Last night I arrive to my all acoustic band gig. I was going to show up a minute before the gig and my bandmates know to have the soundguy set me up with a vocal mic on a stand. My bandmates and the soundguy were on the stage. As soon as I walked up,
Soundguy: "Don't you have a harmonica mic?"
I was already in a bad mood and felt my chest puffing out.
Me: "You mean a bullet? It is not the right sound for this band"
Soundguy: "I've never worked with a harp player who didn't use a bullet."
Me: "There are two types of sound for a harp. Electric, using a bullet, and acoustic, using a vocal mic. This is an acoustic band."
Soundguy: "You should just plug your bullet directly into the PA"
Me: "I hate that sound"
Soundguy: "That's when you roll off the highs."
Me: "I do not mean to be a jerk, it is just how I see it."
Bandmember: "Rubin's a straight shooter."
Soundguy: "I've been running sound since 1978. I've worked with more harp players than you've ever seen."
Me: "I doubt that."
And we left it at that. He actually turned out to be a fine soundman and even came up to me midset to see if I was happy.
For years I've had soundguys confused about why on some shows I need both an amp and a vocal mic for different songs and quite often had to forsake a vocal mic to make room on the board for another instrument, but this was a first. And I've been playing in clubs since 1985. I've seen more soundguys...
tmf714 --- That is the cold, hard, brutal truth in a nutshell and that's why I make damned sure I'm at the gig AT LEAST one hour before showtime or more to head off this kind of stuff.
This sound guy is far more used to players going the amplified route 24/7 than the acoustic route, which in a way, is somewhat unusual, but at least he's far better than the vast majority of sound people that I've ever dealt with over the years. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
A band is like any other job and sometimes life interferes. Maybe mike had to take the kids to the school play, the dog to the vet or visit the clinic about a nasty rash ;)
Regardless, it’s not like he was the drummer asking the band to set up his whole kit or the guitar player asking to have is pedal board and rack of five guitars set up and sound checked. Not that occasionally this might have to be done to help a fellow coworker. He told everyone in advance that he’d be running late and asked for nothing more than a vocal mic on a stand, a simple request.
It sounds like the engineer was just trying to impress with his knowledge. He may have worked with a lot of harp players but, he obviously hasn’t paid attention or, just thinks he knows how everything is supposed to be.
I mean, does the engineer ask the singer “where are your wireless in ear monitors, I’ve worked with a lot of singers and they all use them.”
"This story is about a soundguy being a know it all and telling me how to get my sound.
You guys took a left turn at Albuquerque."
I don't think it's a left turn. You showed up late and in a bad mood. The soundguy made a bad assumption in lack of other information. (Couldn't your bandmates have straightened him out?) From there it looks like escalating defensiveness on both your parts.
You could have avoided the whole argument by packing your own preferred microphone to use with this band.
Soundguy: "Don't you have a harmonica mic?"
You: "Yes, indeedy. Please set this Sennhesier 441 up on a stand for me and give it just touch of reverb, my good man."
Soundguy: "Yes, sir. Right away sir."
Last Edited by timeistight on Apr 12, 2013 12:58 PM
it sounds like once he heard you could really play.. he backed off
just recording over the last few nights and the engineer would start talking about Willie Nelson every time I wanted to do an acoustic part on the recordings.
Seriously?? Some of you guys are really trying to tell Michael Rubin he was wrong in this scenario? I've seen some nonsense on this forum, probably posted some myself, but that takes the biscuit.
Enlighten me. When did become written in a sound engineers job description to tell a musician what sound he should use. If he told Doc Watson he should be using a Telecaster instead of a Martin would you defend that? The guy was being rude and unprofessional in the extreme. All he had to do was stick a SM58 in a stand and keep his mouth shut.
I commend Michael for his patience. If that dude had said to me he had worked with more harp players than I had seen and so he know better. I would have gone ballistic but Michael is a better man than I.
BTW, also loved the Bugs reference. I've used it myself often. One of my favorites, along with "What a maroon.", which may have been what Michael was thinking. ---------- LSC
Last Edited by LSC on Apr 12, 2013 1:25 PM
"When did become written in a sound engineers job description to tell a musician what sound he should use."
The soundguy didn't tell him "what sound he should use," he asked "Don't you have a harmonica mic?" Supplying your own mic is one of the best ways of picking your own sound, isn't it?
Whether he's right or wrong, ignorant, rude or not, a soundguy can make or break a gig. My rule number one for soundguys is do everything you can to get along with them, massage their egos and be friendly (bit like dealing with other musicians). Doesn't matter how good you are, they can kill you in an instant, and you may not even know it. ---------- Lucky Lester
I recently did a gig with 6 other bands. 15 mins to set my gear up. 50 watt Meteor miced through the PA.After the first song the sound guy comes up and says "you will have to use the vocal mic" WTF. finished the set. The next band sets up with the guitar player micing his amp with the very same mic i had miced my amp with, and guess what come through the PA loud and clear.Never happen before hope it never happens again.
Last Edited by surfingjack on Apr 12, 2013 4:02 PM
so you show up late for a gig you don't even have a "REAL" instrument you break out a "toy" and expect the sound guy to take you serious ---------- tipjar
Some sound guys don't 'get' harp tone. I did one gig where I played through my amp at the sound check, and the sound guy says 'that sounds really overdriven and distorted'. He was expecting a clean acoustic tone and couldn't get his head around it. I told him yep, that's how I like it, and after he'd heard it in context with the band he was quite happy with it. ---------- Lucky Lester
@timesistight - "The soundguy didn't tell him "what sound he should use," he asked "Don't you have a harmonica mic?" Supplying your own mic is one of the best ways of picking your own sound, isn't it?"
I'm sorry but there's a contradiction there. Michael did pick the mic he wanted for the sound he wanted, a vocal mic. Michael doesn't say but I would bet good money the vocal mic available was an SM58. They are the world's most often used vocal mic and has been for decades. It is not a mic one would think needed to be supplied.
The SM58 is commonly used by harmonica players in an acoustic band setting and many electric bands as well. Greg Heumann customizes SM58s for harmonica because they are commonly used. Jason Ricci and Toots Thielman come to mind. The SM58 therefore could well be considered a harmonic mic, something "soundguy" was obviously ignorant of. The sound guy insisted the correct mic was a bullet in all situations, i.e. telling him what sound Michael should have. He also assumed that all bullet mics were the same, which of course they're not.
Even if for some bizarre reason there was no SM58, basically any mic becomes a harmonica mic, drum mic, guitar mic, kazoo mic, or ass fart mic depending on what is put in front of it.
@didjcripey - I would agree that getting along is super important. Having said that, ultimately a sound engineers job is to make the artist sound good. It is not to tell the artist what sound to create. An engineer insisting an artist use a mic that the artists does not like is going way over the line, especially if there is an acceptable to the artist mic available, and I don't care how much his ego gets bruised. I will also state for the record that people making condescending remarks like, "I've worked with more harp players than you've heard." does not deserve to get their ass kissed.
I've worked as a sound engineer both live and in the studio and I would never in a million years tell an artist what piece of equipment they should use no matter what I thought of the sound. At most, I might suggest something which might make them sound better but only in the ball park of what they were trying to accomplish or maybe to solve a problem like slightly changing a tone setting. And even then it would be a suggestion which if rejected I would immediately accept no matter how wrong I thought it was. I sure as hell wouldn't argue about it.
Stick up for the player, for Pete's sake, especially when the tech is bloody wrong. ---------- LSC ---------- LSC
Okay, I am probably going to regret this, but after spending the last 5 hours with my 2 year old, I have a minute and I am going to take a try replying to this mountain.
To begin with, I find it humorous and ironical that what is a story about someone telling me how to do my job has been responded to with a group of people telling me how to do my job.
TMF714 says:That story is exactly why you don't show up a minute before the gig. Lesson learned-
No, lesson not learned. I would make the exact same choice tonite, and I'll go deeper into why later. But I want to explain, it is my belief that my experience with the sound guy had zero to do with me showing up just before downbeat.
First, what might not have been clear was the mission was accomplished before I arrived. The band and or the sound guy upon the band's instructions had set up a 58.
It wasn't like I arrived a minute before the gig and said, "Wait where's my mic?" and the soundguy said,"They told me to set up a mic, but when they told me you were a harp player, I refused because I wanted to convince you to use the right tool for the job."
None of that. The mic was set up, ready to go. Even though I told the band I would show up at the last minute, I arrived 15 minutes before the supposed starting time, we talked in one minute, checked the mic in one minute and the show, as often happens, started 45 minutes later.
My "showing up one minute before the gig" had zero bearing on the soundguy's belief system.
My chest puffed out response to his opening lines likely caused the situation to blow up further than it needed to and I admitted to as much in the connotations of my original story.
Timeistight says: You could have avoided the whole argument by packing your own preferred microphone to use with this band.
Actually, I often do carry a spare vocal mic in my car for just such emergencies. However, I like 57s and 58s. The band brings their own condensers to the show, so I am the only one in need of a vocal mic.
Am I unreasonable to expect most clubs will have one 57 or 58, one stand and one xlr cable? Do I really need to avoid this argument by carrying my own mic, especially considering the argument has occured once in 28 years of performing at least 3 times per week?
I say no.
And, if I handed him my preferred mic, a 57 or 58, don't you think he would have said, "We got those. Don't you have a harmonica mic?" The argument would have still happened.
Now to the larger implied statements:
"A professional musician should always arrive an hour before a gig to leave time for troubleshooting."
I actually agree with this and have been the butt of many jokes in Austin, where the average band straggles one late member after another into the club 15 minutes to 30 minutes after downbeat, grabbing beers and messing around, finally starting an hour late. They think I am the most anal Northeast guy they know.
However, things have changed since the 2 year old daughter arrived. All 4 of my bands understand to tell me as early as possible when the very latest appropriate moment for me to arrive at a gig is. They understand I have to make money at teaching lessons, and since most students cannot take a lesson until after work, I will often teach until late at night to try and pay the bills.
They understand my wife works. They understand she can often be called to work late on the day of the gig, just before the gig. They understand I may cancel. And although I work my behind off to make sure I never cancel a student on the same day, my students also get that sometimes I have to make it up to them later.
They understand that the babysitter costs money and the latest the babysitter can arrive before I get in the car to get to the gig, the less money I lose by the end of the night. (Oh yes, lose. An average Austin gig pays $10 per man, a great one $50. $150 is one for the books. Go ahead, stay in your towns that pay more, I like it here.)
My bands understand I may cancel at the last minute. They are cool with that. My wife, bands, babysitters, students, my wife's employers are my child's village and they are aware of that and consider it an honor.
After living in Austin for over 20 years, the audiences, clubs and most of the soundguys are also the village and hopefully you feel this in your town as well, they are aware that they are the village, they know me and my family and love, respect and give gratitude for all I have given this community by cutting me a break now that I need it.
So if taking the break in the form of showing up just before a gig is unprofessional, then I am unprofessional and I am just going to have to live with that.
The next precept I challenge is that I should bend over backwards be nice to the sound guy.
I am not sure what I believe when it comes to the universal questions, but I do believe in the ripple effect. Every action, positive or negative, affects everyone else. However, a negative action does not necessarily cause a negative reaction, just a reaction.
I do believe you should respect everyone, because the guy you flip off today is your plumber tomorrow. Let's call it plumber's karma.
As I said, my inability to remain cool when he started in telling me what I was doing wrong (his first sentence "Don't you have a harmonica mic?" implied incompetence and wrongness on my part) was probably the thing that made the next minute's conversation uncomfortable. I could have smiled and gently told him the same thing. I agree I could have handled it better.
But if you want to talk about being professional, I should not have to curb my enthusiasm in order not to rile up a revengeful soundguy.
In other words, you should not have to be nice to a soundguy for him to be a professional and make you sound as good as he could. (which, to give him credit as I did in the first post, I believe he did make that effort.) A pro should make you sound good no matter what.
Just like no matter how mad I was, I still tried to make the best music I could.
That said, this is not a perfect world, people do carry revenge in their hearts long enough to take the harp completely out of the mix, so I try real hard to play nice. But I mess up sometimes and I forgive myself for that.
Michael, it's silly and I'm sorry that you had to defend your reason for showing up when you did. I agree it's not the point of this thread but that's just how things go here sometimes.
Dead right you shouldn't have to bend over backwards for the sound guy, or curb your enthusiasm, and its his job and responsibility to make you sound good, however, my point, which was in no way an attack on you, was merely to suggest that in our imperfect world, diplomacy and patience is often the best approach when it comes to dealing with some of these guys, especially if you're not dealing with top professionals.
Piss one off enough, and its all over for you for that gig.
---------- Lucky Lester
Last Edited by didjcripey on Apr 13, 2013 1:26 AM
Hi Michael-- I've read the replies to date, all thoughtful.
A long time ago, our five-piece blues band scored a gig playing in a 400 seat night club; a club with aspirations of greatness. It had a tower of speakers on both sides of the stage, and a soundman to run them. The club`s usual music was rock and pop.
We showed up on a Sunday afternoon to do a sound check for that week`s gig. The soundman adjusted levels here and there, always burying my harp deep in the mix. I and the rest of the band told him the harp needed to be louder. Once the levels were set, we did a rehearsal with the whole band playing a song.
I still couldn`t hear the harp. On a whim, I turned my microphone`s volume control completely off, while making the usual moves I`d make playing harp. It looked like I was playing,
The soundman did not move or notice or do anything to adust the sound. That taught me something, I`m not sure what. (Some people hate harp?)
Back to your situation-- You were ill treated at your gig.
Soundmen, like all who work at a gig but aren`t playing or singing, are there to serve the music. They may be musicians, they may not be. Either way, they must respect the performing musicians` choice of equipment and character of sound. Your soundman didn`t, and should have.
I wonder if their is a blog online where soundman talk about musicians being a bunch of wussies?
I show up an hour before all my gigs. I also make nice with the sound person if one is provided. I tried not to show up in a bad mood and if the sound person says something that MR considered "snarky", I don't answer him with snark. So who started the ripple, the guy who showed up late in a a bad mood or the guy trying to get you ready to roll in 5 minutes? Frankly, alls well that ended well in the story.
Mike, I understand where you are coming from, but your post reveals more to this story than just a sound man.
Last Edited by 6SN7 on Apr 13, 2013 4:53 AM
I have a big event tonight that comes with a promoter who also runs the PA and I'm pretty sure he doesn't like harp (players). If it's because most harp players are hacks then I get it, why make kazoo louder. I don't like having to wade through the earned reputation. That may be just me, ok. How I'll negotiate tonight is the same as always, be nice and try to sound so good they want me in the mix. It doesn't help that we can't reasonably overcome the volume limitations with stage gear (like guitar can). We'll see how it goes. I shall report.
Last Edited by Littoral on Apr 13, 2013 5:13 AM
Could it be that (in defence on the FOH guy) that your band mates tell him to set up a 58, he thinks vocalist, you show up as a Harp player he's starts thinking Vocalist/Harp player "Okay I've got his vocal mic but I don't have a bullet but ipsp facto all harp players carry a Bullet" and he wants to do right by you and cover both bases and out comes the offending question which challenges your concept of why the mic is there in the first place you are an artist after all and he's just concerned with how many balanced and unbalanced mic/line inputs he has to deal with. Just sayin
Last Edited by Whistler on Apr 13, 2013 6:02 AM
I'm with you Michael. I'm a little surprised that this situation would've presented much of a challenge for the sound guy. If he has indeed worked with alot of harpers, I would think that he's encountered more than one of 'em playing straight into a 58. It's either the weirdest coincidence, or he was miffed about having to do one more check late. Mebbe you got in the way of his pre-show joint break.
I do not mean to pick on Mr. Rubin. As blues harp players we have all had issues with sound guys who may be ignorant about or even biased against harp players. If you know there will be a sound guy at the gig tonight -- and particularly if you have not worked with him before -- it would seem prudent and wise to get there early and make certain there are no issues.
The gig is the important thing, and you need to respect the gig.
To be very clear, I am not attacking Michael Rubin. I understand his issues. Players disrespecting the gig has been an issue for me lately, particularly showing up late (or not at all) or leaving early. I was thinking of that when I posted.
sound guy aside, i find it very irritating when guitar players and others feel the need to tell all the ways my rig should be different. i should play with a bullet, i should get a tube amp, blah blah blah. everybody's an expert. like it never occurs to them that i may actually know what i'm doing, and have selected the components of my rig over years of experimentation to arrive at this point where i have everything i need and it all works great and i sound way better than i ought to...
ok, i feel better now. good to have that off my chest.
Yes on the other side of the coin, if harp players lack respect, the sound guy gets no respect. It is not easy to be a good soundman and even out that guitar player who wants to shred a marshal stack in a 100 seat club. Our and guy goes with us and is an equal member of the band. That said, when clubs provides their own soundman, some are great and others not so much. Part of this must come from not knowing the band. A good soundman plays the board, places the mics etc like an instrument, needs to be able to adjust to strange things (gremlins. feedback). If they know the tunes, they can figure out when solos have to come up etc. My only problem with our soundman is sometimes he mixes the harp in too loud! (an aspiring harp player him).
Update: Show was a stunning success, a magical night. It was a big festival and the final jam had 9 instruments on stage together and the mix, per all reports, was perfect. On stage, of course, it was the familiar experience of playing on faith. I could hear everyone if I tried but that's to be expected. Great show and kudos to the sound men.
Last Edited by Littoral on Apr 14, 2013 6:48 AM
A relevant point that seriously discredits the sound guy in Michael´s tale is that a bullet stright to PA is a crappy combo. If he´s been running sound since -78 and not noticed that, well ...
