Working with sax players. I’m interested in some thoughts/advice on this subject. I’ve played with a lot of them and enjoy doing so. They are, from my experience, usually very accommodating. It does present some challenges and opportunities for us. I’ve worked with one a lot recently that is a serious pro and the intimidation factor creeps in every time. It’s usually in some form of a voice on my shoulder saying “you better bring it or get out of the way”. My band mates like to give me some sly raised eyebrow snicker look that means I’m prepped for the frying pan. All good, I channel pressure and tend to respond well. Knowing a good bit about what I’m doing certainly helps. I find that my usual commitment to listening listening listening is at a premium because sax addresses a lot of the same musical territory that harp does. I love horn lines but getting them together (without rehearsal) is hard to accomplish. I can do most lines but I usually don’t go there because they have to be spot on. I lean on what I do well as well as what the sax doesn’t, rhythm and chords, particularly B3 style octave/vibrato. Any thoughts, strategies or stories from your experience?
Thoughts: in general, I find it too limiting to "lean on what I do well", whether it's music or otherwise. That carries only so far, and then I feel like I'm becoming claustrophobic, and I need to "get out". Another way of saying this might be, I find a willingness to take risks, not reckless risks you understand, but risks based on what I already have, to be my road to greater freedom and creativity. Are there mistakes? Of course. So what? No mistakes equals no growth as far as I'm concerned. I remember what Miles said about playing "wrong" notes: when you play a wrong note (not if, but when, mind you), it's the note that follows that determine whether it's good or bad. Take some chances. You'll love yourself for it.
@harp-er, take risks. Absolutely, and living on the edge is stock and trade for me. But I would apply that primarily to solos and not with the point of my post, working WITH sax players. Leaning on what I do well refers to choices I make to compliment.
As a sax player I haven't had much experience playing with harmonica players. I do remember turning up the the Elwood blues jam and seeing about a dozen blokes all ready with their artillery belts on...now that was intimidating :) cheers, Mark. http://kingcasey.com.au/
Being a sax and harp player, I find that the sax goes down better than harp with the punters. You can't just play a ton of blues harp numbers, then one sax number, they'll always want more. So, I guess, when I'm in harp mode, I'm competing with myself in sax mode sometimes.
In our band we have a sax player.. and he plays harp sometime as well. It is easier to play with sax than another harp player in lots of ways. However, when it comes times for most sax solos, I stop playing harp. We do have some horn lines we do together, and when we solo together we have a bit where we trade licks and then at the end we play together, I tend to stick to single notes played as cleanly as possible (getting as close to a horn sound as I can out of my rig). We both have a pretty good idea how the other thinks after all these years, and that really helps when we play together.. we both steal each other's lines and then play them right before the other one would to force the other one to come up with something new.. all in good fun! I guess it is like any other instrument, if the player is good, and willing to play with you, then a good time can be had by all!
I play harp and sax. I've played both with others. I completely agree with Walter: " However, when it comes times for most sax solos, I stop playing harp. We do have some horn lines we do together, and when we solo together we have a bit where we trade licks and then at the end we play together, I tend to stick to single notes played as cleanly as possible (getting as close to a horn sound as I can out of my rig)." ---------- ---------- /Greg
oh i got it, all you gotta do is play a chro with massive octaves, huge tone, super cool licks, an impeccable sense of time, hips like a snake... and drink red wine while you play
Frank -that was fun and would be a great tune to work out with a sax player. I'd have to put a few practice sessions in to remember it all but it is a nice groove. A lot like The Work Song.
That said, I am a little confused by some replies here, maybe I didn't explain myself very well in my original post (sure wouldn't be the first time). I am talking about sitting in, not a regular band. If I'm in a band with a sax player we work out lots of parts together. Perfect horn lines with me as trumpet and trombone. Been there and it's awesome. What if you don't work with the sax player regularly? That gets tricky because you do cover a lot of the same territory. The issues are different than sharing space with keys or guitar.
Last Edited by Littoral on Apr 15, 2013 10:52 AM
I would fess up and humbly admit to the pro sax guy that you are intimidated by his excellent chops... Also, if he doesn't already know your level of musicianship - be honest with that information too and maybe ask him advise on how he feels you two can complement each other. As you know - communication is a great way to kinda figure out who the schmucks are and who is going to give a friendly vibe when you play together.
Last Edited by Frank on Apr 15, 2013 11:10 AM
It's not unusual for harp players to be initmidated by sax players and for many harp players, many of them are not very together musicially in terms of getting their time straight, knowledge of basic music theory (yes, that most CERTAINLY does include knowledge of scales), and knowledge of where all of the notes that are available in their harps, from not only unbent notes, but bends and overblows as well.
For many harp players, that also means that the intonation and articulation of EVERY note you play, bent, unbent, overblows, etc., HAS to be dead on the money and for many harp players, unfortunately, this is too often not the case.
I've gigged with bands with horns, and had to learn all of the horn parts, from the dynamics to the harmony lines necessary, etc., which meant not just listening to solos.
What I've learned to do from working in a band that had 5 horns was to be part of that horn section learning EVERYTHING what I just mentioned and then some, which also meant for a time, not listening to ANY harp at all and understanding how the horn parts work.
When you have real experience with this stuff, it will help you to get together with that horn player(s) and you can help direct him to what kind of line you want played or he can do that with you and there are times where you may be told something like from a horn player, "I'm gonna start at the root note, you hit that line from the 3rd," and for those of you who are theory challenged (which too often accurately describes the average harp player), let's say the line is in the key of C, the line starts with him playing C, the root note, and then you would be playing E, which is the 3rd of the chord, and then you'd be playing the line in harmony.
Yes, this means you gotta listen to blues WITHOUT ANY HARP in it at all, and listen to stuff that has horn sections, like Bobby Blue Bland, Little Milton, BB King, Albert King, etc., and study them closely, not only for the notes being played, but also the dynamics and the harmony of the lines as well so at least you have some sort of frame of reference. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Bob, thanks, and well said. I'm mostly there with everything you said, intonation especially and theory enough to handle the chord structure conversation. I do need to have a much better ear for harmony. Bobby Bland, Little Milton, BB King and Albert King are all standard for me, I'd add T-Bone, and your suggestion to really study them for the dynamics and the harmony of the lines is a great idea. I thought about you initiating this post and I appreciate your effort to share what you have learned. By the way, I'm way south these days but I go way back to Cambridge Harmonica Orchestra days and got my first lesson from PT Beauregard.
Last Edited by Littoral on Apr 16, 2013 1:59 PM
I've fooled around on my Studio Mini app on my ipod trying to create horn lines with my harps. Like BBQ Bob says, all notes have to be dead on, or it sounds like crap. When you get it right, it sounds kinda awesome... ---------- myspace
there's a sax player on the local scene who i sometimes have to play with at jams or sitting in with bands. it's not a fun time. he plays his instrument well, but has no sense of when not to play. plays over the solos, plays over the vocals, never stops. he's like the stereotype harp player.
Here is what I recommend. At our local blues jam, there are two other friends of mine that play harp. Whenever a sax player shows up, we look at each other and say, "I dealt with the sax player last week, man up buddy, it's your turn this week"! I am sure the sax player is probably thinking the same thing to himself-lol
In my band I have a Sax player who plays Bari and Tenor. People always say when the sax or harp solo gets rollin with one or the other behind one another the sound is unstoppable. I m a huge early Otis Rush fan so pick up the Cobra Recordings with LW and Sax on alot of songs together. I really enjoy having sax especially Bari where it is not an out front inst. just takes of the lower end of the sound. Nowadays I feel naked without the sax at gigs. They are very similar inst and many times on a gig during a guitar solo or something I will cue the sax on horn lines to play and we can usually come up with some powerful sounds. It is just like playing behind a singer and guitar you just have to be patient and relaxed. I always loved early 30's Ragtime and Swing when the clarinet, sax, trumpet all solo over eachother and the same effect can happen in that lineup. As long as the sax player is workin with the same idea it can go over very well.
Harmonica key choice and playing position is CRITICAL> Low key harps do work well with sax-but regular key diatonics in third position and chromatic harps can sound great as well. It does require SOME musicality,but it's really more about not clashing and finding your place within the music.
Last Edited by tmf714 on Apr 16, 2013 5:55 PM
When I play w/sax player and/or horns, I will join in on the ensemble stuff adding a harmony note, as long as these are simple and clear lines.
The harmony I add is created through my knowledge of theory and is done in the moment.
At these times, as I play, I will listen HARD to the horns and make sure that my harmonica is pulled into exact pitch with them. It's kinda like splitting my brain in 2 - one part strong listener and the other part note choice.
Will not play during any horn solos and will turn around to give horn player the hairy eyeball if he starts playing during my solos.
One of my best times was at Augusta Heritage Blues and Swing Week, in which the Swing Week instructors asked me to join their "all star" band for Swing Week Dance at the pavilion. They worked off of charts and gave me one to site read. Really felt like part of the horn section. ---------- The Iceman
You think we harp players are crazy - When playing with a Sax player that you don't know, It is safe to assume that he is crazier then when you consider the instrument he chooses play :) So, your best strategy may be to out crazy him or her?
@Littoral --- As someone who was also part of the Cambridge Harmonica Orchestra, what Pierre Beauregard did was basically showing how simple parts make for a much bigger sound and the arrangements were essentially big band horns becoming big band harmonica. In other words, simple parts forcing you to become a more disciplined player, something that most harp players RARELY ever tend to be.
Along with learning horn parts from blues artists who are backed by them like those you've mentioned, there's also the entire New Orleans sounds from guys like Fats Domino, Smiley Lewis, Professor Longhair, Allan Toussaint, Dave Bartholomew, and R&B/soul groups like The Meters, plus learning from the jump blues guys like Roy Brown, Wynonie Harris, Big Joe Turner, to early rock pioneers like Little Richard as well, and also guys not only like T-Bone, but also JOhnny Guitar Watson, Guitar Slim, Pee Wee Crayton and Lowell Fulson as well.
That means NOT listening to harp, but horns, and NOT JUST LISTENING TO SOLOS.
If you're gonna be sitting in with a band with horns, make sure you pay VERY CLOSE ATTENTION to what the horn players are doing, but it is VERY IMPORTANT to listen to artists who use horns as part of their backup band like those I've mentioned and you are gonna have to avoid automatically hitting throat vibratos and warbles, which are too often the thing harp players will automatically do.
These are gonna be things that tabs are gonna be totally useless for and requires you to acquire better listening skills, AKA listening with bigger ears, basically meaning that you are going to need to pay attention to EVERYTHING, and there's no such thing as a detail too small, too boring, or too unimportant to listen to.
One of the best horn players based here in Boston, Sax Gordon, I have a great time with because whenever we're on the bandstand together, we work like a real horn section, which is something harp players often have a hard time doing because they too often do all the stereotypical things that other musicians hate about them doing. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Harmonica have some minor advantages over sax. E.g. harmonica allows much faster tonguing ("ta-ka-ta-ka") and much faster diatonic runs. So if you are working with sax as horn section try to play less articulation and less attack. If you have some sort of competition play more staccatto, especially fast tonguing and play some fast diatonic staff. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Boris, I generally can't move my mouth as fast as a sax player can move his fingers.
Chris M a while back here mentioned a sax player said I can play anything you can, and he said "play this mother F*&(er" and played some chords. I would hazard to say that is not a good way to get along with the sax player.
It appears from some of the responses that the harp is once again to be viewed as an inferior instrument compared to the saxaphone. Why is that?? I still personally feel that the harmonica works best on it OWN merits and doesn't have to necessarily follow "horn" rules all the time. Is it just me??!!??
Sir, I am not addressing the OP, but rather the posts that(possibly unintentionally) are alluding that "most" harp players need to do XYZ before they dare stand in the presence of the mighty sax player. Just my 2cent observation. Like all other opinions you can chose to either glean from it or toss it into the dung heap. Just saying...
walterharp it need some practice, but it's easy. Start triplets from 4 draw. Just move your harp and breath. Simple rudiment (4) (5) 5 (5) (6) 6 (6) (7) 7 (7) (8) 8 (8) (9) 9 (9) (10) 10 and backwards (10) (9) 9 (9) (8) 8 etc
And again fast double tonguing and staccato passages are PITA for sax players. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by boris_plotnikov on Apr 17, 2013 10:06 PM
Example. Going back to some favorite horns and this one has plenty of educational value. The odds of ever taking it for a live test drive isn't likely -nobody's gonna cover this vocal. But working on these phrases and dynamics has been A LOT of fun.
Last Edited by Littoral on Apr 18, 2013 7:50 AM
@CarlA --- Like it or not, there are some things saxes can do better (or to be realistic, easier) than a harp player can and vica versa. One thing to an extent a harp player can do that a sax player can't do is play chords and double stops (which was a reason why Willie Dixon preferred having a harp player over a sax player in his touring bands).
A big factor here is that harp players often lack good overall musicianship and for the average harp player, they look at the soloing ability as the mark of good musicianship, but it is MUCH MORE than that. and along with soloing ability, it is also how good the player's time is (and the vast majority of players who are NOT pros, their time is often HORRIBLE, and that's putting it very politely), lack of theory knowledge, lack of understanding of basic chord structures and harmony, not knowing when to NOT play.
There are times when you work with horns comping a vocalist or guitar player a note will need to held out longer than an entire 4-beat measure and many harp players can't do 1/2 measure (mainly because they're playing with so much unnecessarily hard breath force that they're totally gassed) and that's just for starters.
Harp players generally tend to lack another important ingredient and that's strong musical discipline and often times this is quite apparent when you observe them in open jams (but most jammers also lack that as well, which is why most pros don't take them seriously).
Many times lines will be having a very percussive attack/effect, but never assume that automatically means chording, because often times it doesn't mean that at all.
It means you will need to go far beyond the usual things harp players too often go into automatic pilot with and often times sound horribly out of place/out of their element on, and this is something that takes TONS of hard work to do and the usual way that harp players tend to do things, you're gonna have to flush that down the toilet and do the kind of woodshedding most harp players NEVER do. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Just to introduce an actual practical consideration :) if you are not using a chrom what position do you use? I find that 1st pos can get you close to that horn sound and feel, especially if you can use a B-flat or low F.
I have been working on Glen Miller's "In the Mood" and I find that is lays out pretty well in second position.
AS a trombone player I play mostly in F, Bb and Eb when playing with a band or brass quintet. When you play with a classical orchestra you play the sharp keys (G,D,A) and count lots of rests.
timeistight Yes, playing almost any sorts of chromatic runs on harmonica (even chromatic) is not as easy as with sax. Except plaing at the same hole e.g. fast run 4 (4)' (4) *4 and backward. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Since horn players are often going to play in the flatted keys, one should always have those harps to match, but with horns, if I'm playing as part of the sax section, I never use stock E, Eb, F or F# and always go for the Low E, Low Eb, Low F and Low F because on those higher pitched harps, it makes it very difficult to play with a sax like attack and the low pitch harps always works better for that.
Some phrases are always gonna be tough regardless of what position you use, even on chromatics because of breath shifts, and if you tend to play with a lot of breath force all the time, that makes it 10 times more difficult, especially if the breath force of your draw notes are considerably harder than your blow notes, which too often the average player is big time guilty of doing. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Hi guys, I like the sax alot, but have had difficulty playing with them, too. I understand all the reasons for it. Just want to throw my 2 cents in on the topic.. As a rule now, I stay away. Unless the part is easy, like comping, or I can blend in without drawing too much attention away from the groove, and feel, of what the song is trying to convey..I usually do alright. The sax is able to do more for the song. The sax is like having all the harps, in all the different positions, stringed together...and you can only blow! The harp is a dynamic instrument and needs to be placed very carefully. Or you will alienate your sax friends. A friend sax player told me he gets frustrated when harp players try to "help" with the horn parts. They tend to think they are in the right scale or position, but only end up playing discordant notes. When I think of horns...WITHOUT harp...here's who comes to mind. Someone who would be just fine WITH a sax, but chose not to play...
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Why is it that we all just can't get along?<
Last Edited by Mojokane on Apr 20, 2013 1:17 PM
@Mojokane, I appreciate your thoughts but don't get the deference to sax as an instrument. I think you/we just have be skilled enough to do what we're supposed to do. BBQ Bob spelled it out.
played with a sax thurs. as usual the dickhead turned out to be the guitarist. i wanted to do dirty water for the boston bombing (it was a fund raiser) and mr clean said oh no thats too hard the other guys cant do the changes. so i say ok just play an elmore james groove and we decide on E it was absolutely awful and slower than ray charles blues. the mic was being sabotaged so i couldnt sing or play. the sax guy (a super nice zz topp guy) was standing next to me and handed me his mic (i was playing acoustically on a vocal mic) so the guy who runs the jam fixes the mic, then lex luther wont let me sing anymore and decided to do the stupid shuffle copout stuff. he says C asks if i have an F (now if guitarist start doing your thinking for you its a setup) so i take out an F and a Bb (didnt bring chroms, always bring your chroms so you can play in F and C). well it turned out the groove was a weird one and the other string guys had trouble, and i played mostly the Bb harp in 3rd (always pull out two harps they will do this to you)the last number was one el duce' was going to sing, i suggested Eb since the sax guy was so nice, and he was eager about it. no kung fu couldnt have that, so he goes hey you got a G harp? im like yeah so again take out a G and a C (never trust these guys they will pull a minor on you) and sure enough he cranks so loud the G harp cant be heard and im listening with my finger in my ear, son of a bitch! its minor so i play the rest with a C harp in 3rd. had i brought my Bb and C chroms i would have been fine. expect the unexpected and never trust a guitarist.
One of the issues when playing with horn players and saxophone in particular, that nobody here seems to have touched on is when they don't want to play traditional brass type riffs. When a horn player wants you to play along in the fashion the BBQ Bob states as part of a horn section, it can be a really great experience and sound superb. Often though sax players will want to play more modern jazz style fills and solos. This can make for a really bad sound if you try to play along with the harp, as so many things can clash. In those cases I tend to just comp on the rhythm, just play the main motif or simply sit out altogether. You just have to listen to the players in question and pick which ones you can work well with and which ones you can't.
Here in Boston, we have the well known jazz music school Berklee College Of Music and you see plenty of sax players from there (the great Gordon Beadle AKA Sax Gordon went there), and the more modern jazz school is basically where groove is more implied than actually being played, plus 75% of them tend to be David Sanborn/Kenny G wannabees and for blues, that's the wrong thing to be playing because that stuff doesn't fit the groove and feel at all, and those are the things where there is NO horn section at all, unlike the sound of Big Band Jazz, which is WAY different, where there ARE actual parts that HAVE to be played or it's a total mess.
A number of them tend to have this smug attitude thinking they can do anything, but trust me, I've humbled the more times than I'd like to admit, but there ARE players who do much more than this.
A guy like a Sax Gordon is a totally different animal than this because he's able to play ALL of the things those guys play, but FAR more stuff that most of them will never learn in 100 lifetimes. He's originally from California and he saw his idol, the great jump blues saxman Big Jay McNeely, and he plays with many legendary blues musicians and knows his stuff cold and then some and has even told me he's taken stuff from harp players to which I told him that's going in full circle because many of the harp greats have taken stuff from sax players.
Too many harp players just aren't musically together because in order to make this thing work, you HAVE to have a working knowledge of theory, have GOOD time, do sh*tloads of listening to non-harp blues stuff where there are horns and horn sections employed and learn ALL of the parts being played, and that means you're gonna need to study by the truckload for a big frame of reference and there's no short cuts for that (plus along the way you'll discover where many harp licks are really coming from along the way). ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
There's one thing you gotta remember when you work with a horn is that a horn can adjust to a pitch of a just tuned instrument wheras a piano or a guitar cannot do so and with blues, I always use harps tuned to JI. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
