting reeds to a reed plate can and often does deform the reed plate. The fact that Manji reeds are welded to the reed plate eliminates this step and reduces the likelihood that the plate will be deformed. I don’t see how you can argue with this.

You rail about the need to flat sand Manji plates but you also say that on “an all purpose harp” (whatever that is) “light shining at the end of the tunnel” …. is not a problem in and of itself. Aren’t you flat sanding the plated to eliminate leaks? So if there is a leak, why not fix it? So you’re saying that if you build a harp with a leak at the end of the 1 hole, but it doesn’t affect performance, it’s OK – you won’t bother to fix it. But if I build a brand new Manji and praise the quality of the components by stating that there are no leaks – you disagree! Huh?

And finally, with regard to doing REPAIR WORK on a Manji reed plate vs. a reed plate with riveted reeds – profiling and embossing is CUSTOMIZATION, not repair work. I said nothing about how easy or difficult it is to customize Manji reed plates. You say replacing a reed is really easy – just torque it off and use a screw to put in a new one. You left out the part about drilling holes in both the reed and the reed plate and making sure that they are perfectly centered. Now if you have a Suzuki HRT-10 Reed Replacement Kit (very expensive) it’s a piece of cake. But compared to replacing a riveted reed that already has a hole in both the reed and reed plate and very often still has the rivet in the donor reed, replacing a welded reed is significantly more work and there is much more than can go wrong. So I stand by my original statement that “guys who do repair work MIGHT NOT like working on welded reeds”.

I think you are disagreeing just to be disagreeable and frankly I don’t get it.



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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com

Last Edited by florida-trader on May 22, 2013 6:43 AM
HarpNinja
3323 posts
May 22, 2013
6:50 AM
If your comb is flat, you should never see a leak on any harp except maybe the one draw on a MB long slot. This is usually eliminated by making the comb without rivet cut outs.

If you are seeing any other leaks, than something is not flat. To further complicate the issue, not seeing a leak doesn't mean everything is flat either. While it has taken me a long time to measure some of these things, you have to find ways of measuring flatness to prove flatness.

For example, you can assemble a Golden Melody with warped reedplates to a comb and not see light even though you know the mating surface is not flat. In addition, you can't see gaps along the tines due to shadows, or possible leaks from self-tapping screws.


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Mantra Customized Harmonicas
My Website
Gnarly
583 posts
May 22, 2013
7:11 AM
Yes, the HRT is pricey, but it makes the reed replacement very fast and accurate.
I don't mind using donor reeds with rivets attached, but you can't do that with Suzuki harmonicas.
I think Andrew is probably really good at replacing reeds.
arzajac
1055 posts
May 22, 2013
8:48 AM
Hi Tom.

I thought this was about Manji reedplates. I was not trying to be provocative and I'm sorry you feel that way.

To be specific, I reckon the most significant thing I wanted to say is that Manji reedplates do need to be flat-sanded. I spent years wading through harp-tech information and some of it is correct and some of it isn't.

The fact is, that's the problem with the state of harp tech instruction today. I really felt the need to express my opinion which is different than yours because I think it could avoid a lot of frustration for some people. People are hesitant to flat sand Manji (or Meisterklasse) reedplates because of the beautiful plating.

Getting down to your specific question about that particular reedplate, I don't know if I would have flatsanded it. Probably. How did it play?

I use my mouth to help track down airleaks. If I find an airleak, I fix it. The presence of light at the end of the slot can show me where the leak is, but there are other places for the leak to be - and they don't show up on a light test. What if you have a leaky hole 3 but there is no light at the end of the slot? The leak may be between holes 2 and 3 or 3 and 4. No light test will show that.

Here's what I do to find it:


I made that video in February for some friends.... The second half has nothing to do with airleaks....

I've tried not to make this a personal attack, and I know it can be interpreted as one. I'm sorry about that.

Also, Brendan Power has a video about replacing Suzuki reeds. This was before the Suzuki kit. You need a drill press and a reed wrench. The holes don't have to be perfectly centered. You make the hole in the reed pad large enough to wiggle the reed up and down to get it in the right spot and then you rotate the pad to center the reed.

It's a lot easier to learn than using rivets, actually. If I had to learn only one way to replace a reed, it would be that method (screw it!)

That's all I got to say about that... This issue could go on forever and turn ugly(er). I've said what I have to and will take responsibility for it. That being said, I'm not going to escalate or otherwise add to this thread. It is what it is.

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Last Edited by arzajac on May 22, 2013 8:51 AM
florida-trader
305 posts
May 22, 2013
9:30 AM
Andrew. The harp played very nicely, but I did find your video very informative. Thanks.

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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com

Last Edited by florida-trader on May 22, 2013 9:31 AM


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